Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Wait a minute ... so' date=' not only are they going to force me to get an unnecessary Steam account to play, they're going to force me to play over an internet connection so they can change stats of swords whenever they feel like it? (direct quote from that link).

Er, no thanks.[/quote']Not to mention automatically apply patches that accidentally break your game.Less and less excited here.

[Dwip]

Clearly my experiences with repair in Oblivion and Morrowind and everyone else's experiences with repair in Oblivion and Morrowind were not the same.As to the autopatching thing, I dunno. Could be good. May not be good. Valve certainly does it pretty well, and if we don't have to wait geologic ages of the earth for patches like with Oblivion, that's got to be a good thing. Not sure I'm thrilled about the phone home aspects, and I'm not sure I'm wholly comfortable with an automated system, but I guess we'll see.

[Arthmoor]

They're trying really really hard to push PC Gaming off the cliff to its death. Phone home always-on style connection activity in the background? HELLO? Anyone who isn't thinking Ubisoft right about now needs their head examined.First it's Steamworks, then selling their soul to Microsoft for DLC exclusives, and now this? Fuck, I'm finding it very VERY hard to justify making this purchase at this point.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Clearly my experiences with repair in Oblivion and Morrowind and everyone else's experiences with repair in Oblivion and Morrowind were not the same.

Bought a claymore from the smith at Thirsk, didn't check the condition before I bought it, got it cheap but had to go back for hammers.That will never happen in Skyrim.Thomas it correct, faced with any kind of difficulty Beth will strip something out rather than fix it. At this ppoint Skyrim is going to need a bloody good story to be worth the RRP.

[Dwip]

In other news, Skyrim also murders kittens. And causes cancer in pandas. Transfer your CE preorders to me and get out while you can. I will deal with the wanton kitten slaughter and spare you the trauma.Re: repair, its primary function in my games is to save me a little bit of gold at the smith, and as a whole it's mostly just there to annoy the shit out of me, contrary to other skills that actually do things that are beneficial to me. So, yeah, you know, I just had a fairly involved Sedya Neen to Vivec run where I fought so many guys I had to run back to Vivec for weapon repair. You know what? I could also live without that. Yeah, I'd probably be happy if they did something like they did with the F:NV crafting system, but oh well. We also know, correct me if I'm wrong, all of jack shit about how it really works, so I'll wait to see if the sky falls on my head until we get there.And yeah, mages are going to be worthless, except when they drop fireballs on you, summon daedra on top of you, paralyze you, and about ten other things. I don't know about anybody else, but the weapon/armor degradation spells were some of the weakest spells in the game.As far as the Ubisoft thing goes, you're aware of what that actually means, right? When Bethesda's trying-to-be-Windows-Update thing limits me to a set # of installs, and requires me to remain constantly connected to the internet or my game crashes, please, get back to me.Microsoft DLC exclusivity has been true as far back as FO3, though PC users got it at the same time because of the GFWL debacle. F:NV is doing, right now, the same thing with Xbox 360. Annoying, to be sure, but hardly the death of PC gaming.

[prettyfly]

Unfortunately, Sigurd, I'm highly doubtful that Skyrim will have the type of story that can make up for the stripping down of the RPG elements (assuming thats what you're after; perhaps you just want a good story). Its not that Beth writes bad stories per say; they just don't write stories that let you truly role play a character (at least in my experience with Oblivion and FO3).Which is why I'm terrified about Beth removing RPG elements on the technical side of things; because knowing them I wouldn't be surprised if we were forced to support a particular side in the civil war.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Unfortunately' date=' Sigurd, I'm highly doubtful that Skyrim will have the type of story that can make up for the stripping down of the RPG elements (assuming thats what you're after; perhaps you just want a good story). Its not that Beth writes bad stories per say; they just don't write stories that let you truly role play a character (at least in my experience with Oblivion and FO3).Which is why I'm terrified about Beth removing RPG elements on the technical side of things; because knowing them I wouldn't be surprised if we were forced to support a particular side in the civil war.[/quote']At this point it's going to need to be Bioware level, because the RPG stat/interaction level has dropped back to that.I played Fable one, I didn't play Fable 2 or 3, I don't need Fable 4.

[Thomas Kaira]

Bad news for the criminal scum of you out there. Wes Johnson is most certainly providing voice talent for Skyrim.

[prettyfly]

Or at least NV style options. But based on what has been indicated by Todd, we're definitely not going to be getting anything remotely close to that much choice.

[Dwip]

Or at least NV style options. But based on what has been indicated by Todd' date=' we're definitely not going to be getting anything remotely close to that much choice.[/quote']Which is unfortunate, because NV was amazing like that. Good thing we have us, though, right?@ThomasKaira - So, re: all that business about patching... "Stop! You've violated the code!"Or something.Also, we should all think on the bright side, here. Mammoths.

[Thomas Kaira]

Bethesda: builds incredible game worlds, but bad writing overly simplistic gameplay (across the board, Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3) drag them down.Obsidian: Excellent gameplay concepts and great writing, but execution tends to be a buggy mess.These two really should merge together. Combine Obsidian's writing and gameplay concepts with Bethesda's world-building skills and we would have a force to be reckoned with.

[prettyfly]

I think Beth should really think about hiring top modders to help them develop games a well. You can tell Oscuro was working on NV and his influence is clearly something for the better (assuming I've got this fact right).Its true of course that they've taken good mod concepts and intergrated them into Skyrim, but typically, they've made mistakes that the modders themselves wouldn't have. I mean, come on, no blocking while dual wielding?

[Hana]

<3 Wes Johnson's voice. Wonder if that's enough to entice me back.Nah, only Sean Bean could do that.

[Arthmoor]

At this point it's going to need to be Bioware level' date=' because the RPG stat/interaction level has dropped back to that.[/quote']You want them to degrade the game even further? Sorry, but I don't buy this whole "Bioware is the best" angle people keep coming up with. Maybe the Bioware of old, but nothing they've put out in the last 3 years has been what I'd call stellar.@Dwip: Way to mock people standing up for their consumer rights.

[prettyfly]

I certainly prefer the Beth style of story telling (which, to be perfectly honest, has only really come close to perfection with NV) over Bioware's style, but I think there is still a lot of merit in what Bioware does. It does not, however, suit a Beth style RPG.

[Dwip]

@SamsonI dunno about you, but DA:O had a pretty great story. Gameplay sure left a lot to be desired, though. Maybe if Bethesda just kidnapped David Gaider?But they wrote BG2 and KOTOR, so that pretty much gives them a pass forever, or at least a long time.As to the other, there's a difference between "standing up for your consumer rights" and "wild hyperbole", and I think the Ubisoft thing tramples straight over that. As to the "Onoes repair and health regen and OMG we haven't even seen the game yet" stuff, well.@prettyflyAnd of course, F:NV wasn't really a Bethesda game in any way that mattered. With the exception of vast swathes of the main plot and the entire Point Lookout DLC, I thought they did ok with FO3 though. Also, you're right that the mod influence in F:NV was strong, to its benefit. Weapon Mod Kits, anyway?

[prettyfly]

@DwipI was thinking more of just the way the story is told in game more from a technical perspective (i.e. the dialogue system and notes as well as your character lacking a voice and backstory), which NV kept exactly the same. But when I use such terms as 'Beth style' I suppose I'm only asking to confuse people. :headbang:Also; FO3; I didn't even have a problem with Point Lookout, it was just the damn main quest that let me down.

[Arthmoor]

I fail to see how comparing it to Ubisoft is in any way hyperbolic. The information we have strongly suggests you'll require an always-on internet connection, which is what people bitch about with Ubisoft all the time. It's especially strange that they seem to want to turn this into an on the fly update system where your master file could change on a whim, rendering any mods you've created against it a pain in the ass to keep up.DA:O doesn't hold a candle to the greatness of the old days, and I'm not a sycophant willing to give them a pass forever either. Loads of people have commented that they blew it hardcore with DA2, and many people have also said they blew it hardcore with Mass Effect. Their demo for DA2 wasn't the least bit compelling.As far as armor degradation, you appear to be the only person on Earth who thinks the idea sucks and will be happy to see it gone. Repairing damaged gear seems to me to be a logical way to improve one's crafting skills. So I don't get why they're removing that. By itself it isn't a deal breaker, but they've been systematically console-izing the game to the point where it's added up to quite a lot to complain about.

[Dwip]

@prettyflySee, I think Obsidian did a lot of little refinements over FO3's dialogue (more checks, options, etc) that make it stand out. They're also just flat out better writers, but like I say, FO3 did good enough.@SamsonWhat we know about this thing so far is that if you're connected to the internet, it will do some sort of automatic error fixing. So far as I'm aware, that doesn't seem to be so much required as "we think this is a good idea." This differs from Ubisoft's DRM in a couple important ways, most notably being that it isn't DRM. We may also be sure that if you lose internet connection, Skyrim won't obliterate all your progress in the game, which is how Ubisoft's DRM works. So, no. There's a lot going on there besides "You have to always be on the internet." Pretending that this one feature is somehow analogous to the most draconian DRM scheme known to man is inaccurate, and considering the scale, hyperbolic.Which should not be taken to mean that I think it's a wonderful idea, because I really don't know that I do, but that will heavily depend on how things shake out.Our milage clearly varies on DA:O, though obviously nothing is ever going to be as awesome as Baldur's Gate 2 was ever again (which is good, since BG2 almost made me flunk out of college), but in terms of storytelling it's clearly well above average.As to armor degredation, eh. I wouldn't care if it stayed, but I'm not shedding many tears now that it's leaving. As to the console thing, well, we'll see how things play out. It's obviously gone completely downhill since they took out spears, but somehow we've managed, if only poorly.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

You want them to degrade the game even further? Sorry' date=' but I don't buy this whole "Bioware is the best" angle people keep coming up with. Maybe the Bioware of old, but nothing they've put out in the last 3 years has been what I'd call stellar.[/quote']Dragon Age Origins was an excellent game, but you are correct that their last masterpiece was KOTOR, in its own way Dragon Age was almost as good, but the simple fact is that *most* RPG's have bland and uninteresting heroes with less character development than Luke Skywalker.DA:O suffered from that, Mass Effect doesn't (by all accounts) and DA2 tried to walk the line and failed. At least they're doing interesting things though.As to the system, what I meant was that Skyrim's engine is already about as stripped as a Bioware game, so without a Bioware story it isn't really worth the RRP. I'll get the GOTY version, maybe.

[Arthmoor]

Well, no, on the engine front I can't agree with you. Bioware top-down 3D games don't even hold a candle to Morrowind, much less Oblivion or Skyrim. One thing Bethesda consistently does better than anyone, anywhere, is building fully open 3D worlds.The content they put in them though? That's clearly up for debate at this point. If you never talk to an NPC in your life, then Skyrim will be the best game ever made (barring shoving draconian DRM down our throats). Although even then, Bethesda's NPC interaction is better than a whole lot of companies. Namely better than Obsidian by a long shot.

[Dwip]

See, I thought DA:O gave just about the right amount of "This is who your character is" stuff. The origin stories were pretty brilliant. KOTOR's revelation (he says, trying to avoid spoiling Samson) was pretty epic too, but not quite the same. Nothing Bioware's ever done is going to live up to the two Baldur's Gate games ever, but they mostly (DA2 possibly excepted?) give it a good try.Agree with Samson. Bethesda does the fully open 3D world amazingly in a way that nobody else really attempts, and Bioware has never held a candle to. DA:O's engine was good for Bioware, but they have a ways to go yet.All of that said, and granted it was a Bethesda engine, but F:NV heartily disagrees about Obsidian NPC interaction. Think FO3 with way better writing.As to Skyrim, well, if you went in expecting the Great American NovelComputer Game Plot, you were always going to be disappointed. It's not what Bethesda does, which is free range worlds. Gameplay? I dunno, we'll see. I bitch about spears a lot, and I miss flight, but in an awful lot of ways the gameplay in Oblivion is unambiguously better than in Morrowind. Yeah, we lose repair in Skyrim, but we also get skill trees and crafting and what have you. So we'll see how it plays out.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

See' date=' I thought DA:O gave just about the right amount of "This is who your character is" stuff. The origin stories were pretty brilliant. KOTOR's revelation (he says, trying to avoid spoiling Samson) was pretty epic too, but not quite the same. Nothing Bioware's ever done is going to live up to the two Baldur's Gate games ever, but they mostly (DA2 possibly excepted?) give it a good try.[/quote']Never got very far into Balder's Gate, I have them on windows DVD but getting them to run was a pain and then I got distracted, by KOTOR I think.However, KOTOR was something special - it put you in the Star Wars universe and made it feel like the war you were fighting was just as important as anything in the films, more so because you have to do your thing first. It also managed to do "Star Wars" without it just looking like the films with a paint job; something Obsidion completely failed to do with KOTOR2, it does look just like the films.SWOTOR looks like it is once again treading that line quite neatly, after all you wouldn't expect things to change *that* much in a highly advanced pan-Galactic civilisation already 20,000 years old.

Agree with Samson. Bethesda does the fully open 3D world amazingly in a way that nobody else really attempts, and Bioware has never held a candle to. DA:O's engine was good for Bioware, but they have a ways to go yet.

True, but the last time they really did this was Morrowind. Oblivion was only better in a few limited directions, like pretty terrain. The actual world they built was deeply dissatisfying, the world is about half as full as Morrowind was despite being 40% bigger, the Imperial city in particular was a real letdown, part of why I use Better Cities to add more crap to the game, just so it feels less empty.

As to Skyrim, well, if you went in expecting the Great American NovelComputer Game Plot, you were always going to be disappointed. It's not what Bethesda does, which is free range worlds. Gameplay? I dunno, we'll see. I bitch about spears a lot, and I miss flight, but in an awful lot of ways the gameplay in Oblivion is unambiguously better than in Morrowind. Yeah, we lose repair in Skyrim, but we also get skill trees and crafting and what have you. So we'll see how it plays out.

It's not just repair though, it's fewer skills, fewer stats, fewer equipment slots, fewer spells, fewer large cities...Right now it feels like Skyrim is going to be less bang for your buck. So I don't feel like playing the RRP, that's all.I'll probably still buy the game, but I'm not expecting a nerdgasm when I do.Many more dissapointments like this and I'll have saved enough money to play SWOTOR for a year.

[Dwip]

Both BGs are heartily recommended, well worth your time if you can get them to run (an XP box works well enough, though they may run ok natively in 7). DA:O is, at its heart, an inferior version of what was accomplished in BG2. It has a good chance of being the best RPG I've ever played.I think you're right about KOTOR, in that if you ever saw a Star Wars movie and said "I want to play that!" then KOTOR is definitely your game (hey Samson, can we entice you to play it yet?), but I still got an awful lot of KOTOR2.Re: Morrowind vs. Oblivion, I disagree. It's not so much that the world is less full of stuff in Oblivion (Oblivion feels to have more dungeon per square mile to me than Morrowind), it's less full of PEOPLE (see post in Random Stuff thread) and so it feels like there's less going on. Pretty terrain is somewhat secondary to that. I'll also say that once you turn the fog off, Morrowind starts looking a whole lot smaller than it did in 2002.

[Sigurð Stormhand]

Both BGs are heartily recommended' date=' well worth your time if you can get them to run (an XP box works well enough, though they may run ok natively in 7). DA:O is, at its heart, an inferior version of what was accomplished in BG2. It has a good chance of being the best RPG I've ever played.[/quote']People keep saying this, but it didn't grab me off the bat, I suppose that's playing it in 2005 with 1990's graphics, I must put the time in to actually get into it one day.

I think you're right about KOTOR, in that if you ever saw a Star Wars movie and said "I want to play that!" then KOTOR is definitely your game (hey Samson, can we entice you to play it yet?), but I still got an awful lot of KOTOR2.

Yup, it also stands up on its own merits, bbut it gets huge bonus points for re-inventing Star Wars and coming at it from a different direction, it's the little things - like not having the same flippin Jedi robes as every other game (KOTOR2 produced fail here, while looking like Obi-Wan with my robes and Lightsaber is kinda cool for about ten minutes, I've been there before).

Re: Morrowind vs. Oblivion, I disagree. It's not so much that the world is less full of stuff in Oblivion (Oblivion feels to have more dungeon per square mile to me than Morrowind), it's less full of PEOPLE (see post in Random Stuff thread) and so it feels like there's less going on. Pretty terrain is somewhat secondary to that. I'll also say that once you turn the fog off, Morrowind starts looking a whole lot smaller than it did in 2002.

By "full" I really meant people and number of houses, etc. Balmora occupies what, 4 cells, but it has as much stuff, or more, than any Oblivion town. Oblivion gave a somewhat greater feeling of scale, but given that the province itself was bigger this was a largely false impression. The scale between Oblivion and Morrowind is really about 1:1, I would say.Your opertunity to interact and influence the world in Oblivion is much more limited, but the visual style and the fact that people (appear to) actually do stuff places greater strain on modders. For example, I can't really just have a made stand in front of a sink and say "I'm doing the washing" because you expect her to actually pick up the brush and scrub. Problem is, who's going to create that animation.