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Giskard and False Accusations


Arthmoor
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[quote=Dallen]The only thing I can think of that's ever been "against" him, is Elminster's version of KA. Even 'that' Elminster did it isn't against him. It's that Elminster 'said' "cleaned and fixed". If he said "made compatible with open/better cities" it wouldn't be "against him". (I was going to say he wouldn't have been offended, but...when your talking about people that are looking under the rocks looking for reasons to be offended....:shrug: )[/quote] But you're forgetting (or you're not aware) that Elminster did nothing wrong. It [u]explicitly[/u] stated in the readme for KA (and all Giskard's mods at that time) that [i]anyone[/i] was free to make [i]any changes[/i] they wanted to Giskard's mods, and upload for others to use, [b]without needing to ask Giskard's permission[/b]. Not implicit, but explicit permission granted, it can't be clearer than that. Plus if Elminster had stated that he'd made it compatible with open/better cities, that would have been a lie, since it wasn't, and no attempt was made to make it compatible with OC or BC or OBC. The only edits he made was to clean it and fix it, and thus this is how it was described. I cannot speak for Arthmoor/Samson (OC team) but for Ismelda and myself (BC team) we weren't even in communication with Elminster at this time, so OC/BC/OBC (probably OBC didn't actually even exist then) had absolutely nothing to do with it. And for the record, he doesn't look under rocks for reasons to be offended, he stares with great force at [b]his[/b] rock, watching for movement! One day it'll move on its own, and he'll have discovered he has telekinesis. [quote=Conner]Granted, it would've been better to consult with the author directly first since he was still clearly active, but...[/quote] See above :) [quote=Samson]I think it's probably more that people have moved on from the subject than anything.[/quote] You move on, then it starts all over again. That's the cycle we all know from the past 2.5 years. The wonderful thing is that this time we finally were given a place to vocalise about it ourselves, so thanks again, Samson. There have been a few off-topic posts here, so not all 479 comments in this thread are about Giskard, Conner.
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I didn't know about Giskard giving explicit permission for people to edit his mods. I recall checking up his oldest posts on Beth forums when I had my first dealings with him and he came across as a nice modder that was very eager to work with and learn from others. So if permission was actually given to edit his files, that puts him in an even poorer light. BTW, anyone noticed that everyone on his "enemies list" are all mature and knowledgable about Oblivion modding? Seems he feels threatened by people whom he can't bully and how sees through his lies and prefer to associate with either adults who know little about how modded Oblivion and it's tools work (yet are not shy about giving advice on how Wrye Bash will ruin your game), and kids who swallow everything he says.
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@[color=yellow]Vorians[/color]: Yes, with the permissions that you'd stated before were in his original readmes Elminster didn't do anything wrong, but as a courtesy he could've, and perhaps should've, gotten approval from Giskard at the time. It still probably wouldn't have curtailed any of this, but it would've removed the closest thing Giskard has had all along as legitimacy in his allegations. No, not all 481 of these comments are about Giskard (Which I'm sure that comes are great consternation to his ego.) but the thread is that long in just over a month and doesn't appear to be dying off though it has slowed in pace significantly of late. @[color=yellow]PetrusOctavianus[/color]: Unfortunately, that's the story we've all been lead to believe so his light has been pretty poor all along. ;) :lol: So, you're saying that his issues may not be delusion, paranoia, or schizophrenic but merely incredible insecurity? ;)
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[color=yellow]Conner:[/color] [quote]:lol: So, you're saying that his issues may not be delusion, paranoia, or schizophrenic but merely incredible insecurity? ;)[/quote] Hard to say, but it struck me that his oldest messages were in a very different tone from what he's been writing the past two years. And it seems he's the kind of person who needs to be the big fish in a small pond (who eats the other fish if they naysay him) rather than being a small fish in a big pond. I've also noticed that at his own "friendly" site he does not enforce the no mod bashing laws that he so advocated on Bethsoft and Nexus. Not as long as it's not his own mods, of course... So in his world it's cyberstalking to mention conflicts or problems with his mods, but calling the mods of other modders for crap is OK. So to sum up: 1 part Paranoia + 1 part Insecurity + 1 part Hypocrisy = Giskard.
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[quote=Conner]Yes, with the permissions that you'd stated before were in his original readmes Elminster didn't do anything wrong, but as a courtesy he could've, and perhaps should've, gotten approval from Giskard at the time. It still probably wouldn't have curtailed any of this, but it would've removed the closest thing Giskard has had all along as legitimacy in his allegations. [/quote] Giskard was already stirring trouble before Elminster released KA though. Elminster can be a bit too blunt at times, and was in the process of reporting to modders his findings with TES4Edit of dirty and wild edits. He really ought to have stuck to PMs but instead publicly posted that KA contained thousands of dirty edits (which it did/does) and that it broke some vanilla dialogue and scripts. Elminster's intent was to let authors know so that they could fix their mods, and many authors thanked him and did just that (probably with Elminster's assistance). However Giskard doesn't respond well to criticism (I know, that's quite a surprise, but it's true) and took the report as an attack, so started shouting and flaming Elminster. He claimed that Elminster had incorrectly pointed out errors which Giskard had fixed many versions ago - but he hadn't fixed them, he had overwritten vanilla scripts and dialogue for his own mod usage, then created new records duplicating the vanilla records from before he touched them. This may have gotten them working again, but technically that was a workaround, not a fix, and Elminster was correctly finding them, and TES4Edit could have correctly fixed them. Due to the way in which Giskard responded, Elminster saw no point in attempting further contact, and promptly ceased communication (though in Giskard's version of events, it was he who ceased communication after much flaming from Elminster). Because Giskard's readmes gave explicit permission to edit and reupload, Elminster did the obvious thing - he uploaded the fixed ESP. You see, Giskard had already burnt his bridges from the outset with Elminster, there was no chance of further communication, so there was no way Elminster could first seek approval - approval not needed anyway due to the explicit wording of the readme. Bridge-burners are by nature troll-attractors of course, due to the sudden lack of troll-homes. The flames may be pretty to the troll at first, but things soon change when he realises that the pretty has become a burnt pile of rubble which he can no longer hide under. So he brought the genuine trolls (I assume [i]some[/i] must exist, they can't [i]all[/i] be in his head) upon himself, troll-clubs swinging.
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[quote=Dallen]"Don't Move My Rock" Staring Phil McGraw as Giskard. Orson Wells as Conner, Kyle Maclaughlin as Vorians, Linsay Wagner as Ismelda, and Larry the Cable guy as Arthmoor![/quote] [quote=PetrusOctavianus]He he, I'm afraid that when I try to create a character to look like myself he ends up looking a lot more like Rowan Atkinson than Simon Baker.[/quote] ROFLMAO! Man, that's some mental picture. [quote=Conner]So, you're saying that his issues may not be delusion, paranoia, or schizophrenic but merely incredible insecurity?[/quote] Aww, he just needs a hug.
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@[color=yellow]PetrusOctavianus[/color]: Well, I suppose either Rowen Atkinson or Simon Baker is better than looking like Tom Baker. ;) @[color=yellow]Vorians[/color]: I didn't say it was a bad statement, just an interesting one and that it was basically a recap of the original post. :) @[color=yellow]Hanaisse[/color]: No doubt, on both counts! :lol: @[color=yellow]Anonymous[/color]: Seconded, does the motion carry? :P
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As I was going through all my installed mods in TES4EDIT to fix as many conflicts as possible, I came upon this entry: HannibalTravenDrawerREF [REFR:0006C4C5] (places ZOOODrawerNoble02ClutterWizTraven "Exquisite Drawers" [CONT:08006D45] in GRUP Cell Persistent Children of ICArcaneUniversityArchMagesQuarters "Arch-Mage's Quarters" [CELL:00049CF8]) Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul makes this a Persistent Reference and IIRC that caused som conflict with Origin of the Mages Guild and made Giskard hyperventilate. Or it made him gloat that he found one mistake Oscuro supposedly did. Anyone remember excactly what the problem was? I've deleted all of G's mods from my HD so I can't check myself.
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I know it well. It isn't a mistake in OOO, but Giskard claimed it was, and pointed it out for all to recognise how crap OOO modders were. Here are the facts: OOO edits the container, replacing its contents for a quest. OMG edits the container, making it non-respawning so that the player can use it to store things once they are the arch-mage. Whichever loads last wins. Once the conflict was reported, dev_akm (politely) suggested to Giskard that his edit was unnecessary, probably because it has no real benefit to gameplay. I don't need to describe the response he got, but the result was that dev_akm produced a compatibility patch for OOO and OMG, and that was the end of the matter for OOO and dev_akm. About a week later Giskard announced that because OOO was so badly designed that it broke his mod, and because the modders working on OOO were more interested in flaming him than actually fixing the problem, he would produce a compatibility patch for the conflict, and did so. Then he released OMG v5.1 and removed the conflict, adding this to the changelog: [quote]Removed the fix for the respawning drawer at the bottom of Travens bed. This means any items in that drawer will be lost every 3 days again. Thank OOO for that, it rather stupidly made a cupboard everybody edits a quest item, and OOO breaks if OMG or any other mod fixes that buggy drawer. So to avoid issues, I have had to remove the fix for OOO users benefits. To say I am deeply pissed about having to do this is a massive understatement.[/quote] So the conflict ceased to exist and both versions of the compatibility patch were made redundant. And then in v6, Giskard [b]replaced[/b] the conflicting container, thus ensuring that OOO was broken because the vanilla container had been deleted. [quote=Changelog]Replaced the Drawer in the Archmages quarters (that was marked respawn) with one that does not respawn to stop the player losing his stuff every 3 days.[/quote] So the conflict is now even worse than before, and a patch is needed. Neither of the previous two patches are likely to be compatible with this. This means that if you're no longer using OMG, you simply want the container to be as OOO edits it.
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