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Arthmoor
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http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_religion/purgatory.htmlAlso, every source I've found thus far on Google which attempts to counter the notion of it having been invented is justifying that position by basically saying "but the Jews talked about it before Christ" which is wholly irrelevant with regard to Christianity.It makes perfect sense for Jews to believe in such a concept because they don't believe Christ is the savior to begin with. Neither do Muslims, and strangely enough, a lot of these same sites use THEM as proof the concept is real.These sources also seem to talk about "indulgences" which I personally find no evidence for as it's not possible to "buy" your way into Heaven, which is basically what this is proposing is possible. So they're also engaged in deflection arguments to avoid the main subject.And of course every last one utterly perverts the Salvation at the Cross to a point where accepting Christ is no longer enough despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the New Testament. Otherwise, fundamentally, Christ's sacrifice was worthless.Oh, and for shits, I bounced this thread over to both of my friends. Neither one thought it worth the bother to respond with anything other than "That guy is full of it". So, yeah, not like I'm really in a position to say either of you are wrong on this, me not being a religious scholar and all.
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*pokes head in* Andalay told me you were debating this! *squee!*Okay, to start off with: Purgatory. No, that word is not used in the Bible. It's one of many particular words not found in the Bible that happens to be part of Christian beliefs. The main basis of the Catholic belief in Purgatory comes from 2 Maccabees, which is one of the deuterocanonical books - originally part of the Bible, but removed by Martin Luther, even though he himself believed in Purgatory. For example:"Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out," (2 Macc 12:43)And"Thus, he made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin." (2 Macc 12:46)Here, I will freely admit that many Christian faiths don't believe that Maccabees is truly part of the Bible - but the history is very important. However, there are also several quotes from the Gospels and the letters of Paul that also serve as the basis of that particular belief. To start off with: "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 3:15) Of course, there would be no salvation in hellfire, nor fire in heaven, so there must be another place being talked about. Also, Matthew 5:21-26...which is a bit too long to write out here, but can be summed up as Jesus talking about making peace with others before going to the altar (heaven), else you will be put in prison (purgatory) until you pay your debt (your sins).I would like to know what pagan tradition you're comparing Purgatory to, actually. I know quite a few, and I can't say I can think of a good parallel.Continuing...

Also' date=' every source I've found thus far on Google which attempts to counter the notion of it having been invented is justifying that position by basically saying "but the Jews talked about it before Christ" which is wholly irrelevant with regard to Christianity.[/quote']Ah...the whole basis of the Old Testament is building up to the Messiah. Everything talked about before Christ has meaning in Christianity one way or another. The Gospels are chock full of fulfilled prophecies and the old prophets. The first Christians weren't even Christians, persay. They, and the rest of the world, considered themselves to be a sect of Judaism. It was quite a while before they were considered to be separate.To say that what the Jewish people did is wholly irrelevant is to completely ignore the history of your own faith.At any rate, these books were written a long time before Jesus was even born. So how could the Jews believe in him in particular, rather than the overreaching concept of a messiah at the time?
And of course every last one utterly perverts the Salvation at the Cross to a point where accepting Christ is no longer enough despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the New Testament. Otherwise' date=' fundamentally, Christ's sacrifice was worthless.[/quote']Exactly what do you mean?
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What it all boils down to is this: Catholics believe they must perform "good works" and "indulgences" to lessen their time in Purgatory.All bollocks, as you Brits like to say, when you remember this:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Which I've had explained to me time and time again means Jesus Christ is the only path to Salvation, and only through His Salvation will you meet the Father. Nowhere is it ever implied or outright stated that it means "ask me, then prove your worth. if you don't, serve time in prison first". Or even suggested that it means "do good deeds in the name of the Pope".I find NOTHING outside of Catholic teachings to even hint at the existence of a Purgatory. Which in Pagan terms is the Underworld, or Limbo, where souls reside before being sent to Hades.Mary Worship isn't in the Bible either, and Catholics spend an inordinate amount of time doing so. There is nothing to suggest Mary is supposed to be deified in any way. Sure, she had the good fortune to play mother to God, but that's as far as it went. I don't recall the name of the Pagan god this really translates to, but that's where the Catholics lifted it from. Wait.. found it: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html (May not be the best of sources, but jives with everything I've ever read on the subject)One can also mention Christmas trees and Easter bunnies as well, since they've been adopted into mainstream Catholicism as commercial symbols. The rabbit is a pagan fertility symbol, and the tree is a pagan winter solstice symbol.
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I don't think I've had this much fun in a while. *popcorn*Hubby and I love the fact that so many of the Christian holidays were stolen from the pagans. Dec 25 is just after the winter solstice, which the pagans used to celebrate that they had survived another one. From the constellations in the sky the night that Jesus was born, I think they figured out that he was actually born in April.I can't debate the rest, but I'm eagerly awaiting Ama's response. :grinning:

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Yeah, I know, and what's worse about Christmas and Easter is that those rip-offs of paganism didn't stay with the Catholics. They spread to just about every variety of Christianity we have today.

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Your early church fathers were definitely crazy crazy pagan symbolism stealers.From my perspective, we're definitely pretty far into "you guys are trying way too hard" territory here, but hey, pass some of that popcorn. ;)

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Well at least the maturity level in this discussion is leagues ahead of another board where the members would have been calling for me to be perm-banned for even mentioning religion :P

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I guess I could try to permaban you if you really want. Can admins ban the main admin? :P
rofl.gif We've had a similar fun debate. I could ban Xae' date=' but he could retaliate by IP banning me via Apache. If he banned me, I'd just reinstate myself in the database. And IP ban him. :lmao:We haven't had the nerve to actually try it though. [img']http://www.darkcreations.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lmao.gif[/img] It could be rather embarrassing...
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What it all boils down to is this: Catholics believe they must perform "good works" and "indulgences" to lessen their time in Purgatory.All bollocks' date=' as you Brits like to say, when you remember this:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Which I've had explained to me time and time again means Jesus Christ is the only path to Salvation, and only through His Salvation will you meet the Father. Nowhere is it ever implied or outright stated that it means "ask me, then prove your worth. if you don't, serve time in prison first". Or even suggested that it means "do good deeds in the name of the Pope".
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:24-26)
I find NOTHING outside of Catholic teachings to even hint at the existence of a Purgatory. Which in Pagan terms is the Underworld' date=' or Limbo, where souls reside before being sent to Hades.[/quote']Nope - that's not what what Hades is. According to Greek Mythology, Hades (aka, the generic land of the dead) is where all of the uninteresting souls went to after death. As opposed to Tartarus, which is where the evil souls went, or the Elysian Fields, where the great heros went. Limbo was a pre-Vatican II "teaching" that was never a real Catholic belief one way or another. That was where unbaptized babies went. Yeah. Like I said, not a proper Catholic teaching, especially after Vatican II. Oy.
Mary Worship isn't in the Bible either' date=' and Catholics spend an inordinate amount of time doing so. There is nothing to suggest Mary is supposed to be deified in any way. Sure, she had the good fortune to play mother to God, but that's as far as it went. I don't recall the name of the Pagan god this really translates to, but that's where the Catholics lifted it from. Wait.. found it: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html (May not be the best of sources, but jives with everything I've ever read on the subject)[/quote']*sigh* Catholics don't worship Mary. Nor do they worship saints. It's a request to intercede before God. I recently learned where that likely originally came from. You see, in Jewish tradition, if someone is suffering, and the name of the person's mother is invoked in prayer, God will be more likely to listen. Along the same lines, Catholics ask the Mother of God to intercede for the person praying. The role of the mother is very important in the Jewish faith, you see. So the tradition of asking Mary to speak to her Son is quite old. It's no more worship than asking your mom to talk to your dad about getting you a new bike. (And the Hail Mary is directly out of scripture.)
One can also mention Christmas trees and Easter bunnies as well' date=' since they've been adopted into mainstream Catholicism as commercial symbols. The rabbit is a pagan fertility symbol, and the tree is a pagan winter solstice symbol.

[/quote']Er...there's absolutely nothing in mainstream Catholicism that involves the Easter Bunny at all. I can assure you, having gone to multiple Easter Masses, I've yet to see a single bunny rabbit. Symbols of water, wind, new flowers, white clothing, yes...no bunnies. Distinct lack of bunnies. Talk to the Germans about the bunnies. I'm Polish. I don't have a clue.And actually, the Christmas tree's origins can be traced back to the 1400's at the earliest, and a lot of highly Catholic areas refused to use one around the 1800's because it was considered a Protestant tradition. Not to mention, it's also a general tradition, and has nothing to do with Catholic beliefs other than decoration. Also: @Dwip: Symbolism is awesome. Did you know that a very early Christian symbol was the pentegram/pentacle? It symbolized Christ's wounds. And the inverted cross wasn't developed by satanism, it was originally St. Peter's cross, because he was crucified upside down, refusing to be like Jesus. :wub: Symbolism.And I have a question for Arthmoor: What's your scriptural basis for Sola Scriptura? I've always wondered that. If all truth is to be found in scripture, and only in scripture, surely scripture must say that somewhere.

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If its of any help, my Catholic history teacher who studied the reformation (and its related religious wars) in university generally associates the promotion of purgatory by the church with the desire to get in funds for the rebuilding of St Peter's basilica. Has one of your relatives lived a chequered life? Send a bag of gold the Vatican's way and all will be fine.

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And I have a question for Arthmoor: What's your scriptural basis for Sola Scriptura? I've always wondered that. If all truth is to be found in scripture, and only in scripture, surely scripture must say that somewhere.
Absolutism gets you nowhere - most Christians I've discussed it with do not consider the Bible to be the sole authority in all things. They *DO* consider it to be the primary authority, in much the same way the US sets up the Constitution as the Supreme Law. If you want to get nitpicky though, it's the primary authority because it was divinely inspired and Christians have considered it so since the foundation.Contrary to popular media induced belief, there aren't many of us who are "literalists" out there. While we acknowledge the Bible as the Divine Word, it subject to the understanding of those who transcribed those words, and then later taught them to others as well as translated them through the ages. For most people, reading it in plain English suffices to understand. For some, understanding requires going back to the original Aramaic. No easy task, but then you don't have centuries of translation errors to parse through either.Catholics took that word and perverted it with pagan beliefs, which have not been fully driven out from many churches that sprang up from those early days. Even Protestant churches aren't immune to the corruption the Romans inflicted on things in their efforts to save their dying empire. The worship, veneration, or whatever it is you want to call it of Mary and the saints is NOT Christian doctrine at all. That's Catholic paganism, pure and simple.Also, while the pentagram and upside down cross may not have originally meant that, they do now. There however is very little doubt about the origins of the Christmas tree and Easter bunny - even though as we all know those symbols are not used in the actual buildings.
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Absolutism gets you nowhere - most Christians I've discussed it with do not consider the Bible to be the sole authority in all things. They *DO* consider it to be the primary authority' date=' in much the same way the US sets up the Constitution as the Supreme Law. If you want to get nitpicky though, it's the primary authority because it was divinely inspired and Christians have considered it so since the foundation.[/quote']Then why are you looking for the literal Biblical basis of Purgatory? Or the reason Catholics ask Mary to pray for us? If the Bible isn't the sole authority, then what makes the Catholic version lesser than the Protestant version?
Catholics took that word and perverted it with pagan beliefs' date=' which have not been fully driven out from many churches that sprang up from those early days. Even Protestant churches aren't immune to the corruption the Romans inflicted on things in their efforts to save their dying empire. The worship, veneration, or whatever it is you want to call it of Mary and the saints is NOT Christian doctrine at all. That's Catholic paganism, pure and simple.[/quote']Actually, I thought you'd bring up Ishtar or Semiramis - those are the usual female figures compared to Mary in the Catholic church. And how is it "paganism" to ask someone to pray for you? If Christians believe in life after death, then it should be no different to ask a living person to pray for us than a dead person. It should be even better for a dead person to pray. They should be closer to God, yes?
Also' date=' while the pentagram and upside down cross may not have originally meant that, they do now. There however is very little doubt about the origins of the Christmas tree and Easter bunny - even though as we all know those symbols are not used in the actual buildings.[/quote']Okay, give me the origins and how they directly relate to Catholic tradition. Not the traditions of random Germanic cultures, or today's commercial versions. Give me a precise example of the Catholic beliefs using either. Say, in the Mass, or in the Catechism. It has to be in one of those two to be more than, say, candy canes and lamb cakes.
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Yeah, I'm staying out of this one; I'm a Atheist in the sense that I do not believe in a higher being being responsible for anything that humanity understands (but I am open to the presence of God (or a God) for those that we don't).Oh, and for those who believe that being an Atheist means I am morally bankrupt, think again. I can see where people get the idea of Atheism being a religion (I think they are wrong, but all the same, we do have our own brand of zealotry), but I will say this: we are not the ones who believe in starting wars over differences of opinion about personal beliefs and ownership of land.Then again, it may just be me and my "live and let live" approach to Atheism. I don't give anyone any shit about their religion (unless I have a very good reason to), and in return, you give me any shit about not believing in God. If you try, then remember: you will be the one starting the argument, so the only person you have to blame for the ultimate outcome is yourself.That puts me on the scope of Implicit Atheism. I do not believe in God, but I have not rejected the notion of His existence. The reason I do not believe in him is because I feel that belief (in the sense of trying to inject supernatural meaning into the natural order) is a very poor position to hold; a flimsy bridge between what we as humanity know and do not know which should not be there. I would prefer religion be an extension of the unknown, and not try to invade what is known (which is why I so vehemently disapprove of the Intelligent Design movement), because in doing so, you do both parties a disservice.

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http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_religion/purgatory.htmlAlso' date=' every source I've found thus far on Google which attempts to counter the notion of it having been invented is justifying that position by basically saying "but the Jews talked about it before Christ" which is wholly irrelevant with regard to Christianity.It makes perfect sense for Jews to believe in such a concept because they don't believe Christ is the savior to begin with. Neither do Muslims, and strangely enough, a lot of these same sites use THEM as proof the concept is real.These sources also seem to talk about "indulgences" which I personally find no evidence for as it's not possible to "buy" your way into Heaven, which is basically what this is proposing is possible. So they're also engaged in deflection arguments to avoid the main subject.And of course every last one utterly perverts the Salvation at the Cross to a point where accepting Christ is no longer enough despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the New Testament. Otherwise, fundamentally, Christ's sacrifice was worthless.Oh, and for shits, I bounced this thread over to both of my friends. Neither one thought it worth the bother to respond with anything other than "That guy is full of it". So, yeah, not like I'm really in a position to say either of you are wrong on this, me not being a religious scholar and all.[/quote']Your friends presumably have not spent several years studying these issues as part of Higher Degrees.Let's review.What is Purgatory?Purgatory is the place of chasticement (seperate from punishment) where you go after you die and before entering Heaven. You must still have been saved before the Cross to enter Purgatory, Roman Catholics believe explicitely that Salvation comes only through Christ, the only difference is that they do not believe that once you are saved you immidiately enter heaven. I fail to see what is so terrible about this, it is simply a way of answering the question, "If David was a nicer person that John, does David get into Heaven sooner and if not why not?"Jesus goes on and on in the Gospels about "storing up treasure in Heaven" there is clearly an idea that your actions on Earth affect how you enter the afterlife, if we are to reject the ide that they affect how you "live" in the afterlife.If you want a more nuanced response than that you will have to enable multi-quote and a bigger box for me to type into. :tongue:
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What it all boils down to is this: Catholics believe they must perform "good works" and "indulgences" to lessen their time in Purgatory.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him' date=' I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[/quote']Which I've had explained to me time and time again means Jesus Christ is the only path to Salvation, and only through His Salvation will you meet the Father. Nowhere is it ever implied or outright stated that it means "ask me, then prove your worth. if you don't, serve time in prison first". Or even suggested that it means "do good deeds in the name of the Pope".
The indulgences thing is - odd, but the idea is that you ask people to pray on your behalf when you die and they do good "as your proxy" which means that even though you died you continue to have a positive effect on the world. Anyway - believing that doesn't make them "not Christians"The key point is that nowhere does it say you immidiately go to heaven. Once you are in Purgatory you are going to heaven, just not yet. It doesn't affect the core doctrine of salvation in the slightest.
I find NOTHING outside of Catholic teachings to even hint at the existence of a Purgatory. Which in Pagan terms is the Underworld, or Limbo, where souls reside before being sent to Hades.
OK, you've confused several ideas here. "Limbo" is traditionally the uppermost part of Hell, a desolate place where souls are not made to suffer but are eternally seperated from God. Hades is the Underworld, it's just where you go when you die to become a "shade", it isn't Heaven or Hell - it represents an entirely different cosmological system where what happens to you when you die isn't what matters but what happens while you live.
Mary Worship isn't in the Bible either, and Catholics spend an inordinate amount of time doing so. There is nothing to suggest Mary is supposed to be deified in any way. Sure, she had the good fortune to play mother to God, but that's as far as it went. I don't recall the name of the Pagan god this really translates to, but that's where the Catholics lifted it from. Wait.. found it: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html (May not be the best of sources, but jives with everything I've ever read on the subject)
It's not worship, it's reverence. You do not pray to Saints as you would pray to God, what you are doing is asking them to pray with you and guide you, in the same way you would a living person. Mary is the go-to because she is supposed to be the most Holy person who ever lived.
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There is a huge difference between organized religion and spirituality. Organized religion has caused much harm over the centuries in it's efforts to control more people. Not just Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism have all done their bit if you look back far enough.Spirituality is what an individual practices. We each have to find our own answers.

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There is a huge difference between organized religion and spirituality. Organized religion has caused much harm over the centuries in it's efforts to control more people. Not just Christianity' date=' Islam and Judaism. Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism have all done their bit if you look back far enough.Spirituality is what an individual practices. We each have to find our own answers.[/quote']"Religion" is just what happens when a group of people have personal beliefs which are close enough they can agree they believe the "same" thing.I have a favourite saying, "It's not religion that starts wars, it's atheism".The reason I say that is that no one starts a fight over what they believe, they start one because they can't accapt what someone else believes. Decrying religion as having cause, "much harm" is to miss the point - it isn't the religion that is the problem, it is the way people deal with other people. When two oposing groups, religious, political, whatever, can't agree on something and can't live with the other belief they fight until only one group is left standing. Just look at the modern political parties, or special interest groups for the environment or animal welfare, or even people who do and don't support the European Union or UN.No matter the issue, people always end up having the same bloody fight, over, and over, and over.At least religions groups people together in a common community and stop everybody from fighting everyone all the time.
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There is a huge difference between organized religion and spirituality. Organized religion has caused much harm over the centuries in it's efforts to control more people. Not just Christianity' date=' Islam and Judaism. Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism have all done their bit if you look back far enough.

Spirituality is what an individual practices. We each have to find our own answers.[/quote']

"Religion" is just what happens when a group of people have personal beliefs which are close enough they can agree they believe the "same" thing.

I have a favourite saying, "It's not religion that starts wars, it's atheism".

The reason I say that is that no one starts a fight over what they believe, they start one because they can't accapt what someone else believes. Decrying religion as having cause, "much harm" is to miss the point - it isn't the religion that is the problem, it is the way people deal with other people. When two oposing groups, religious, political, whatever, can't agree on something and can't live with the other belief they fight until only one group is left standing. Just look at the modern political parties, or special interest groups for the environment or animal welfare, or even people who do and don't support the European Union or UN.

No matter the issue, people always end up having the same bloody fight, over, and over, and over.

At least religions groups people together in a common community and stop everybody from fighting everyone all the time.

I'm talking about "organized religion", you are talking about religion. While the Inquisition is the perhaps the most famous example of this, it isn't the only one.
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I'm talking about "organized religion"' date=' you are talking about religion. While the Inquisition is the perhaps the most famous example of this, it isn't the only one.[/quote']All Religion is "organised" Ysne - that's its defining feature.If by the "Inquisition" you mean the Spanish purges, then yes - they were bad but so were the Soviet purges in the 20's 30's and 50's.Basically, people suck.
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I'm talking about "organized religion"' date=' you are talking about religion. While the Inquisition is the perhaps the most famous example of this' date=' it isn't the only one.[/quote'']

All Religion is "organised" Ysne - that's its defining feature.

If by the "Inquisition" you mean the Spanish purges, then yes - they were bad but so were the Soviet purges in the 20's 30's and 50's.

Basically, people suck.

I think it is pretty obvious that what you think of as organized is quite different than what actually qualifies as such. An organized religion is much more formal than the definition you gave earlier. The worst abuses of the Inquisition took place in Spain, but it didn't only happen in Spain.
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I think it is pretty obvious that what you think of as organized is quite different than what actually qualifies as such. An organized religion is much more formal than the definition you gave earlier. The worst abuses of the Inquisition took place in Spain' date=' but it didn't only happen in Spain.[/quote']What's organised though?The Roman Catholic Church with +1 billion members, or Westborro Baptist Church with 12 odd?It really doesn't matter - the process at work is the in-out group dynamic, it manifests in religion but it also manifests in American politics with the violent Rep/Dem slit.The various Inquisitions are an incredibly complex topic, but the issue is not a purely religious one - it is a question of politics and power balances. Even so, the modern picture of the Sapnish Inquisition is still somewhat exagerated. Having said that, the rise of a "professional" corps of Inquisitors was a Bad Thing because it changed an Inquisition from a pastoral exercise in correction by the Bishop into a religious trial. If you look at the initial reaction to the Lollard heresy in 1382 you can see that the Bishops were content to give people a figurative slap on the wrist, a lecture and a moderately onerous penance. By 1401 Henry IV had overthrown Richard II and he passed a law requiring all lapsed on non-recantant heretics and their writings to be burned.He did that because he had to stamp his authority on England,
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