TES V: Skyrim

[Ysne58]

I appreciate all the support I am getting here:I am putting the response I received from Robin here:"So you go from being falsely accused of doing something, to falsely accusing NMM of doing something. Do you notice the irony in that? Do your friends have any proof to back it up (e.g. they've looked at the source code and found where it's happening) or is it just idle conjecture? If the former, great, please get them to send in the necessary code snippets, if its the latter....You might have noticed but we do not update NMM regularly. That's because we work on a slew of bug fixes and updates before we roll them out (to stop people updating every day). I will enquire to see if changing the text to something that doesn't upset people is in the next build, but cannot guarantee anything."This is my response:"Considering the scope of what you are doing, I wouldn't expect daily updates. However, I do expect a response to a bug report to be prompt. A simple "we are looking into this" or something like that would have helped your case immensely.Next, I started that accusation with "if they are right": and then listed the 3 conclusions. They are the ones that think NMM deleted those two files. I still believe Steam/Beth somehow caused that isssue. The fact is I don't know how those files were deleted, but now, especially with this unacceptable response of yours, I really wonder if I might be wrong in that assumption. You need to make sure NMM is not somehow doing that.Your false accusations of piracy and your foolishly deleting all the mods from my plugins.txt issues are the two big issues here.You owe the whole community an apology for that error screen message. I advise you to make the text of that screen a priority.I would also strongly urge you to make very sure that you are no longer deleting the contents of that plugins.txt file.You should also start working on more professional responses to irate emails. Your response was predictable but also extremely unprofessional for someone in your position."

[Ysne58]

I have also picture of that error message in the thread I created about this in the mod manager beta thread.http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/645930-plugins-screen-no-mods-mods-screen-show-installed/

[Ysne58]

I notice that people are still recommending NMM in the wrye bash thread. This is what I posted there."I'm having some issues with NMM right now. My skyrim.esm file went missing Thursday, NMM's error message pointed out that it was missing, said I either deleted the file or pirated skyrim, and told me to re-install or go out and buy a copy. I was unable to close NMM until I opened the task manager and forced it to close. After going through the validate cache process on steam and getting those too files back, I logged back into NMM and discovered that the contents of my plugins.txt had been deleted. I assume that NMM caused that to happen as well. At this point I am advising people to only use NMM for it's update notice features and not to use it to launch the game. Also launch through SKSE or the skyrim launcher to make sure those two .esm files haven't gone missing before launcing NMM, so you can avoid going through what I did. "

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Doesn't BASH support Skyrim? Why use anything else?These are rhetorical questions.But, seriously, BASH has finally matured, by and large it works and you no longer require a degree in computer science to use it.

[Arthmoor]

So you go from being falsely accused of doing something, to falsely accusing NMM of doing something. Do you notice the irony in that? Do your friends have any proof to back it up (e.g. they've looked at the source code and found where it's happening) or is it just idle conjecture? If the former, great, please get them to send in the necessary code snippets, if its the latter....

Where did he get the idea that we're accusing NMM of having deleted those files? I think all of us here have come to the same conclusion that a glitch in Steam was to blame for it. So his program accuses people of piracy. When it gets reported, he accuses people of making up lies about it?@Sigurd: The SVN branch of Bash supports the new load order system. It hasn't been finalized as a public release yet, but it ought to be soon or Bash is going to be lagging everything else behind.

[Ysne58]

I did put on one of my posts that some of my friends think that. I actually didn't say I thought that in the post in question though. So he took that out of context.Anyway, since his reply was not acceptable, as soon as I'm comfortable with WRYE, NMM is probably going to go bye bye.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

So you go from being falsely accused of doing something' date=' to falsely accusing NMM of doing something. Do you notice the irony in that? Do your friends have any proof to back it up (e.g. they've looked at the source code and found where it's happening) or is it just idle conjecture? If the former, great, please get them to send in the necessary code snippets, if its the latter.... [/quote']

Where did he get the idea that we're accusing NMM of having deleted those files? I think all of us here have come to the same conclusion that a glitch in Steam was to blame for it. So his program accuses people of piracy. When it gets reported, he accuses people of making up lies about it?

@Sigurd: The SVN branch of Bash supports the new load order system. It hasn't been finalized as a public release yet, but it ought to be soon or Bash is going to be lagging everything else behind.

So the Bash boys are losing out to NMM because they're doing an Apple.Yeesh, strip out the stuff that makes Skyrim go Bang and release.

[Thomas Kaira]

So the response is (I can't say I'm surprised) nothing more than evasive claptrap that makes it sound like he really doesn't care that he is treating the entire user base of NMM as criminals?Yeah... bad move on his part. General rule of handling an insulted and angered user: apologize and address what insulted them so to avoid it happening again. Not call them a liar, play the superiority card, and say you might consider addressing the issue.So for that, I am saying good-bye to NMM support for my mods. I an no longer allowing people to download them through NMM, and it will remain this way until that derogatory and accusatory warning message gets removed.

[Ysne58]

So the response is (I can't say I'm surprised) nothing more than evasive claptrap that makes it sound like he really doesn't care that he is treating the entire user base of NMM as criminals?

Yeah... bad move on his part. General rule of handling an insulted and angered user: apologize and address what insulted them so to avoid it happening again. Not call them a liar' date=' play the superiority card, and say you [i']might[/i] consider addressing the issue.

So for that, I am saying good-bye to NMM support for my mods. I an no longer allowing people to download them through NMM, and it will remain this way until that derogatory and accusatory warning message gets removed.

I'm quoting his latest response. Responding would be a serious waste of my time.======================================================================What position would that be? The position of someone who offers a free, open source service to people? Do you for some reason think that you are a customer who has been wronged? Here's a great idea; how about you help us out with NMM and fix these issues you think exist? Wouldn't that be a great idea!Where do you get off making demands of me? You have no right to do it, you have no grounds to do it, and you'll find it is in fact you who is out of order in your dealings with me. Your entire attitude stinks and makes me resent providing you any sort of service at all.It's insulting, and I'm telling you now I won't stand for it, so choose your next words wisely, or don't bother responding if you're going to stick with the same attitude you've shown here already.Adding in the other staff for reference.

[AndalayBay]

I'm surprised he's taken this so negatively. I'd say he still has a ways to go when it comes to dealing with members. And this is reflected in his moderator team's attitude too.As I said already, the bitter irony of all this is that he's using the wrong criteria to determine if Skyrim is a pirated copy or not.Edit: Just saw your latest post Ysne. Wow, talk about a disconnect. He doesn't see the point you are trying to make at all. And he's bullying you. Nice attitude.

[Ysne58]

I have copy and pasted the entire contents of that pm conversation to a text file on my hard drive. So it is now documented here and on my computer.NMM no longer has my support.Neither does Nexus. I am getting a small amount of money from an inheritance, likely in a month or two. I was planning to use some of that to buy myself a lifetime membership at Nexus. This interaction has resulting in a reevaluation. That lifetime membership isn't happening now.

[Thomas Kaira]

Wow. Seeing that response makes me want to pull all my mods off of Nexus altogether.You provide a free service to people? SO THE FUCK WHAT?! You have an obligation to insure the user's experience is the best it can be, you are also obligated to provide a professional attitude toward those users who are dissatisfied with your service because YOU ARE THE FACE OF IT. If you are going to try and avoid complaints by denying your obligations and coercing the people who do not agree into submission, you are a fucking asshole, and I will not support ANYONE who is as big a douchebag as Dark0ne is now making himself out to be.

[Ysne58]

Wow. Seeing that response makes me want to pull all my mods off of Nexus altogether.

You provide a free service to people? SO THE FUCK WHAT?! You have an obligation to insure the user's experience is the best it can be' date=' you are also obligated to provide a professional attitude toward those users who are dissatisfied with your service because YOU ARE THE FACE OF IT. If you are going to try and avoid complaints be denying your obligations and coercing the people who do not agree into submission, you are a fucking asshole, and I will not support ANYONE who is as big a douchebag as Dark0ne is now making himself out to be.

[/quote']He'll probably ban me if I make any kind of response. As I said in my edited post, he just lost out on the purchase of a lifetime Nexus membership because of this.

[Thomas Kaira]

I got that. I've studied the politics of that site, so when someone says other staff are being involved in your PM, that means you're being blacklisted.Oh, and same for me too. Any hope he had of me getting a paid membership there is now gone. And I also have no more qualms about blocking the ads there, either.

[Arthmoor]

I feel like I'm missing something here. This is all taking place in a public thread?If it's just in PM's, he's going an awfully long way over something as trivial as a program error message. Why does he feel the need to play the intimidation card on this one? That's exactly what he's doing by saying he's bringing in other staff members. Trying to intimidate you over this. It would have been so much easier to just change the message and be done with it. Even if he said nothing at all and did that it would STILL come off better than trying to shout someone down for raising a legitimate issue. He could have had this done 100 times over by now, but instead he'd rather argue about it?As far as a boycott goes, none of us actually needs Nexus. We never have. They're a convenience. Their ability to big-stick themselves as the lead modding site evaporated instantly with Steam Workshop, though they've lost sizable influence with the rise of other sites recently anyway. If we were to drop them, our fans would still have no trouble finding our work. I'm pretty sure most of my hits come off of people finding my RELz threads on BGS.

[AndalayBay]

He clearly doesn't understand Ysne's and Thomas' complaints at all. It'd be nice if the other moderators could see what was going on, but I don't know if they'd speak up or not.

[Arthmoor]

Obviously, but I'm not seeing where this is playing out in a public arena. The tracker post they used has no real activity on it. Hers isn't even the only post there that raises the issue of the bogus error message.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Wow. Seeing that response makes me want to pull all my mods off of Nexus altogether.

You provide a free service to people? SO THE FUCK WHAT?! You have an obligation to insure the user's experience is the best it can be' date=' you are also obligated to provide a professional attitude toward those users who are dissatisfied with your service because YOU ARE THE FACE OF IT. If you are going to try and avoid complaints by denying your obligations and coercing the people who do not agree into submission, you are a fucking asshole, and I will not support ANYONE who is as big a douchebag as Dark0ne is now making himself out to be.

[/quote']Erm, from his point of view he has no obligations to people who are rude to him. Without seeing Ysne's PM's I can't comment, but these things are rarely one-sided.Also, people have different perspectives on how offensive things are, the NMM guys obviously think the current message is just tongue-in-cheek and not deeply offensive, even though to some people it would be.

[Thomas Kaira]

Erm' date=' from his point of view he has no obligations to people who are rude to him. Without seeing Ysne's PM's I can't comment, but these things are rarely one-sided.

Also, people have different perspectives on how offensive things are, the NMM guys obviously think the current message is just tongue-in-cheek and not deeply offensive, even though to some people it would be.[/quote']Read back through the thread a bit, Ysne was quite polite and composed throughout the whole thing. Dark0ne was the one who got all bent out of shape over this.Jokes are fine until someone is offended; if this was a joke, someone just has been. And as far as the "joke" goes, you don't EVER joke about people committing software piracy, I don't care where in the world you are.Plus, he is running an internationally hosted website, so he has to keep in mind that people in different countries have different takes on what is and isn't offensive. America might be a bit paranoid about this, but I am one who feels political correctness is not a good thing and I STILL think that message is highly offensive.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Read back through the thread a bit' date=' Ysne was quite polite and composed throughout the whole thing. Dark0ne was the one who got all bent out of shape over this.

Jokes are fine until someone is offended; if this was a joke, someone just has been. And as far as the "joke" goes, you don't EVER joke about people committing software piracy, I don't care where in the world you are.

Plus, he is running an internationally hosted website, so he has to keep in mind that people in different countries have different takes on what is and isn't offensive. America might be a bit paranoid about this, but I am one who feels political correctness is not a good thing and I STILL think that message is highly offensive.[/quote']This? http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?app=tracker&showissue=2112&st=0&gopid=6543entry6543Ysne does not come off well, text book case of how to piss off a mod team I'm afraid, unless the thread has been pruned to make said team look better.Also, Dark0ne never mosted there - I'm with Arthmoor, what's missing?Also, that message is crass, it isn't deeply offensive unless you want it to be, though.

[Ysne58]

Here is a transcription of all the messages, chronological order. I hope this helps clarify. It is the entire PM conversation. I initiated it because TK asked that I do so. The first pm was slightly irate because I wanted to confirm that the rumors about his ego and rudeness were accurate. As you can see, those rumors do appear to be accurate.I deleted all the header/footer information that was in the PM exchange."My initial p.m. You can find the bug report here:http://forums.nexusm...installed-mods/The last time I was this pissed off was when Giskard pulled that crap in 2008-9 with pretending to go away and give up all of his work and then falsely accused our group of stealing his work after we stepped in and started trying to pick up after his mess..I do not steal other people's work and you have no business falsely accusing me of doing so.____________________________________________________________________________________________________Robin's first responseQuoteI have discussed this with friends. They think NMM is the culprit for deleting those two esm files. If they are right then you 1. deleted my skyrim.esm and update esm files.2. then deleted the content of the plugins.txt file and at the same time3. falsely accused me of piracy.So you go from being falsely accused of doing something, to falsely accusing NMM of doing something. Do you notice the irony in that? Do your friends have any proof to back it up (e.g. they've looked at the source code and found where it's happening) or is it just idle conjecture? If the former, great, please get them to send in the necessary code snippets, if its the latter....You might have noticed but we do not update NMM regularly. That's because we work on a slew of bug fixes and updates before we roll them out (to stop people updating every day). I will enquire to see if changing the text to something that doesn't upset people is in the next build, but cannot guarantee anything.Robin ScottSite owner Report______________________________________________________________________________________________ Reply ysne58 Considering the scope of what you are doing, I wouldn't expect daily updates. However, I do expect a response to a bug report to be prompt. A simple "we are looking into this" or something like that would have helped your case immensely.Next, I started that accusation with "if they are right": and then listed the 3 conclusions. They are the ones that think NMM deleted those two files. I still believe Steam/Beth somehow caused that isssue. The fact is I don't know how those files were deleted, but now, especially with this unacceptable response of yours, I really wonder if I might be wrong in that assumption. You need to make sure NMM is not somehow doing that.Your false accusations of piracy and your foolishly deleting all the mods from my plugins.txt issues are the two big issues here.You owe the whole community an apology for that error screen message. I advise you to make the text of that screen a priority.I would also strongly urge you to make very sure that you are no longer deleting the contents of that plugins.txt file.You should also start working on more professional responses to irate emails. Your response was predictable but also extremely unprofessional for someone in your position. Report __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Dark0neSent Today, 03:34 PMWhat position would that be? The position of someone who offers a free, open source service to people? Do you for some reason think that you are a customer who has been wronged? You aren't even a Premium Member or Supporter so haven't even paid anything to help support the site, so everything you've done on this site has been for free, from my good graces. Here's a great idea; how about you help us out with NMM and fix these issues you think exist? Wouldn't that be a great idea!Where do you get off making demands of me? You have no right or legitimate justification to do it, you have no grounds to do it, and you'll find it is in fact you who is out of order in your dealings with me. Your entire attitude stinks and makes me resent providing you any sort of service at all.It's insulting, and I'm telling you now I won't stand for it, so choose your next words wisely, or don't bother responding if you're going to stick with the same attitude you've shown here already.Adding in the other staff for reference."

[Ysne58]

If anyone is interested here is my latest blog post on the issue:http://ysnesmusings.blogspot.com/2012/04/warning-about-nexus-mod-manager.html

[Arthmoor]

Ok, so yeah. Your initial PM doesn't seem overly hostile, just angry and not afraid to let that show.His response to that was to fly off the handle and purposefully inflame the situation.You responded to that, which he probably wasn't actually expecting. So he escalates further by flat out insulting you and then dragging the staff in as a means to intimidate you. Way to go DarkOne.One thing from your blog post though:

As part of that mod, the player becomes a part of the Vigilant faction. When the mod gets removed, the player is still a member of that faction.

This isn't the fault of NMM that you can't get the player out of that faction when the mod uninstalls. The Vigilants are a vanilla faction that isn't normally joinable. David's mod allows this to take place, in much the same way my own mod allows it to take place. That change will survive the removal of both mods regardless of the method used to install it.This would be no different than an Oblivion mod that allowed you to formally join the Legion or the Nine Divines faction. Without an uninstall script inside the mod, it's a permanent change that could only be undone via the console.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Yep, I can see it now.Dark0ne's sat there, he gets a PM, loads up the thread, sees you shouting, you're comparing him to Giskard, he's upset, he chooses his words poorly.If Arthmoor used board software with a proper WYSIWYG I'd highlight in red all the places you insulted each other in context., as it is, you finished your first PM accusing him of accusing you of stealing people's work.You're pissed, I totally get that, but I also see how you pissed him off. I bet he's shouting at whatever coder put that message in to begin with right now as AFAIK he just runs the site himself.Honestly, I would send this:"Dear Dark0ne,Upon reflection I realise that some of my words could be construed as offensive and I apolagise for speaking out of turn and for accusing NMM of deleting files from my install directory when Steam does appear to be the culprit. However, I still feel I have a right to be agrieved by the tactless error message NMM threw up, and NMM disconecting the Plugin.txt file like that is a serious issue which needs to be addressed, especially because Steam appears to delete files from the install directory without warning.I hope you can appreciate that this issue has touched a raw nerve because is completely screwed up my mod setup and I had to reinstall everything as a result."Calm collected, explain why you are upset precisely, admit where you were wrong factually and for offence caused because this was a misunderstanding.He should then apolagise in kind, and if he doesn't he's a collosal dick.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Ok' date=' so yeah. Your initial PM doesn't seem overly hostile, just angry and not afraid to let that show.

His response to that was to fly off the handle and purposefully inflame the situation.

You responded to that, which he probably wasn't actually expecting. So he escalates further by flat out insulting you and then dragging the staff in as a means to intimidate you. Way to go DarkOne.

One thing from your blog post though:

As part of that mod, the player becomes a part of the Vigilant faction. When the mod gets removed, the player is still a member of that faction.

This isn't the fault of NMM that you can't get the player out of that faction when the mod uninstalls. The Vigilants are a vanilla faction that isn't normally joinable. David's mod allows this to take place, in much the same way my own mod allows it to take place. That change will survive the removal of both mods regardless of the method used to install it.

This would be no different than an Oblivion mod that allowed you to formally join the Legion or the Nine Divines faction. Without an uninstall script inside the mod, it's a permanent change that could only be undone via the console.

Seen holistically, Ysne can be seen as offensive, having breached several cultural norms in the bug report thread including NOT SHOUTING. I would probably have been none too pleased to be dealing with this, but I'm a pretty forgiving guy and less personally touchy. The first message reads like Ysne is personally accusing Dark0ne of levelling the Acusation of piracy.This may be a trans-Atlantic thing. In Ysne's place I would apolagise and expect exactly the same from Dark0ne, then if I didn't get it I'd tell him to fuck RIGHT off.