Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

[RabidGears]

I only mentioned that CK is limited, no need for raging caps and jumping on people. I said that mod makers need full toolset (CK is just a single application out of probably a dozen they use to create a game) and not rely on reverse engineering and 3rd party tools if Bethesda is going to make money on mods. It's fine for free modding, but paid modding with game studio taking a huge cut is a whole different market and rules.

 

I only used the caps for emphasis. I'm sorry if it came off as raging at you, that certainly wasn't my intention. =/

 

I suppose if you look at their cut as a license fee for using the tools then it would make sense releasing the more complete tool set. Instead of an using upfront license fee model like 3DSMax etc they would take a commission on mod sales.

[Arthmoor]

I guess you know from what part of the body shit comes, do you not?

From the fingers of angry keyboard warriors, obviously.

 

I only used the caps for emphasis. I'm sorry if it came off as raging at you, that certainly wasn't my intention. =/

 

I suppose if you look at their cut as a license fee for using the tools then it would make sense releasing the more complete tool set. Instead of an using upfront license fee model like 3DSMax etc they would take a commission on mod sales.

We don't know any of the details of what Valve or Bethesda do with their cuts. It could well be that Bethesda's cut went to setting up royalties with the various license holders for the technology to allow us to sell mods to start with.

 

For the last 10 years or so the assumption has always been that Beth doesn't let people sell mods because they don't want to let us. We now know that to be false. so the only logical conclusion available is that they had certain licensing issues in the background that prevented it. If their cut goes to paying those license holders off in the form of royalties then it makes a lot more sense and suddenly that 45% of a $3.49 mod doesn't seem so bad.

 

Imagine if the modders got 75% like people wanted but none of this legal BS had been taken care of prior to getting that money?

[lmstearn]

The whole fixture is just plain weird.

All the stakeholders, licence holders, legal consultants and the rest should all be paid off at the time the game is distributed. This is something Bethesda will want to straighten out in the terms and conditions when the deals are made.

The modders work on the finished product as they always have done. End of story.

Put it this way, if I buy a car and opt to give it a pink polka dot duco, why would I need to pay extra licence fees to the dealer for that privilege?

[Arthmoor]

Car analogies don't really work for software. Software often has ongoing royalties attached due to copyright licensing. Things don't just end when the game hits launch day.

[VaultDuke]

The propper car analogy would be, if suddenly you got a free engine upgrade for it, but expected that the gasoline consumption stayed the same. The license deals bethesda made more than 4 years ago did not include the right for modder to make money, nor was that what we payed for when we bought the game. So no, they were not payed when the game sold. The difference is: a car is an object you buy, a software is something you buy a license for. Like getting a driverse license. It can be revoked, if your health drops, it expires or legislations change (at least in the eu).

[lmstearn]

Car analogies don't really work for software. Software often has ongoing royalties attached due to copyright licensing. Things don't just end when the game hits launch day.

Well yes, and all of us just do nothing about it or a helpless in that regard. The model is just plain sick. But then commercial law is such a festering pit of monstrosities, yer wonder why most of us never ventured in.

I believe that if one pays for any product outright, one should be able to dispose of it as they wish. Copyright law should come in when one attempts to resell the original in unmodified form. Declared modifications should be considered on a separate basis.

 

The propper car analogy would be, if suddenly you got a free engine upgrade for it, but expected that the gasoline consumption stayed the same. The license deals bethesda made more than 4 years ago did not include the right for modder to make money, nor was that what we payed for when we bought the game. So no, they were not payed when the game sold. The difference is: a car is an object you buy, a software is something you buy a license for. Like getting a driverse license. It can be revoked, if your health drops, it expires or legislations change (at least in the eu).

The software industry is full of objects.

But that's why many makers went along the lease model. But did they price themselves out? Who's going to pay any more than $1 a month to lease a game anyway?

Lets hope that Bethesda, maybe someone else, will dodge these traps in the negotiation phase before releasing software in the future.

[Deathbydestiny]

I never thought of all this. First of all if this is the case then doing it after 3 and half years is not a very smart thing and should have been planned in the beginning from the get go. Second, where does mods in general stand with these issues? Making them free as well would be a problem right?

[lmstearn]

Yeah, it's all wrapped up in definitions anyway. That's what the law is.
Another angle for Beth to consider is whether the official updates invoke royalties. If, in a future sign up agreement a modder is to be considered a legal partner of Bethsoft, then can his submitted modifications now be deemed to be part of an official amendment, or enhancement to the game?
The most obvious examples would be the Unofficial patches and Skyui.

[Arthmoor]

I believe this WAS something they've been planning for the 3.5 years or so. If you think "Valve Time" is slow, you should try waiting for something to happen in the legal world. It likely took them this long to negotiate the details with all of the involved parties so they could shield us from potential liabilities. I just wish the angry mob had given people time to explain these possibilities to them.

[Zanderat]

I've said this on the Bethesda forum and I will say it here. To characterize all those who are/were against paid mods as the "angry mob" is just plain wrong. There are plenty of valid concerns with paid mods. Just Because someone disagrees with you doesn't make their point any less valid. Note that I am talking about the Bethesda forums. I could care less about Reddit, et al.

[Zanderat]

double post

[Crashpilot]

I've said this on the Bethesda forum and I will say it here. To characterize all those who are/were against paid mods as the "angry mob" is just plain wrong. There are plenty of valid concerns with paid mods. Just Because someone disagrees with you doesn't make their point any less valid. Note that I am talking about the Bethesda forums. I could care less about Reddit, et al.

 

Arthmoor did not characterize all those who voiced their oposition to paid MODs as "angry mob", a lot of them however behaved like one.

[Deathbydestiny]

I believe this WAS something they've been planning for the 3.5 years or so. If you think "Valve Time" is slow, you should try waiting for something to happen in the legal world. It likely took them this long to negotiate the details with all of the involved parties so they could shield us from potential liabilities. I just wish the angry mob had given people time to explain these possibilities to them.

 

If that were true, could they not have smoothed it out during development of the game instead after it was released? Seems like a stretch to me.

[Arthmoor]

No, because we've been told several times that the Workshop%2

[Arthmoor]

wtf... forum ate half my message...

[Zanderat]

wtf... f

[Zanderat]

^^^ huh?

[Deathbydestiny]

Something got borked? Sorry

[Arthmoor]

Yes. Something got borked alright. Not sure what either. Anyway, let's try again!

 

The Workshop was something Beth didn't even get approached about until just before launch. It's why the CK was initially delayed. So if they were also approached at the same time to set up mods that could be paid for, those negotiations wouldn't have started until 2012 at the earliest.

[Deathbydestiny]

Ahh ok, I was not familiar with the history of that. So that makes sense then I suppose. Bethesda really needs to migrate away from all this middleware, it seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

[Arthmoor]

Yes, I'd agree. Or at least partner with GoG to distribute the games if they're serious about being anti-DRM.

 

As for mods, I don't see why they couldn't do that via their own storefront unless they don't think they have the capacity to serve the traffic.

[Zanderat]

Still on the fence about paid mods. But ya, anything is better than STEAM, judging about how they have handled things so far. GOG with its new Galaxy client would be ideal.

[garthand]

For me at least, this whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way, and I feel there was a lot of dishonesty going around that just made it hard to swallow. Throw in the gamers' vitriol and we had a really disgusting mix.

 

I mean, ok, first everyone loses their mind after this is announced and starts a witch hunt. Sad, but predictable.

 

Then, Gaben tries to soothe things over on Reddit, but makes some pretty specious claims, like angry emails costing Valve miillions of dollars, (in real money or potential earnings?)

 

Then, Bethesda makes their blog post, which IMO should have been put out a week or two before launch. Why both parties felt the need to keep everything quiet until release is pretty baffling, unless there were some last minute legal hurdles. Even if that was the case, the messaging was botched and just dumped fuel on the fire.

 

To me, the most egregious bit of Beth's post was the self-congratulating about being "anti-DRM" while being Steam exclusive. They noted that there was no DRM on Skyrim's DLCs. Er, ok? Seems a bit off point to me. I mean, what would DRM on the DLCs look like anyway? An always online requirement? Some kind of checksum that would get in the way of cleaning the plugins? The main game is already DRM'd so I'm not sure I got the idea.

 

Seemingly minutes later, Valve pulled the plug, and Beth updated their own blog post to awkwardly reflect that.

 

So my list of grievances with how this shook out:

 

1. The community's reaction was pretty despicable
2. Gaben's unsubstantiated million dollar email damaged Valve's credibility
3. Bethesda's anti-DRM charade damaged their credibility
4. Valve's decision to pull the plug, and Bethesda's seeming surprise at this decision, reflects poorly on both companies.
5. When Valve pulled out, it did so without telling anyone beforehand, not the modders, and not Bethesda. This really damages their standing in my eyes. You need to treat your partners with respect.
6. My biggest issue: The combined Valve + Bethesda cut at 75% is egregious. They claim the percentage is similar or more generous than many other royalty arrangements, but when you consider that they're not offering the kind of marketing or IP protection common to those setups, it becomes an issue. When I write a book, I'll get a 12-15% cut on sales. My publisher will market my book, promote it to both consumers and distributors, and will sue anyone else who tries to publish it. Valve and Bethesda will not market your mod, they will leave IP enforcement to the same "community" that started /r/modpiracy, and they will only allow it to be distributed directly through their own channel. That's simply not worth an extra 10-12% royalty in your pocket when all Valve is providing is the same kind of hosting you could get from Google Drive or Dropbox for free, and you're the one trying to make sure your mod doesn't get stolen, and, unlike a publisher, Valve and Bethesda still get paid from a stolen mod sold on the Workshop.

[Elgar]

One article by fireundubh and one interview of him on that matter, very interesting :

 

Article published during the storm.

 

Interview published today.

[keithinhanoi]

Yes. Something got borked alright. Not sure what either. Anyway, let's try again!

 

The Workshop was something Beth didn't even get approached about until just before launch. It's why the CK was initially delayed. So if they were also approached at the same time to set up mods that could be paid for, those negotiations wouldn't have started until 2012 at the earliest.

 

Yes, according to Beth, they did start working it in 2012 - well, actually, they give the credit to Valve. I suggest re-reading the BethBlog post again, but here's the relevant bits (emphasis added by me):

 

In our early discussions regarding Workshop with Valve, they presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had. They asked if we would consider doing the same.

 

This was in 2012 and we had many questions, but only one demand. It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do. We’re even careful about highlighting a modder on this blog for that very reason.

 

Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy. They are not forcing us, or any other game, to do it. They are opening a powerful new choice for everyone.

 

 

So, it was "Valve time". When I read this I thought so much worse of their PR / communications abilities. If true, then why did they spend all that time keeping it to themselves and then rush through the process of contacting anyone in the modding community, and telling those few they did contact to keep it a "secret"?

 

I've said it elsewhere a number of times - this was a case of terribly handled change management. They totally forgot to include one of the key stakeholders - the modding community - in the communication / consult before the change.