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[RELz] LOOT - Load Order Optimisation Tool

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On 1/26/2019 at 5:04 AM, cdcooley said:

Thanks, that at least solves the mystery. It xExit requires that specific configuration then I wish whoever manages the Loot master list would hold off on dirty/clean entries using the new version because it's leading to a lot of confusion right now. Or at the very least document that that configuration setting in the Loot report.

image.thumb.png.65056020bc816ff347aa7f89169810df.png

Which links to the xEdit docs here

image.thumb.png.c09a3bbcaaa83c200c98fff56e646423.png

@cdcooley That's the information being presented, config steps are linked, so it's quite possible that users assume they know what is said in the link and don't follow it.

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I'm one who didn't read it because the message says that's the guide for "quick auto clean" and I already know about cleaning and I didn't see a need for "automated" cleaning. More importantly none of that mentions you need a specific setting if you aren't using the fancy new auto-cleaning. The Loot message should be clear that you must use the autoclean or mention the setting needed if you're cleaning the old way.

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9 hours ago, cdcooley said:

I'm one who didn't read it because the message says that's the guide for "quick auto clean" and I already know about cleaning and I didn't see a need for "automated" cleaning. More importantly none of that mentions you need a specific setting if you aren't using the fancy new auto-cleaning. The Loot message should be clear that you must use the autoclean or mention the setting needed if you're cleaning the old way.

xEdit has always detected more ITMs as it has been developed, there was always going to be some confusion with such a big difference between official releases. The next version of xEdit will use the auto clean by default so it shouldn't be an issue.

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On 1/30/2019 at 5:15 AM, cptmcsplody said:

xEdit has always detected more ITMs as it has been developed, there was always going to be some confusion with such a big difference between official releases. The next version of xEdit will use the auto clean by default so it shouldn't be an issue.

My point is that we aren't on the "next version of xEdit" yet and the decision to add master list entries that rely on a specific xEdit configuration without fully documenting that fact really is an additional source of confusion beyond the standard predictable level. But yes, the situation will resolve itself eventually.

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14 hours ago, cdcooley said:

My point is that we aren't on the "next version of xEdit" yet and the decision to add master list entries that rely on a specific xEdit configuration without fully documenting that fact really is an additional source of confusion beyond the standard predictable level. But yes, the situation will resolve itself eventually.

That's fine, but It's not up to LOOT to inform users of how to configure xEdit or how the xEdit documentation is handled. LOOT has only ever provided reports generated by the latest version of xEdit, and a link to a cleaning guide if the mod requires cleaning.

 

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I am in the middle of modding SSE yet again, because last time I had some issues, as well as deleting all my archived mods, by accident. Anyway, I have an issue with Loot. I have, installed, MorrowLoot Ultimate and Unique Uniques. And I have the patches. The problem is that Loot doesn't recognize the patch, though. Would it be possible to fix loot to recognize the patch, please?

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On 2/5/2019 at 4:35 AM, SirTwist said:

I am in the middle of modding SSE yet again, because last time I had some issues, as well as deleting all my archived mods, by accident. Anyway, I have an issue with Loot. I have, installed, MorrowLoot Ultimate and Unique Uniques. And I have the patches. The problem is that Loot doesn't recognize the patch, though. Would it be possible to fix loot to recognize the patch, please?

If you supply the filenames of the plugins involved, probably.

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83Willows_101BUGS_V4_HighRes.esp 4.1 D9CA4A2C
When using the Requiem patch for 83Willows 101Bugs, it's recommended that you deactivate or delete this plugin, but keep the assets (e.g. meshes, textures) installed with this mod as they're still required by the Requiem patch for 83Willows 101Bugs.

LOOT Version 0.14.2 (build 38ee4c2c)

Legacy Skyrim

I'm not running Requiem.

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LOOT v0.14.3 released!

Thanks to everyone who reported and helped me track down the bugs that this release fixes!

9 hours ago, Elaura said:

83Willows_101BUGS_V4_HighRes.esp 4.1 D9CA4A2C
When using the Requiem patch for 83Willows 101Bugs, it's recommended that you deactivate or delete this plugin, but keep the assets (e.g. meshes, textures) installed with this mod as they're still required by the Requiem patch for 83Willows 101Bugs.

LOOT Version 0.14.2 (build 38ee4c2c)

Legacy Skyrim

I'm not running Requiem.

That's due to a bug that's fixed in the new version of LOOT.

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7 hours ago, Elaura said:

Thank you! Downloading now.

Second that! :)

Long time no see.  How goes it? :wave:

 

@WrinklyNinjaI need to ask you about using LOOT for Oblivion instead of BOSS.  Do you still recommend people to use BOSS for Oblivon, despite the fact that BOSS is old and no longer maintained by anyone, not I am aware of?

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On 2/13/2019 at 6:25 PM, Leonardo said:

Second that! :)

Long time no see.  How goes it? :wave:

 

@WrinklyNinjaI need to ask you about using LOOT for Oblivion instead of BOSS.  Do you still recommend people to use BOSS for Oblivon, despite the fact that BOSS is old and no longer maintained by anyone, not I am aware of?

Well, nobody's really been maintaining the LOOT masterlist for Oblivion either, I think that BOSS will probably still give better results, at least for complex setups like FCOM. It would be great if LOOT were brought up to the same level, but that hasn't happened yet...

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:15 AM, WrinklyNinja said:

Well, nobody's really been maintaining the LOOT masterlist for Oblivion either, I think that BOSS will probably still give better results, at least for complex setups like FCOM.

I see.  I still have BOSS, probably not the latest stable.  But that's better than nothing I suppose.

On 2/17/2019 at 9:15 AM, WrinklyNinja said:

It would be great if LOOT were brought up to the same level, but that hasn't happened yet...

Agreed.  You're right because I don't see the reason why anyone need to use BOSS for a heavily modded Oblivion instead of using LOOT for all moddable TES games.  Although, I think using LOOT for Morrowind would be beneficial though.

I wonder what's required to do about maintaining a master list for LOOT.  Is that similiar to what people have done for BOSS in the past by posting links to the mod in question?

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5 hours ago, Leonardo said:

I see.  I still have BOSS, probably not the latest stable.  But that's better than nothing I suppose.

Agreed.  You're right because I don't see the reason why anyone need to use BOSS for a heavily modded Oblivion instead of using LOOT for all moddable TES games.  Although, I think using LOOT for Morrowind would be beneficial though.

I wonder what's required to do about maintaining a master list for LOOT.  Is that similiar to what people have done for BOSS in the past by posting links to the mod in question?

Regarding Morrowind, the last time I looked people seemed generally happy with mlox, and I didn't want to "split the ecosystem".

The hard part about maintaining the Oblivion masterlist would be making all of BOSS's implicit load order rules explicit (e.g. does B load after A in the BOSS masterlist because it needs to, or just because that's where it was put?). Though now that LOOT has groups, I suppose you could try bunging everything in a load of groups to match the BOSS masterlist and go from there. That's a very heavy-handed approach though.

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1 hour ago, WrinklyNinja said:

Regarding Morrowind, the last time I looked people seemed generally happy with mlox, and I didn't want to "split the ecosystem".

Perhaps it's time to "split the ecosystem" and one reason for doing that has to do with Sharlikran's WMSA fork, which has a lot of new things.  For example, the original the hidden Installers folder is no longer present in Sharlikran's WMSA.

Another important thing is OpenMW and that will someday in the future be more common than it's today once the OpenMW team has released a stable version.  Not to mention another WMSA fork.

2 hours ago, WrinklyNinja said:

The hard part about maintaining the Oblivion masterlist would be making all of BOSS's implicit load order rules explicit (e.g. does B load after A in the BOSS masterlist because it needs to, or just because that's where it was put?). Though now that LOOT has groups, I suppose you could try bunging everything in a load of groups to match the BOSS masterlist and go from there. That's a very heavy-handed approach though.

I think most people at TAL can provide the necessary information that's needed for a master list for Oblivion in LOOT.  There is a thread for maintaining a master list for BOSS on TAL.

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On 2/18/2019 at 9:39 PM, Leonardo said:

Perhaps it's time to "split the ecosystem" and one reason for doing that has to do with Sharlikran's WMSA fork, which has a lot of new things.  For example, the original the hidden Installers folder is no longer present in Sharlikran's WMSA.

Another important thing is OpenMW and that will someday in the future be more common than it's today once the OpenMW team has released a stable version.  Not to mention another WMSA fork.

I think most people at TAL can provide the necessary information that's needed for a master list for Oblivion in LOOT.  There is a thread for maintaining a master list for BOSS on TAL.

What benefit would providing Morrowind support actually give though? mlox provides a certain quality of sorting, and for LOOT's support of Morrowind to be worthwhile, it would have to surpass that, which would involve either converting whatever rulesets mlox uses (if possible) and building on them, or a lot of effort to independently get LOOT to the same place. I'm not against it (I don't think it would take much in the way of code changes), but I don't want to introduce confusion over which tool is "better".

If people want to help maintain LOOT's Oblivion masterlist, I'll accept pull requests and they can file issues in the GitHub repository, but I don't think I have the time or interest to make changes myself.

On 3/14/2019 at 3:32 AM, croc123 said:

I am using LOOT on Skyrim SE.  I get these warnings:

1554546410_Warning1.thumb.jpg.1571fb5b433b64665bf5f9969b6ea76c.jpg

  443963123_warning2.thumb.jpg.83a06f4759386b175bebd0d8b60db04d.jpg

 

In both cases I can't find a patch

 

There's a patch for Provincial Courier Service on the Landscape Fixes For Grass Mods Nexus page, and one for Cutting Room Floor on JK's Skyrim's Nexus page.

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1 hour ago, WrinklyNinja said:

What benefit would providing Morrowind support actually give though? mlox provides a certain quality of sorting, and for LOOT's support of Morrowind to be worthwhile, it would have to surpass that, which would involve either converting whatever rulesets mlox uses (if possible) and building on them, or a lot of effort to independently get LOOT to the same place. I'm not against it (I don't think it would take much in the way of code changes), but I don't want to introduce confusion over which tool is "better".

There are two things I see as beneficial and that's like this.

1.  The majority of the mod users are using LOOT for Skyrim, so why should people need to use mlox just to sort a loadorder in Morrowind when LOOT does that for every TES game

2.  mlox doesn't detect mods that needs to be merged (levelled lists) into the Mashed Lists.esp (only handles the levelled lists), not that I am aware of

Does LOOT detect mods that has levelled lists?

You know, I don't think there will be a "what tool is better than the other" confusion, because most people are using LOOT these days and those people doesn't want be *forced* to use another tool just to sort a loadorder in Morrowind.

I suggest that you start read the WMSA thread from here and that's about mlox, but it might be worthwhile to read the whole thread.

Besides, all moddeable TES games are now on Steam and people are still using Steam and will continue to do that for the next 5-10 years maybe longer than that.

Although, some day in the future people will stop using Steam, perhaps Steam doesn't exist anymore who knows.

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I've got Oblivion and Morrowind because they were bundled with Skyrim by the time that I'd purchased it (early 2012). Not yet played either of them. But LOOT state of the art is so far beyond what we'd had in earlier Skyrim days, I'd appreciate LOOT becoming the ecosystem standard, just as xEdit has become.

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Crossposting from TAL

I've had done little testing and I know LOOT needs to be fixed, otherwise having two or more mods with the same timestamps will not be corrected in LOOT while BOSS is correcting the timestamp for a mod just fine.

I installed Oblivion and 7 DLC, not Mehrunes Razor and Vile Lair, then I sorted the loadorder in LOOT.  The result I got was that there were two DLC with the same timestamp then I sorted the loadorder in BOSS without having two DLC with the same timestamp.

Which means that LOOT does not correct the timestamp for two or more mods properly.  Although, I had manually move one of those mods then the timestamps was unique for the installed DLC I had in my setup.

 

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to use LOOT for both Oblivion (Retail) and Oblivion (Steam) at the same time, because as it is today that's not possible and I think modders would appreciate that when one wants to do some mod testing before releasing a mod.

That would also affect Morrowind, should the Morrowind commuity switch from mlox to LOOT that is.

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On 3/15/2019 at 3:41 PM, Leonardo said:

There are two things I see as beneficial and that's like this.

1.  The majority of the mod users are using LOOT for Skyrim, so why should people need to use mlox just to sort a loadorder in Morrowind when LOOT does that for every TES game

2.  mlox doesn't detect mods that needs to be merged (levelled lists) into the Mashed Lists.esp (only handles the levelled lists), not that I am aware of

Does LOOT detect mods that has levelled lists?

You know, I don't think there will be a "what tool is better than the other" confusion, because most people are using LOOT these days and those people doesn't want be *forced* to use another tool just to sort a loadorder in Morrowind.

I suggest that you start read the WMSA thread from here and that's about mlox, but it might be worthwhile to read the whole thread.

Besides, all moddeable TES games are now on Steam and people are still using Steam and will continue to do that for the next 5-10 years maybe longer than that.

Although, some day in the future people will stop using Steam, perhaps Steam doesn't exist anymore who knows.

LOOT doesn't detect levelled lists or plugins that can be merged.

19 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Crossposting from TAL

I've had done little testing and I know LOOT needs to be fixed, otherwise having two or more mods with the same timestamps will not be corrected in LOOT while BOSS is correcting the timestamp for a mod just fine.

I installed Oblivion and 7 DLC, not Mehrunes Razor and Vile Lair, then I sorted the loadorder in LOOT.  The result I got was that there were two DLC with the same timestamp then I sorted the loadorder in BOSS without having two DLC with the same timestamp.

Which means that LOOT does not correct the timestamp for two or more mods properly.  Although, I had manually move one of those mods then the timestamps was unique for the installed DLC I had in my setup.

 

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to use LOOT for both Oblivion (Retail) and Oblivion (Steam) at the same time, because as it is today that's not possible and I think modders would appreciate that when one wants to do some mod testing before releasing a mod.

That would also affect Morrowind, should the Morrowind commuity switch from mlox to LOOT that is.

I can't replicate this, if I set more than one plugin to have the same timestamp with Wrye Bash then sort and apply a load order in LOOT, it ensures that there are no duplicate timestamps for me.

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2 hours ago, WrinklyNinja said:

LOOT doesn't detect levelled lists or plugins that can be merged.

I didn't know that, so that means that BOSS are superior than LOOT when sorting a loadorder in Oblivion at least for detecting mods that can be merged into the bashed patch.

I assume that LOOT doesn't need the merged feature when sorting a loadorder in Skyrim, because the records in Skyrim are different in comparison to Oblivion aside for both games using the FormID.

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1 minute ago, Leonardo said:

I didn't know that, so that means that BOSS are superior than LOOT when sorting a loadorder in Oblivion at least for detecting mods that can be merged into the bashed patch.

I assume that LOOT doesn't need the merged feature when sorting a loadorder in Skyrim, because the records in Skyrim are different in comparison to Oblivion aside for both games using the FormID.

Unless it's something that's been added since I stopped working on it, BOSS doesn't detect plugins that can be merged into the Bashed Patch either.

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Hmm... Interesting.  If I understand you correctly, both BOSS and LOOT does not detect mods that can be merged.

Well, my little testing doesn't show any signficant differences aside from the mods with identical timestamp, of course mods are sorted slightly different in BOSS vs LOOT.  Other than that nothing that stands out too much.

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