VaultDuke Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Citation needed.Let's just agree, that the community was rather split about the payed workshop, and that on the opposing side there was a very angry and vocal minority, that made this whole experiment very unpleasant. I doubt anyone of us can cite any reliable data nowadays, on what the actual (silent) split was.Personally i was switching sides with each argument i read, before settling for one just moments before the whole thing got pulled. But i suspect that makes me part of the only actual minority in this: The undecided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheson Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I would argue that the majority was angry and vocal and that the minority was calm and well spoken. I also think as long as we can not decide what the complete group of people actually is, I would say these type of statements are just hollow phrases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaultDuke Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Lol, ok yeah. Works for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Considering I've seen it cited that Skyrim has ~4 million PC users and only a few hundred actual community members got riled up, yes, it's a VERY vocal minority who got this shot down. Even if we go by the numbers DarkOne and Brumbek mentioned in their conversation with Total Biscuit, it was about 130K out of a user base over 1.5 million. That's not a majority by ay definition. Significant minority, yes, but that's all. Most of the threads in all the places I found them had a small core of the same people posting over and over again rehashing the same arguments over and over again. I don't think you can gauge this by forum threads alone. BlackPete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheson Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I think it is lack of key data combined with wishful thinking and assumptions that create situations like this. I believe mixing numbers with no meaning doesn't explain anything and will just set us all up to repeat the mistakes all over again. If a large enough portion of Steam Workshop users voice their opinion Valve has to listen. They are the customers with the money. It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, for or against something. I also believe Valve has a very thick skin regarding user backslash. I know from my own experiences that riding these things out is usually working out, e.g. there is no such thing as bad publicity. Valve pulling the emergency break was a desperate move of the highest order. Assuming it was a minority that made them do it is not helping the discussion at all IMHO. Valve has much more will power than that. At least they used to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbydestiny Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Chesko made a recent statement on the Frostfall comments. He is returning to modding it looks like. The community seems to be repairing itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 Chesko made a recent statement on the Frostfall comments. He is returning to modding it looks like. The community seems to be repairing itself. That's great. Yeah, so it seems at least going back to normal activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbydestiny Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Here is a statement from Shezrie. Not as positive as Chesko's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgar Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Shezrie's post is very interesting and I agree to everything he or she wrote. Especially this point : "The fact that Youtubers, websites and many others are making money off mods". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheson Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Creations are owned by the creator and it is their decision how to offer them. That is a fact. We do not need to discuss this over and over again. There may be a point to be made about Youtubers if the videos were pay per view on Steam and the creator gets only 25%. If you do not want a youtuber "making money of your mods" don't give him permission. Talk to Nintendo for ideas. I don't get why are we still discussing the rude users that we all should simply ignore to begin with? Why not start discussing about the potential customers? The revolt was against the horrendous execution and the system behind it. You can not force people to use a system they don't want. No amount of blame game and god or bad analogies will change that. Talk to the music industry for ideas. The mod with the highest subscription number on Steam Workshop I could find is Run For Your Lives with 182k subscribers. http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ shows close to 60k Skyrim players peek per day. Those are the numbers that could be used in a meaningful discussion to really understand what happened and what the "minorities" and "majorities" are moving forward. We now have the chance to work on much better system with the blessing of Bethesda and get heard, because we can use the bloody nose from Valve and Bethesda as leverage. We are going to miss this opportunity if we continue the blame game, making bad analogies and can not correctly analyze what actually happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgar Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 The revolt was against the horrendous execution and the system behind it. I respectfully disagree. I don't see how "horrendous" was the execution (modders would have not accepted to participate in the first place if it was so "horrendous"). It's just that many people were used to have mods for free and they don't want to pay. The revolt was against the "paywall". Even popular apps which cost only a few cents on the Android or the Apple store are pirated... Of course the system could be tweaked, like the revenue cuts. The petition asked for a donation button but we all know that it wouldn't be used very often... Not even 1 of 10 people endorse mods or say thank you, so donations ?... I was myself shocked when these paid mods appeared and I expressed it. But one day later, after reading posts by the involved modders and others, I changed my mind. But you're right, we can discuss this endlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt3rn1ty Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 So thats what happened to Shezrie, first sign I saw something going wrong was before the pay wall went public, Shezrie took Old Hroldan off Nexus ( I did not know why, and I had some reduced textures on my Vanilla Reduced Textures for it ), I knew Old Hroldan 2 was in the works so took my old files down too ( because there was no mod to link to anymore .. and with the assumption that they would probably need done from scratch anyway, and I wanted to redo them in Photoshop when v2 appeared ) After the pay wall surprised us all and the crap ensued, I did at one point think Shezrie would most likely be disgusted with this whole thing, but did not know to what extent she had been attacked Anyway @ Shezrie, if you read this forum - Take Good care, your excellent mods and character on the forums will be greatly missed, but your decisions are very understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilav Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I like how Bethesda constantly mention that they dedicated a lot of time and resources making development tools available for public, but at the same time majority of paid mods were made using 3rd party tools (skse, new models, animations - can't be done with CK only) totally without any support from Bethesda, by brute force reverse engineering. And after that they were taking 40%? That is what I found most awkward in this whole paid mods system. Yeah I know, "service providers", but that sounds like a poor excuse to me. They should really step up with their development tools and relese the full toolset no matter how much it would cost them before claiming money from mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbydestiny Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Ya that kind of is a joke, we all know how much dedicated time and resources they spend on testing their games The bottom line is the industry is just broken. I'm certain we can all agree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbydestiny Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Looks like Isoku intends to release the new versions of his mods on Nexus soon. Whether that means he will continue modding or not is unknown still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidGears Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I like how Bethesda constantly mention that they dedicated a lot of time and resources making development tools available for public, but at the same time majority of paid mods were made using 3rd party tools (skse, new models, animations - can't be done with CK only) totally without any support from Bethesda, by brute force reverse engineering. And after that they were taking 40%? That is what I found most awkward in this whole paid mods system. Yeah I know, "service providers", but that sounds like a poor excuse to me. They should really step up with their development tools and relese the full toolset no matter how much it would cost them before claiming money from mods. How much MORE time would it take if there was no CK? How many things would be IMPOSSIBLE if there was no CK? I'm sticking up for Bethesda on this one. IMHO the CK is an excellent modding tool. It's well designed for what it's supposed to do. Whenever I've tried modding other games I usually give up after giving myself an aneurysm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbydestiny Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Maybe that is true, but one thing needs to be considered when someone says this. The CK and any modding tool before it from Bethesda was as buggy as the games that were built with them. It makes me wonder how they even developed triple A game with that steaming pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Gonna package up my own mod and get it uploaded here in a bit. I expect everyone here to make me rich off of it As far as what the CK can and can't do, that's also an issue that was raised. There are apparently licensing issues involved with that that the Havok guys are unwilling to budge on. Which is hardly surprising I guess. It sucks, but it's not surprising. The CK that Beth uses also has internal capability to edit nif files directly. Which would be a huge thing to have, but again, licensing issues. Gamebryo are known to be assholes about that stuff. It may also not be entirely clear just who has the rights to Gamebryo these days either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaultDuke Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Licencing issues? You mean as in: Actually do something with that publisher split they wanted to get from the workshop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Yes, more or less. You know, contracts that likely can't be renegotiated after these many years? I'm pretty sure Bethesda's cut of things was mainly to keep the hounds at bay in general and keep those licensees from suing us for making mods for the game and charging money for it. I'd wager this stuff is a lot more complicated behind the scenes than any of us realizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaultDuke Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Uh, i was more thinking they should have made a deal with the licence holders to split the share in order to allow distribution of the full CK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilav Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 How much MORE time would it take if there was no CK? How many things would be IMPOSSIBLE if there was no CK? I only mentioned that CK is limited, no need for raging caps and jumping on people. I said that mod makers need full toolset (CK is just a single application out of probably a dozen they use to create a game) and not rely on reverse engineering and 3rd party tools if Bethesda is going to make money on mods. It's fine for free modding, but paid modding with game studio taking a huge cut is a whole different market and rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I don't think there's a way to selectively make sure those people making pay mods get the better CK though. Not without modders making pay mods perhaps paying for the "premium edition" of the CK or something. Which, given the angry mob mentality, is likely to provoke another shitstorm. Bethesda can't win for trying it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaultDuke Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 well, they would have needed to convince the licence holders, that this model is a win for everyone. let them have the tools for free, and profit off of the few mods that are released on the payed workshop. Of course, this would have been easier with reliable data, which of course would have required for the payed workshop to survive longer than 4 days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashpilot Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 is likely to provoke another shitstorm. Bethesda can't win for trying it seems. I guess you know from what part of the body shit comes, do you not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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