Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

[Dwip]

Several things in this debate:- Ten Paws, it shall be noted, also misses medium armor. Although the whole reason to go medium in Morrowind was because the stuff from the Adamantium Armor ploojin was totally OP, and the unique stuff wasn't any worse.- I will believe the greaves thing when I see it, though I would note that A) there are several suits of armor in vanilla Oblivion that were one piece; B) the number of armor pieces we got in Morrowind was completely and totally OP, and Oblivion was only somewhat better (though a large part of that was sigil stones, but enough Chameleon has always been broken); C) What actually matters the most is how well the armor in Skyrim is balanced for Skyrim, which is to say that both FO3 and F:NV had all kinds of one piece armor that worked pretty well because it was balanced against itself well.- Re: level scaling, I can't remember at this late date, but I could swear that Bethesda said at least a couple of times that the way Oblivon level scaling worked was completely and totally by design. No matter what the case, one only has to play through Fallout 3 to know that they basically learned their lesson on that one, and by Fallout 3 we're back to what's essentially but not quite the Morrowind system. I have no reason to believe Skyrim would be any different from this.- Re: storytelling in Oblivion/TES, I could probably write an article on this, but I think a bunch of things: A) Samson's probably right - they had to do a hatchet job on some stuff, and FG/MG got the nod (and IIRC there was supposed to be an Elder Council faction as well that we obviously never got); B) Historically, FG/MG questlines have been astonishingly bland - Morrowind's, from what I remember of them, were even worse, obviously worse than any single other faction in that game - so it's not as if this is some radical new departure for Oblivion; C) In a lot of ways, the quality of writing and storytelling for guild quests is actually much better in Oblivion as a whole than in Morrowind - lots less "Go kill some rats in a cave" stuff, with an actual plotline to go with. And, for that matter, neither plotline is actually all that bad, I don't think. The climax of the FG quests is actually pretty cool, it's just that the initial stuff is so lame. OTOH, a lot of the MG quests are pretty cool in and of themselves, and they build to what ought to be a good climax, but the actual ending really sucks (unless you went pure mage, in which case it's pretty damned hard).D) Too, it's not that the MQ is actively bad as a storyline (a little cliche, but enh), it's just that the implementation took too many hits to correspond with the sandbox gameplay - cities don't get attacked for reals, Kvatch is what it is, your mass battles kinda suck, etc. Go play Fallout 3 and see how they dealt with the Enclave. Everything I just mentioned got better, and the writing as a whole is a lot better quality (mostly - the Fallout 3 MQ actively makes no sense if you think about it for very long, but other than that...)E) One of the things that interested me was, you'll notice the FG/MG are no longer the FG/MG in Skyrim, they're called something else. Could be a sign they're taking both of them rather more seriously than in days of yore. I may be reaching, but...- You know, on the subject of lore-rich, we actually got a bunch, it just mostly wasn't in the main game - KOTN and SI are nothing if not lore expansions. Also, stuff like the Mythic Dawn. It's just not Morrowind, which I'd be heartily impressed if they ever topped.TL;DR - I'd be pretty surprised if we got fucked here. We'll see, but this has the hallmarks to me of what Bethesda did with Morrowind - stepped back, thought about it, developed a new set of tools for the job, and then went about creating a superior game.

[Arthmoor]

Wait, there were one piece armors in Oblivion? I can't think of any atm, what were they?Skyrim FG = Companions (I don't like this name). "The Syffim" would have sounded cooler, and that would be lore-approved since that's what they used to be called back in the 2nd era.Skyrim MG = College of Whispers which is lore that was established via the first book. It's a 4th era thing, so Skyrim carries on with that. There doesn't seem to be any mention of whether we'll see the Synod or not, which is the other branch the MG split into. Could be some nifty faction relationships here.If you've paid any attention to Todd's interviews, you'll know he's got his guys trying to bring back more of what people liked from Morrowind without giving up what people liked in Oblivion. So there's definitely hope.Keep some perspective though - Morrowind was produced by a company with 6 people left in it and it was nothing short of insanely good. If Oblivion was better, it's because they had that much more talent available to them. Skyrim has something on the order of 200 developers working on it, 9 of whom are supposedly dedicated JUST to dungeon building. Not to mention the insane number of voice actors they've talked about having.In short, plenty more to like than hate at this point.

[Dwip]

The DB armor is the most obvious example, followed by the various Arena armors. Most of the NPC armors from SI are also one piece.There aren't a whole lot compared to the multi-piece armors, but they are there.

[prettyfly]

Well, the moment I look away...A) Companions...yeah, I agree, the name has clearly been conjured up by a fucktard.B) MG and FG in Oblivion were certainly lackluster, though I can't really compare them to Morrowind as I never played that game.C) I think Bethesda has definitely improved its story telling, but I'm not expecting a story as good as we got in FNV.D) And for that matter, I'm going to trust that they're keeping the whole civil war/political aspect of Skyrim quiet and its actually a major compontent of the game. Otherwise me is very annoyed.F) Yeah, lore rich Oblivion? Of course not. But I trust that Bethesda has come a long way since then (they certainly want us to think so).G) Greaves. Yes, I acknowledge that we don't have any proof of this yet, but if they are cut, I will be pissed. As far as I care that is simplifying, not streamlining. Its not like its going to ruin the experience of the game, obviously, but still...H) Fallout 4; I think it was an improvement on Oblivion, story wise (and in many other ways). but the main quest, as enjoyable as it is (with Broken Steel), the terrible presentation of the Enclave really lets things down. New Vegas sends it to hell. I) As for Skyrim itself, I'm not at all concerned about the quality of the game. Beth knows there stuff and has continuously gotten better, and the stuff that they do mess up can be supplemented for mods, except for the suckers on consoles (teeheehee).

[Thomas Kaira]

To clarify, my gaff with the lore in Oblivion was not with KotN or SI, but with the vanilla game only.KotN and SI, to me, were Bethesda's statement that they screwed up in many areas of Oblivion, lore integration included, and that these two expansions were made to try and repair the damage.It does sound nice that the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild, Imperial funded guilds, would die alongside the Empire, but I too want the Companions to have their name changed. People might mix them up with actual companions that assist you with your adventures.I do agree that the FG and MG in Morrowind were certainly lacking substance, and really, what the hell was I doing for the MG on Vvardenfell? Does anyone know what I accomplished there besides dethroning a loon? In both regards, actually, the FG did the same thing.Yes, we do have to keep in mind that Bethesda had to cut a helluva lot from the game for the sake of the consoles, but I don't like it either way when the dreaded Director's Scissors start to interfere with my stories. :tongue:

[Arthmoor]

Like I said, I don't even have much of a bone to pick about the vanilla game, at least with the main quest. The side stuff could have done with a bit more fleshing out but I'm pretty well convinced that the mad rush for 360 support cost a lot in that area. So it may well be true that KOTN and SI were added to shore things up a bit.

[prettyfly]

I just saw someone, on a non-specific 'Bitch about Skyrim not being good enough for you' thread, after seeing the E3 demo, complain that should be more than one type of horse and more factions in the game. Should I laugh or cry at that?But anyway, I think if mods go to prove anything, more content and variety (so long as its delivered at a decent standard) = a better game. So if they've cut greaves, or spell making or enchanting, as people on bethsoft forums seem to be terrified of, I'll be rather surprised/disappointed/confused at wtf they were thinking. How could they conceive that removing content could make a better game? I'm not saying that its going to ruin the game either, but y'know, its hardly going to help removing established and popular parts (or at least not complained about) of previous games. Actually, how about mods? Problems then go away.

[Arthmoor]

People should be glad we've got horses at all. Todd was pretty iffy on that for awhile, he wasn't sure if they were in this time or not. Funny thing there is that they took horses away in Morrowind, and nobody cried about it. They were in Daggerfall :POf course there need to be more factions, joinable even. FG/MG/TG/DB is bare minimum and we've heard nothing about anything beyond that. At least none got taken away. Assuming the DB hasn't been relegated to unworthy status.I remain very skeptical of claims that greaves are gone. Right now I think they're either not completely finished or the demo just didn't have any handy. Others have also speculated that the whole "Elven Armor" thing is the result of a crafting decision that someone made with the demo character, where the greaves and the chest part were combined that way. If that's actually true, then that would be pretty cool.I have every confidence mods will spring up to correct any shortcomings, especially glaring ones. Like, oh, I dunno, this bullshit with forced finishing moves?

[prettyfly]

Like, oh, I dunno, this bullshit with forced finishing moves?

Yeah, thats one I'll be downloading. btw, I got dibs on Crowded Cities.For that matter, the guy who was complaining about factions wanted dozens of joinable factions. Also, crafting together pieces of armor...that is pretty cool actually.

[Arthmoor]

Dozens? No thanks. That would be way too much to do. Unless there's factions you can't join if you're a member of their enemy factions.

[prettyfly]

And because I like quoting these idiots, I'm currently looking at a thread where the various posters are asking for randomly generated dungeons, believing they will be more interesting than hand placed ones. Even more interestingly, virtually everyone who was in favor of such a system seemed to have joined up during the last month.

[Arthmoor]

Erm. I wouldn't mind a few randomized ones, but not as a staple of the game. WTF is wrong with these people?

[Dwip]

Well, now that we know you can easily VM or DOSBox a copy of Daggerfall, maybe these people ought to go play that to see the folly of their suggestions?

[AndalayBay]

Oh no. NO WAY! I played Daggerfall once, and once only, because I hated the dungeons with a passion unparallelled. Never again. Actually from what I saw, Skyrim's dungeons looked really interesting just the way they are.

[Arthmoor]

Yes, well. Daggerfall's dungeon layouts left much to be desired. Especially since many of them ended up difficult to navigate and the automap was near useless. Bethesda has definitely learned from their past in that respect.

[prettyfly]

Any sane person who watches the dungeons in the trailer and the demo should clearly be able to see that they're the sort of stuff that you can't match (or come even close to matching) with randomly generated levels. But then, some of the people on the Skyrim part of Beth Forums don't seem to be too sane (one person complained that the game world was too small and needed to be like the last two titles in terms of size, and when someone pointed out to her that the game world was at least as big as Oblivion and larger than Morrowind she responded with a personal attack telling them that they had clearly never played and TES games before...welcome to the community).

[Arthmoor]

Yeah. The Skyrim regulars are vicious. Most of the site's trolls have gathered there.

[Arthmoor]

Greatest forum post EVER:

What's better than a dinosaur? A dinosaur who can breathe fire. What's an Argonian Dragonborn? A walking talking dinosaur who can breathe fire, wield hundreds of weapons and armour pieces and kick the former in the rear. That's why Argonians rock.

[prettyfly]

Well, since you do seem to like Argonians... :tongue:

[Arthmoor]

Tidbit found on a German site by an astute Skyrim fan:

Auch romantische Beziehungen und Freundschaften sollen sich demnach in der Planung befinden.

Which Google translates as:

Even romantic relationships and friendships are are therefore being planned.

http://www.giga.de/top-themen/00152378-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-vorschau-episch-neu-definiert/page_3.htmlStuff like that is cool if it's done right, they'll need to come out with something really top notch though to beat what Witcher and Dragon Age have both done. (NOT Witcher 2 btw, since none of that existed)Must have been one hell of a demo the press saw at E3.

[Thomas Kaira]

On the topic of armor...If I don't get my Colovian Fur Helm back, I am going to be super-pissed. :grinning:

[Dwip]

*snicker*All I ask is that we get the awesome bear helms and such from Bloodmoon.

[Arthmoor]

So who here is getting an odd feeling that Solstheim will end up as a DLC at some point?

[Dwip]

Didn't they level almost the whole island?

[Thomas Kaira]

That was Vvardenfell.And that is also the reason Skyrim is taking place 200 years after Oblivion (and 195 years after Infernal City). This gives Bethesda an excuse to ignore the events of the book.Personally, I think Solstheim going into Skyrim will be something of a cheap cash-in, since they really won't be treading any new ground with it. They can just build off what they already did for Bloodmoon.Although I have to admit, it would be fun to visit the ruins of Raven Rock.