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Arthmoor

[RELz] Cutting Room Floor

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On 7/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Arthmoor said:

I'm not sure what it is you've contributed other than reporting a few bugs here and there. In any case, given than I am seeing no issues in testing, I'm reluctant to just apply a patch for a bunch of navmeshes the CK says test out fine and followers don't have issues with navigating. I especially do not see any missing border links between cells anywhere. Are you sure you haven't somehow incorporated an old navmesh into things?

Wow, how soon we forget. Dozens of posts in multiple forae, finding unfinished stuff and creating proposed patches, and of course bugs and their fixes. I've always viewed this as a community effort.

Of course, Touring Carriages would be cutting room floor as well, but Khulmann and Solar had shown parts of the way, and by then I'd made it work already.

I'm surprised that your followers have no issues. I'd spent considerable time over a week period figuring out the problems. Then a very long, tiring, 15 hour day fixing some of them and repeatedly testing to ensure it worked better.

Since you especially do not see any bad border links, I've done another tutorial for just one of them at:

  https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/5229-navmesh-repair/&do=findComment&comment=175537

Also, listed the others in the Frost River area at:

  https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/5229-navmesh-repair/&do=findComment&comment=175540

For the record, my scripts tell me there are 212 renumbered border triangles in the whole CRF. Obviously, some of them are necessary. I've fixed those that are crucial to only two cells as they affected Touring Carriages. Much more needs to be done.

I'm using the most recent CRF 3.1.4. Please manually check my changes with xEdit for your own satisfaction. Note how many triangles are now at their original vertices.

Installation should be an easy drag and drop of each navmesh line into CRF. (I've tested that, too.)

 

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You must be thinking of someone else because you've never sent me any patches for missing stuff or I'd have made sure to document that like I do with anything else anyone submits actual work for. You seem to presume that you can just waltz in and claim credit for things you didn't do.

All you've done this time is provide me with a bad navmesh patch that I have no intention of incorporating because it wipes out a ton of work I did on the road pathing to make it work properly, plus your patch adds junk navmesh data to the roofs of two buildings that absolutely have no need for that. So I'm certainly not about to just blindly take data you say is necessary when it's not.

I don't need to be "reeducated" on how to do navmeshes. I know full well what goes into doing them correctly and how to read the CK for any anomalies, errors, etc. There are none to be found and I know full well how to properly test them with NPC followers. No issues have come up at all. The Frost River guards are fine with it. The local residents are fine with it. All of the vanilla followers are fine with it.

You say "much more needs to be done" but I see nothing that needs to be messed with at this point. I'll make this clear again as I know I've done once before - I am not concerned about how Touring Carriages is affected because that's not my mod. If CRF doesn't work right with it, that's not my fault, because CRF works with CRF and plenty of other things too.

You need to back off. The modding world doesn't revolve around you and your mod.

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On 7/17/2019 at 11:55 PM, Arthmoor said:

All you've done this time is provide me with a bad navmesh patch that I have no intention of incorporating because it wipes out a ton of work I did on the road pathing to make it work properly, plus your patch adds junk navmesh data to the roofs of two buildings that absolutely have no need for that.

When I have a bit of time, I'll add an explainer for the road, too. After all, the road was the original source of detecting problems. It does not work properly.

On the one building that I'd touched, the original navmesh was under the building. I've 'z' raised it to the roof. The roof is next to the ground at the back, so this makes it possible for NPCs to run up the roof. I'd thought it rather clever. But the main reason for cleverness is to prevent the loss of triangles and vertices, so that border triangles aren't renumbered. That is needed, although there are less clever ways to accomplish the same thing.

What other building?

I'm sad that you are not willing to take my well-documented patch. I'll make it available for TC+CRF users instead.

 

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On 7/17/2019 at 11:55 PM, Arthmoor said:

I don't need to be "reeducated" on how to do navmeshes. I know full well what goes into doing them correctly and how to read the CK for any anomalies, errors, etc. There are none to be found and I know full well how to properly test them with NPC followers. No issues have come up at all. The Frost River guards are fine with it. The local residents are fine with it. All of the vanilla followers are fine with it.

The example shows a specific border crossing error in CRF 3.1.4, and documents others. Is the tutorial insufficiently clear?

I'm surprised that you are unable to reproduce. One vanilla follower who isn't working is Faendal (the only one I've tested). If I learn how to make a short 30 second game video (seems to be a new Win10 feature), would that help?

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I seriously doubt it will make any difference since the guards can use the road properly for their patrols, Serana and the female DB Initiate have no issues with following me along it as I go, and the other NPCs who occasionally access it don't display any strange behavior. And none the random encounter ones that occasionally pop-up nearby to walk somewhere have any issues navigating through the entire area.

Keep in mind that I do not run Touring Carriages so if that's necessary to see the issue then I'll simply repeat that it's not my problem your mod is generating broken results when used alongside CRF.

Your "well-documented patch" reverts far too much legitimate work and adds a bunch of unnecessary elements to the area which is why it's been rejected. Releasing that as a patch to both mods will be you breaking things intentionally in everyone's games with no valid reason for doing so. You should know that's something I take an extremely dim view of advocating for on this forum.

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Version 3.1.5

Spectral Arrow was not set to benefit from the Apprentice Conjuration perk.
Fixed a typo in Gallus' Journal. (Bug #26606)
Fixed the positioning of the smelter in Frost River. (Bug #26441)
The door marker for Hoarfrost Grotto was too close to the return bubble which could cause the player to be immediately bounced back out of the dungeon.
The Supply Line quest was not starting due to an old location setting being checked instead of the current one for Frost River.

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On 7/24/2019 at 8:12 PM, Arthmoor said:

@DayDreamer Out of curiosity, what version of SSE is your game currently sitting at?

Product version 1.5.80.0

As I've amply documented, the error is in your navmeshes (plural) at the border with POITundra22 and its adjacent cells on that corner. TC does not alter POITundra22 navmesh. You should not need to run TC to see the NPC problems.

As to your other comments, most of the other documented errors in that area are in the non-preferred navmesh, so they probably don't affect any NPCs who don't travel in the non-preferred triangles. They are still egregious errors in the border triangle jump (port) tables, readily visible in xEdit.

As to my proposed replacements: I do not break anything in Frost River, intentionally or otherwise. I've observed no problems with guards. Moreover, guards do not cross the boundary into POITundra22, which is the problematic boundary.

There is no reason what-so-ever for you to narrow the roadway preferred navmesh, nor to make so many narrow slices. The game engine simply doesn't handle that well.

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On 7/20/2019 at 2:14 PM, Arthmoor said:

Keep in mind that I do not run Touring Carriages so if that's necessary to see the issue then I'll simply repeat that it's not my problem your mod is generating broken results when used alongside CRF.

I'm disappointed that you don't run TC. After all, it was cut content! Real Carriages was one of the first things posted on the Steamworks site, and Bethesda clearly encouraged us to complete it. You gave good advice back in the day, and we used to coordinate, even agreeing that LOOT should load CRF after TC so that changes to the same places worked well together.

But the point of all the navmesh tutorial that I've done is to explain how important the border triangles match their vanilla jumps, so that  plugins will work nicely together. "Somebody else's problem" handwaving won't fix it. Each is independent.

In the TC case, I'm not modifying the adjacent navmesh, so the problem is occurring with bad jumps to/from plain vanilla. But any plugin that installs in any adjacent cell will also have problems. It's just the nature of the beast.

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Concept wise I have no real issue with TC, it's the execution. I know you've done all you can to make it behave as well as it can, but for me that was never enough. Too many issues in too many places where the game would just up and CTD while trying to ride from one point to another. It resulted in my decision to just not use it and my games were much more stable as a result. Nothing personal, Skyrim is just a harsh master.

With regard to this navmesh business, I seriously wonder if you're testing the same navmeshes I am because you are citing problems you're seeing in more than one place but demonstrating none of it. Then when I go and I drag followers around and we shadow guards etc, nothing breaks. What precisely should I be taking away from this when I cannot reproduce any of the bugs you say exist?

The reason I asked which version of SSE you have (and by extension, which version of its CK you have) is because I HAD discovered other issues with navmeshes in several of my villages where things were indeed broken but I can guarantee that they were not prior to the release of the 1.5.73 versions of both. Borders with randomly severed links in cells where I control all 4 borders with no vanilla ones touching them, yet they're still fucked up (or were, until I fixed them all). It's led me to the conclusion that Bethesda has altered navmesh coding and said nothing about it. A couple of other mod authors have since confirmed they too have found broken navmesh where previously they had working navmesh. CRF itself had no such issues, which is what's weird about this. Older mods were where I was finding the most issues, yet CRF is older than most of those, and Open Cities is the oldest one I have and it too was unaffected. It makes little sense, but there it is. Most of the new stuff I've done since the end of 2018 was also unaffected.

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On 8/6/2019 at 8:02 PM, Arthmoor said:

Concept wise I have no real issue with TC, it's the execution. I know you've done all you can to make it behave as well as it can, but for me that was never enough. Too many issues in too many places where the game would just up and CTD while trying to ride from one point to another. It resulted in my decision to just not use it and my games were much more stable as a result. Nothing personal, Skyrim is just a harsh master.

To the best of my knowledge, there have never been CTD issues. You may be thinking of Solar's Scenic Carriages. Great ideas, but didn't quite work.

Except when the Archive and then CK2 have made bad archives (that it now automatically pushes to Bethesda.net). I've long ago learned to check the archive with BSAopt (or other BSA tools). In any case, those have been quickly reported and fixed.

Actually, running TC was able to find issues all over Skyrim, especially navmeshing, much of which have made it into US*P. Kinda like having an automated QA, because it loads so many cells in passing. If you know of any issues, please report them.

It really stresses the graphics, too. There are game engine issues, where it doesn't load stuff or unloads stuff as it runs out of memory. But those same issues arise in normal extended game play, a reason that I'd changed original scripts from OnLoad to OnCellAttach with Wait3D as needed. Again, kinda like automated QA.

But never CTD. Not on my gtx570 nor gtx1080.

On 8/6/2019 at 8:02 PM, Arthmoor said:

With regard to this navmesh business, I seriously wonder if you're testing the same navmeshes I am because you are citing problems you're seeing in more than one place but demonstrating none of it. Then when I go and I drag followers around and we shadow guards etc, nothing breaks. What precisely should I be taking away from this when I cannot reproduce any of the bugs you say exist?

The reason I asked which version of SSE you have (and by extension, which version of its CK you have) is because I HAD discovered other issues with navmeshes in several of my villages where things were indeed broken but I can guarantee that they were not prior to the release of the 1.5.73 versions of both. Borders with randomly severed links in cells where I control all 4 borders with no vanilla ones touching them, yet they're still fucked up (or were, until I fixed them all). It's led me to the conclusion that Bethesda has altered navmesh coding and said nothing about it. A couple of other mod authors have since confirmed they too have found broken navmesh where previously they had working navmesh. CRF itself had no such issues, which is what's weird about this. Older mods were where I was finding the most issues, yet CRF is older than most of those, and Open Cities is the oldest one I have and it too was unaffected. It makes little sense, but there it is. Most of the new stuff I've done since the end of 2018 was also unaffected.

I'm sorry that you cannot reproduce. The only navmeshes I'm using are those in the releases. I've shown you very specific triangles and edge links, with pictures.

I see that your most recent version has made changes. Unlike the old pre-SE days (where I manually saved every version), Vortex didn't save the previous versions to make a comparison. I'll take a look.

But that problem with CK severed links is news to me! Did I miss a Knowledge Base topic? Fortunately I run xEdit Skyrim Edge Link scripts on my own work too. Thanks for giving a heads-up. We really need a CK2 bugs topic. And an Open Source CK that we could fix.

 

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No, you haven't missed a knowledge base topic since I haven't taken the time to write one up yet. It was a pain in the ass though because there was a big wave of village updates from myself and Tarshana at the very least because of it. I would not be surprised if some of the large quest mods have issues as well but they'd be much harder to find with as many edits as those have.

I also didn't use the fix script to deal with it. The bugs showed up plain as day with CK 1.5.73 (which is still current) and were verifiable by trying to cross those areas with followers. They'd go around the broken segments as expected. Most of the time refinalizing things was enough, but there were some that exhibited the triangle issues you've reported before even though I know for a fact they had no such issues prior to the last CK update. They probably discovered some obscure issue and fixed it for the internal CK builds and it eventually made its way public long after they forgot about it. While annoying, it is at least showing the Creation Club has benefits outside of new DLCs.

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