TES V: Skyrim

[Thomas Kaira]

Seen holistically' date=' Ysne can be seen as offensive, having breached several cultural norms in the bug report thread including NOT SHOUTING. I would probably have been none too pleased to be dealing with this, but I'm a pretty forgiving guy and less personally touchy. The first message reads like Ysne is personally accusing Dark0ne of levelling the Acusation of piracy.

This may be a trans-Atlantic thing. In Ysne's place I would apolagise and expect exactly the same from Dark0ne, then if I didn't get it I'd tell him to fuck RIGHT off.[/quote']To be frank, I would have gotten pretty pissed if I had been accused of software piracy baselessly and with no evidence to back the accusation. However, I do understand what you are saying, and looking back, agree that the whole thing could have been handled better by all parties.As to Ysne's allegation that Dark0ne is accusing here, think of it like this: NMM is his site's tool, which means it is his responsibility to manage its development while the tool is knocked together by kaburke. If he had seen that message before, it would mean he approved of it being inserted into the latest release build, which could easily be seen as Dark0ne levelling the accusation. After all, he approved of the message saying that, didn't he? If he didn't know, fine, but in that case I'd request that he keep a closer eye on NMM's development from then on.Everything you do as a website host reflects back onto yourself. Let a person developing a tool for your site insert an accusatory message into the tool? You're the one who is accusing them. Not the developer, because if you did not approve of that message being present, you would not have allowed him to include it.Dark0ne is the face of Nexus, thus accusations levelled by the website are seen as his words.

[Dwip]

FWIW, I'm more or less with Sigurd on this one.On the one hand, Ysne's complaints are completely valid. On the other hand, tone matters, and getting irate at somebody in the first message isn't a great move, no matter how valid the complaint, as I am in the unfortunate position to know fairly well. Which is to say that I find Dark0ne's first response relatively fine - yeah, ok, we'll look into the message, also can you back your other assertions up with anything (though expecting random people to sift through code is pretty insane).Thereafter the whole thing kind of goes off the rails. Not to call you a demanding jackass, Ysne, since I don't think you are, but from Dark0ne's perspective that's kind of how you come off, and I'm sure all of us who are mod authors and have done support can say that it's hard to have a lot of sympathy for folks who talk to us in that tone, especially if the assertions being made are somewhat vague. I'd imagine that he deals with quite a lot of that sort of thing every day, and that's got to wear a little bit.Which in no way excuses the completely unprofessional response, of course, nor the expectation that you fix his problems, nor several other issues beyond that.Where I'm going to differ from Sigurd is to note that telling him to fuck off is just going to get you banned, and while possibly satisfying, probably not worth it.In conclusion, you'll probably be happier with Bash in the long run anyway.

[Ysne58]

I'm in the process of making the switch over to BAIN now. I need to get some more practice in before I can completely uninstall NMM.As far as my first message goes, I deliberately worded it that way to test a hypothesis -- that Robin Scott really is as unprofessional as his reputation says he is. I'm really glad I found out just how unprofessional he is before buying a lifetime membership there than after.Frankly, as the representative of his site, he has an obligation to be professional in his dealings with site users. Whether or not he approved that message is not relevant. The fact is, it's his software, he is responsible for what goes in it.Not only am I offended by that message, and I have a right to be, but I spent two whole days repairing the damage NMM did to my Skyrim install. And I still don't have it completely fixed.

[Ysne58]

Thanks for clarifying about the first issue I raised Arthmoor. I have altered my post to reflect that.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

[To be frank' date= I would have gotten pretty pissed if I had been accused of software piracy baselessly and with no evidence to back the accusation. However, I do understand what you are saying, and looking back, agree that the whole thing could have been handled better by all parties.

As to Ysne's allegation that Dark0ne is accusing here, think of it like this: NMM is his site's tool, which means it is his responsibility to manage its development while the tool is knocked together by kaburke. If he had seen that message before, it would mean he approved of it being inserted into the latest release build, which could easily be seen as Dark0ne levelling the accusation. After all, he approved of the message saying that, didn't he? If he didn't know, fine, but in that case I'd request that he keep a closer eye on NMM's development from then on.

Everything you do as a website host reflects back onto yourself. Let a person developing a tool for your site insert an accusatory message into the tool? You're the one who is accusing them. Not the developer, because if you did not approve of that message being present, you would not have allowed him to include it.

Dark0ne is the face of Nexus, thus accusations levelled by the website are seen as his words.[/quote]That's an extreme way of looking at things, and it assumes Dark0ne is an omnicient God who controls all his coders, as it was NMM, not the website, that leveled the accusations and it was a freaking popup, not a personal email from the Man himself. I'm sorry, but I find your reasoning a stretch bordering on the absurd, which is no doubt how Dark0ne sees it too.

I'm in the process of making the switch over to BAIN now. I need to get some more practice in before I can completely uninstall NMM.

As far as my first message goes' date=' I deliberately worded it that way to test a hypothesis -- that Robin Scott really is as unprofessional as his reputation says he is. I'm really glad I found out just how unprofessional he is before buying a lifetime membership there than after.

Frankly, as the representative of his site, he has an obligation to be professional in his dealings with site users. Whether or not he approved that message is not relevant. The fact is, it's his software, he is responsible for what goes in it.

Not only am I offended by that message, and I have a right to be, but I spent two whole days repairing the damage NMM did to my Skyrim install. And I still don't have it completely fixed.

[/quote']So you deliberately trolled him and he proved prickly? OK, well done, now apolagise and find out if he's actually a dick.As to him being "unprofesional", the guy runs a mod hosting website part time, free of charge. It's not his profession, and he is not obliged by anything other than common courtesy, which you violated first. Demanding "profesional" conduct from me would piss me off in the extreme, actually, if it was for something I did part time to serve a community I was a part of. On the other hand, if you told me I was being rude, or unfair, you might get a more favourable response.My reading of this is that you are, iirc, American and Dark0ne is English like me and what you have hit is the invisible cultural barrier.

[Thomas Kaira]

That's an extreme way of looking at things' date=' and it assumes Dark0ne is an omnicient God who controls all his coders, as it was NMM, not the website, that leveled the accusations and it was a freaking popup, not a personal email from the Man himself. I'm sorry, but I find your reasoning a stretch bordering on the absurd, which is no doubt how Dark0ne sees it too.[/quote']In case you haven't seen, he is paying the coders to develop the tool. So yes, he should be scrutinizing their work with a magnifying glass and trying to avoid scenarios like this. He is paying for it, which makes him the owner, therefore he is responsible for it. You cannot talk your way out of responsibility of ownership no matter what you think, you pay for it, you control it, and you are responsible for it. Thus, people put Robin's face to that pop-up when they see it. NMM is his tool, therefore it can be easily construed that he is the one who is voicing those words. This may have been grayer had Robin not been paying for its development, but the fact of the matter is that his is paying people to make the program, and that makes judging ownership and responsibility a helluva lot easier.Evidence to my claimHowever, in the end, this is what I have been trying to get across: software piracy is not an accusation to be taken lightly, especially in America as we wrote the DMCA. If you want to go off on us for taking an accusation of piracy seriously, sue us.Cultural barrier? Maybe. But there is an easy way out of this: change that pop-up to not accuse the user of copyright infringement. That's five seconds of typing, and in return, you get rid of a controversy waiting to happen.

[Ysne58]

"So you deliberately trolled him and he proved prickly? OK, well done, now apolagise and find out if he's actually a dick."

It wasn't a trolling message it was a message from an angry user of NMM who was subjected to an offensive message and damage to her Skyrim install caused by deletion of the plugins.txt. file. There is a huge difference between trolling and angry. And yes this is a profession for him and I have every right to expect him to behave in a professional manner. Piracy is a serious accustaion, and as a mod tester I have every right to get mad when someone pulls this kind of bullshit."As to him being "unprofesional", the guy runs a mod hosting website part time, free of charge. It's not his profession, and he is not obliged by anything other than common courtesy, which you violated first. Demanding "profesional" conduct from me would piss me off in the extreme, actually, if it was for something I did part time to serve a community I was a part of. On the other hand, if you told me I was being rude, or unfair, you might get a more favourable response."Unprofessional is an attitude. Robin Scott appears to have that in spades. Professionalism includes reading an angry email, looking at the validity of the issue and then if appropriate, dealing with it. I have listened to numerous complaints over the years about his attitude. As I said, and as you read for yourself, the message is angry and not trolling. It would be trolling if there were not truth to the complaint. Since my complaints about what NMM did are valid that was not a trolling message.I will also add that I have, over the years been the recipient of many messages similar to the one I sent to Robin. I never, ever responded in kind, and I always looked for the issues behind the message, if necessary sought clarification, and tried to help the user with the issue or point the user to a resource that would help the user deal with that issue.Common courtesy: Is putting an offensive error message into your program, arranging things so you cannot close that program other than by opening the task manager, and damaging software on your users computer courteous behavior? I think not. He violated this first.

My reading of this is that you are, iirc, American and Dark0ne is English like me and what you have hit is the invisible cultural barrier. I no longer care whether there is an invisible cultural barrier. He has been running the Nexus Site for years and he is well aware of what those are and how to properly handle them. I am not going to apologize to someone who introduces malicious code into his software and thinks it's ok. And that error message qualifies as malicious code, the inability to close the program after that qualifies as malicious code, removing the text from the plugins.txt file in the appdata/skyrim folder also qualifies as malicious code.

In short, while your advice to apologize is well meaning, I won't be following it.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Sorry, I don't agree. I honestly think you are overreacting and blowing this out of proportion. In particular, you have now accused Robine of introducing "malicious" code, that's a more serious accusation than, "your install is corrupt, so either you deleted a file or pirated the game. At least that allows for user error.PROVE that NMM is deliberately DESIGNED to FUBAR your mod install, otherwise it's just bad code, malice requires intent.Beyond that, sorry but if you're comparing someone to Giskard for the sake of provoking a reaction, that's a minor troll really.I've said my piece I'll just leave you with the observation that if I am a remotely realonable person then you should at least consider the fact that I can be sympathetic to both sides of the argument.

[Thomas Kaira]

Sorry, Ysne, but I have to agree with Sigurd on that one. Accusing Robin of inserting malicious code into the program is right up there with NMM accusing you of piracy, and to do so blindly is nothing short of hypocrisy.Lets all just take a deep breath and calm down here, because this is getting way out of hand.

[Ysne58]

You have the right to your opinion, I have the right to mine. I'm the first to admit that I get mad when I see a message containing the word piracy, try to close the mod and instead of seeing it close have the message come back over and over and over again until I finally use the task manager to force it to close and then when I finally get the issue fixed find out that none of my mods show up because the plugins.txt file had been deleted.Regarding the comparison to Giskard, he falsely accused the team I was a part of, of stealing his work, that message accuses me of stealing the skyrim software. The comparison is actually a valid one. You are entitled to disagree with my opinion on that one. There is a huge difference between the two people as Robin Scott doesn't habitually engage in the melodramatics that Giskard does. The only possible program that could have deleted the contents of my plugins.txt file is NMM. Prior to last Thursday it was the only launcher I used. I don't have the ability to actually look at the code. If you do. feel free to take a look and see if my logical conclusion is correct or incorrect. I will take back the word malicious. If it is just bad code, it does need to be fixed and he just plain and simply doesn't care.I'm glad you can see both sides.

Sorry' date=' I don't agree. I honestly think you are overreacting and blowing this out of proportion. In particular, you have now accused Robine of introducing "malicious" code, that's a more serious accusation than, "your install is corrupt, so either you deleted a file or pirated the game. At least that allows for user error.

PROVE that NMM is deliberately DESIGNED to FUBAR your mod install, otherwise it's just bad code, malice requires intent.

Beyond that, sorry but if you're comparing someone to Giskard for the sake of provoking a reaction, that's a minor troll really.

I've said my piece I'll just leave you with the observation that if I am a remotely realonable person then you should at least consider the fact that I can be sympathetic to both sides of the argument.[/quote']

[Arthmoor]

As to him being "unprofesional"' date=' the guy runs a mod hosting website part time, free of charge. It's not his profession, and he is not [i']obliged[/i] by anything other than common courtesy, which you violated first. Demanding "profesional" conduct from me would piss me off in the extreme, actually, if it was for something I did part time to serve a community I was a part of. On the other hand, if you told me I was being rude, or unfair, you might get a more favourable response.

Actually the fact that he's raking in money on ads (don't tell me he's not) and is able to afford paying for 2-3 full time programmers means he's gone from running a hobbyist site part time to running a full fledged business full time. Like it or not, he's become the public face of Nexus and his behavior reflects on that.He may be an opinionated hot head (like me) but there's a time and a place for that, and interacting with your customers is not it. Yes, I said customers. He may not agree, but he's got people paying him for his services now and like it or not, that makes them customers.

[AndalayBay]

And whether they are paying customers or not, they should be treated with courtesy, not bullied. He gets away with treating people like shit because most of them are kids that don't know any better.Anyway, moving on. Arthmoor, is there an SVN of Wrye Bash that's pretty stable for Skyrim? Every time I look at the thread all I see are more error reports, but I don't know if those problems are universal or specific to certain set-ups.

[Hana]

I'm in the process of making the switch over to BAIN now. I need to get some more practice in before I can completely uninstall NMM.

You do realize NMM and BAIN do entirely different things?

As far as my first message goes' date=' I deliberately worded it that way to test a hypothesis -- that Robin Scott really is as unprofessional as his reputation says he is.[/quote']Sorry' date=' but that is a deliberate troll if that's your attitude. I agree with Sigurd on that one. Writing angry emails sets a certain tone (agreeing with Dwip) that the receiver is not going to accept politely.

Not only am I offended by that message' date=' and I have a right to be,[/quote']Yes, you have every right to be.

....but I spent two whole days repairing the damage NMM did to my Skyrim install.

Sorry? Where's the proof? Yeah, I can see his side too.Whatever happened sucks, 100%. But you don't KNOW what happened. To top it off you get a ridiculous message from a 3rd party tool. Fine. Be angry at that, but let's stop accusing Robin and everyone at Nexus of being intentionally malicious.As Andalay said... anyway, moving on ....

[Thomas Kaira]

This discussion is now about sweetrolls.Q: So, if a bullying kid were to corner you in an alley after you bought one of Salmo's famous sweetrolls, and he demanded to have it, what would you do?A: Fus Ro Dah!

[Arthmoor]

Anyway' date=' moving on. Arthmoor, is there an SVN of Wrye Bash that's pretty stable for Skyrim? Every time I look at the thread all I see are more error reports, but I don't know if those problems are universal or specific to certain set-ups.[/quote']Yes, revision 2361. It hasn't been updated since March but works with Boss 2.0+. I'm going to guess that 90% or more of those error posts are from people who shouldn't be using an SVN version to begin with. Although they have little choice considering.

[AndalayBay]

Ok thanks. I'll give it a try. Yeah not sure where the WB guys went. Myk hasn't been around since last year. I think it's too much for Lojack to handle on his own.

[Arthmoor]

Lojack is just plain sick of it actually, and I can't blame him for that. If I knew the first thing about Python, let alone the gory details of the game's data structures, I'd be more than happy to help out. I think right now what we need is for someone to issue an update to the public package and base it off of 2361. It's better than nothing.

[Arthmoor]

And mysteries deepen. I just noticed all my files have been arbitrarily redated in Wrye Bash and are now set as 11-11-11, all one minute apart from each other. Almost as though BOSS had done a load order update. Except I don't even have BOSS installed other than the API the SVN version is using. There's no sort functionality I know of that could have done this.

[AndalayBay]

That's weird. I do have BOSS installed and it doesn't even touch my plugins anymore. I haven't installed the Bash SVN yet, so I'm still running 295.5 right now.

[Ysne58]

It's a conspiracy I tell ya.

[Thomas Kaira]

Skyrim - Animations.BSA:AnimationsCrossBow_1stP_Run.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_1stP_Walk.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_Aim.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_Equip.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_IdleDrawn.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_IdleHeld.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_Release.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunBackward.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunBackwardLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunBackwardRight.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunForward.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunForwardLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunForwardRight.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_RunRight.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkBackward.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkBackwardLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkBackwardRight.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkForward.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkForwardLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkForwardRight.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkLeft.hkxAnimationsCrossBow_WalkRight.hkxCould it be?

[Arthmoor]

Saw that shortly after patch 1.5.24 came along. I'd say chances are good, although I never got the fascination with crossbows

[Thomas Kaira]

They're CROSSBOWS.You don't need much more than that. Well, in all seriousness, it's a major boon for roleplayers, since the Long Bow has always been seen as the weapon of the Rogue archetype. Crossbows are warrior's weapons, as they were what you saw the most in the medieval battlefield. Not as precise, but much more powerful and easier to use. And much heavier.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

They're CROSSBOWS.

You don't need much more than that.

Well' date=' in all seriousness, it's a major boon for roleplayers, since the Long Bow has always been seen as the weapon of the Rogue archetype. Crossbows are warrior's weapons, as they were what you saw the most in the medieval battlefield. Not as precise, but much more powerful and easier to use. And much heavier.[/quote']Yeah?Well my Crusader in Morrowind learned to use a bow properly, it took him hours and hours of aiming practice and thousands in training lessons, but he still became Tamiel's greatest ever archer.

[Ysne58]

Best practices -- save and back that save up before testing a mod. Arthmoor is 100% correct on this one.