Giskard and False Accusations

[Dallen68]

It doesn't start untlil after your arch-mage. The story line is Traven's ban was illegal, the new emporer steps in, and your faction is set up as a law enforcement agency which is seperated from the education dept. Your job is to be sure all legal forms of magic can be practiced. I didn't mean to imply using or not using OBSE is good or bad. I guess you could say that about any tool...

[AnImpatientFan]

To get the Necromancer stuff. You need to: 1. Finish all the stuff in The Elder Council 2. Become The Arch Mage and 3. Want to allow Necromancy. It sorta makes sense.

[Dallen68]

The idea that the Mages' Guild would actively encourage necromancy is highly suspect, the idea that the Imperial Administration would sanction it is bordering on absurd. Necromancy is clearly in violation of the Imperial cult religion, as it violates the realm of Arkey, God of Life and Death. Remember the book in Morrowind, "Arkey the Enemy"? It's not as though Traven's ban is issued in a Lore-vacumn, it's the logical extension of the Imperial religion; if anything the Imperial Synod (from the Infernal City) would come down heavier on Necromancers because it is a part of Imperial administration. I read the book, and I see nothing like seperate guilds in the Fourth era, quite the opposite. It seems Titus Meade has decided to unify magical teaching under the College of Wispers. (Lore Rant over) The point is, it's clearly an idea (I suppose a good one) that Giskard had and has recieved no revision, because he doesn't listen to anyone else. It would make more sense if the Guild went a bit "rogue" with no Emperor and that was why Titus dissolved it; in fact that would be a clever explanation of the situation in the book. So when I said his mods were "a bit shit" what I really meant was, "bits of them are a bit shit". Also, I believe he but mines [i]inside[/i] the walls of Chorrol, which makes no sense because A: you shouldn't do that sort of thing really and B: I thought the point was all (most) of the Cyrorylic mines were tapped out. Mind you, I admit to being picking, I'm a Medievalist and something of an archaeologist by proffession (passion since childhood, not a profession) so I'm a little over-sensetive to these things, I admit. I also had a little rant about how just rebuilding Kvatch castle made no sense because the internal structure was wrecked and you'd have to pull the whole thing down, and anyway the political situation in the region mitigated against creating a new Coun at that time. :lol:

[Dallen68]

Ok, who stoled my name?

[Dallen68]

Ok, Sigurd. You have to post under your own name :p

[Dallen68]

I also had a little rant about how just rebuilding Kvatch castle made no sense because the internal structure was wrecked and you'd have to pull the whole thing down, and anyway the political situation in the region mitigated against creating a new Coun at that time.

I completely disagree. Rebuilding Kvatch makes perfect sense, and should have been part of vanilla oblivion. The political situation impelled the creation of a new count as quickly as possible , so much so, no search for a surviving Goldwine was conducted.

[Arthmoor]

I tend to agree with Dallen. The Imperials barely tolerated necromancy in Cyrodiil. Yes, it was legal, but almost nobody actually wanted it that way if you pay even the slightest amount of attention. And while the guild may not have done much about it before Traven, the progression of events clearly leads to it eventually being put to a stop and it had to happen somewhere. I'd rather see it played out in the game than glossed over in some non-canon source. So by having OMG fully embrace neceomancy the way you're saying it does makes no sense at all. Unless as suggested it's supposed to be the catalyst for why it got consolidated in the book (which I haven't read). I doubt very much Giskard had that information handy when he built the mod. It sounds like it would even be a stretch for him to say it's based on early 4th era lore. As far as rebuilding Kvatch, I agree that should have been part of the game. Though from what I gather, Giskard simply snaps his fingers one day and it's done. I rather prefer the way Kvatch Rebuilt handled it by first clearing out the burned rubble and then slowly building up to a completed city after the quest is done.

[Dallen68]

Actually, he had information from "the infernal city", provided by someone he trusts*. And both KA (the latest version anyway) and KRIS take time. In Giskard's fantasy-the original guild is dissolved by the Emporer, your avatar gets threatend with being arrested by Imperial Mandate, you report to the Emporer. Then, the "mages guild" per se is declared illegal because of Traven's bullshit; then you get appointed arch-mage of the imperial synod (a law enforcement agency), under which is 1.the college of whispers (remnants of mages guild) 2. College of Conjurers (wtf?) 3. College of Necromancers Supposedly, the already existin necromaner guild from "the necromancer" then join the college of necromaners, but I haven't played that-so I don't know..

[Arthmoor]

I don't see how he could have had access to the necessary information from Infernal City 2 years before the book's release. Given how secretive Bethesda is, he'd either have to be working for them already (doubtful) or have access to Keyes in some way (also doubtful). For him to actually try and claim he had insider info is absurd, barring these two scenarios. Such information would have been scattered widely across the internet. As far as the other point, about keeping mines inside the city walls, that's neither here nor there. It's much easier to protect one inside the city, but that also leaves a huge security breach in place if someone digs through underground and then pours out of the mine. Then again, Oblivion's "cities" barely qualify as such and I'm convinced that Bethesda only gave them walls to hide their method of dealing with FPS issues on the XBox.

[Dallen68]

The Imperials barely tolerated necromancy in Cyrodiil. Yes, it was legal, but almost nobody actually wanted it that way if you pay even the slightest amount of attention

And that's why you have necromancers in both Transports of Cyrodiil, and your dark brotherhood mod.(don't remember off hand what it's called) Both are awesome BTW. Only, in transports, if you have one of the umpteen "you have to eat and sleep mods" your avatar doesn't get hungry/sleepy when he's supposed to if he goes for a ride.

[Dallen68]

I don't see how he could have had access to the necessary information from Infernal City 2 years before the book's release. Given how secretive Bethesda is, he'd either have to be working for them already (doubtful) or have access to Keyes in some way (also doubtful). For him to actually try and claim he had insider info is absurd, barring these two scenarios. Such information would have been scattered widely across the internet.

Apparently, most of the text is on a site called "the imperial library" (which he is a fan of). Then, he admits some of it it 'extrapolation'

[Arthmoor]

Yes, and if you've ever talked to the necromancer in CTS, she gets pretty annoyed by the suggested intolerance of the question. She simply doesn't care what the locals think of her, but they can't arrest her for it either. The one in A Brotherhood Renewed isn't exactly out in the open about it if you've read her journal....

Spoiler

and the chapel wants her dead.

The Brotherhood is also treated as a criminal organization, and they welcome vampires in their ranks too. As far as hunger/thirst, if they're not keeping track of time, that's not something I can fix. CTS advances the clock, so if such a mod is constructed logically, it should be time dependent. If it's been 3 hours since your last meal, and you should be eating one in another 4, then take a 5 hour trip, you should get hungry. If you're not, that's something that really needs to be handled properly in the realism mod. BTW - when doing a quote, leave out the "name" part. It should just be "quote=". Also, the Imperial Library doesn't have inside sources good enough to trump the book's release either. They're just being awfully liberal with excerpts from it.

[Dallen68]

True. Thanks for the tip.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Sorry Dallen, I was at work and not paying attention, this: [quote]The idea that the Mages' Guild would actively encourage necromancy is highly suspect, the idea that the Imperial Administration would sanction it is bordering on absurd. Necromancy is clearly in violation of the Imperial cult religion, as it violates the realm of Arkey, God of Life and Death. Remember the book in Morrowind, "Arkey the Enemy"? It's not as though Traven's ban is issued in a Lore-vacumn, it's the logical extension of the Imperial religion; if anything the Imperial Synod (from the Infernal City) would come down heavier on Necromancers because it is a part of Imperial administration. I read the book, and I see nothing like seperate guilds in the Fourth era, quite the opposite. It seems Titus Meade has decided to unify magical teaching under the College of Wispers. (Lore Rant over) The point is, it's clearly an idea (I suppose a good one) that Giskard had and has recieved no revision, because he doesn't listen to anyone else. It would make more sense if the Guild went a bit "rogue" with no Emperor and that was why Titus dissolved it; in fact that would be a clever explanation of the situation in the book. So when I said his mods were "a bit shit" what I really meant was, "bits of them are a bit shit". Also, I believe he but mines inside the walls of Chorrol, which makes no sense because A: you shouldn't do that sort of thing really and B: I thought the point was all (most) of the Cyrorylic mines were tapped out. Mind you, I admit to being picking, I'm a Medievalist and something of an archaeologist by proffession (passion since childhood, not a profession) so I'm a little over-sensetive to these things, I admit. I also had a little rant about how just rebuilding Kvatch castle made no sense because the internal structure was wrecked and you'd have to pull the whole thing down, and anyway the political situation in the region mitigated against creating a new Coun at that time.[/quote] was indeed me. My point about Kvatch was that: A: The [i]castle[/i] is toast, structurally speaking. You'd need to knock it down and rebuild. B: The releasing of funds to rebuild is unlikely to happening any time soon without an Emperor, I seriosuly doubt the Chancellor would be legally able to do it. C: It's hard to see the uefulness of the city itself, it looks like a relic from a time when Cyrodil was ruled from hill-top strongholds, but in "current" times its position doesn't look all that critical. So I would have closed up the castle and moved a legion detachment into the city after clearing it of the worst rubble. *shrug* I'm not wedded to the opinion, but I think that any rebuilding would need to explicitely include a gutting od the castle keep at the very least.

[Dallen68]

Sigurd, Your supposed to pretend the existing castle "was" torn down, and rebuilt. :thinking: The funds for the rebuild come from 'your avatar', (in KA or from the new emporer (in Kris). It doesn't 'matter' about the usefulness of the city. It's so far "out of the way" it doesn't make sence for M.Dagon to attack it in the first place: it's an isolated little city.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Sorry Dallen, not buying it. Castles take 20-40 years to build properly, I would be surprised if it was even rebuilt by Titus Meade's Empire, why bother after all? the answer to that is that it would be a headache to leave it abandoned because bandits would probably move in, best strategic solution would be a legion fortress. As to Dagon, well he was after Martin, wasn't he. As an unrelated aside, was anyone else dissapointed with the other castle's sameness after Kvatch's individuality?

[Arthmoor]

I was sorely disappointed with every city's sameness, as I'm sure observers of OC Reborn can attest :) Though that doesn't really address the castles, just the cities themselves. Skingrad was the only one we got that was truly as individualistic as Kvatch. Even though I despise trying to work with Skingrad castle pieces.

[Dallen68]

i was kinda disappointed w/ the sameness.

[Dallen68]

BTW, the thing between Sigurd and me is a perfect example of an "honest disagreement". See how we don't have to troll each other, or flame each other, or call each other liars?

[Conner]

:lol: Well, trying to catch up after a day of heavy posting on here usually means a really long post from me, but this time I can't really see what I can productively add to this day's exchanges, it's all been covered well from both sides.

[Hana]

@Dallen; 1. You need to register and log in properly :P 2. You took away most of the fun without the flaming/trolling! :lol: 3. You should see Samson and Dwip go at it. Epic. And yes, we're quite aware of Samson's distaste for the sameness of cities/castles/walls/etc. Personally, I think every city has it's own little uniqueness.

[Dallen68]

@hanaisse 1. I "did" and i never got my confirmation e-mail 2.That's not my fault 3.Huh?

[Conner]

@Dallen: 1. Gratz, hopefully it'll show up soon then. (You did check your spam folder for it too, right?) 2. :chuckle: 3. You just haven't been here long enough yet nor participated in the right threads. Eventually you'll see it though, I'm sure. ;)

[Orisha]

Castles in Oblivion are really more like dungeons, they have no windows and the interiors bear no relationship to the exterior world. The real shame is it could all have been done so much better, if they'd just put spral staircases in the corner towers and used the massive headroom in most of the castles that is just ignored. Morrowind was a lot better in that regard, though still less than perfect.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Arg! wasn't signed in again.