[RELz/WIPz] Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch [UFO4P]

[Gribbleshnibit8]

It's not a bug with the function. I reported this to SmkViper, who created Papyrus, and he forwarded the issue to the inventory team.

That doesn't really sound like someone said "this isn't broken it's intended", which by the way it doesn't sound like it's intended.

 

 

As for not using bugged functions, also fuck you. We might as well not make mods for this game in that case.

 

Or just uh, see my edits, cause you know, it's possible to work around the bugs. I know that F4SE modding isn't really up to par yet, but it might be a viable option to have a plugin made that adds working functions.

 

Oh and no thanks, I've got someone

 

 

So, the solution for you guys is simple: don't use mods you don't agree with.

This will be the solution I take, and I will of course take my opinions out the door with me and spread them all over anytime I see anyone mention mods I know go above and beyond their scope (as I always have in any game) to let them know just what their mods are doing.

 

 

EDIT: Saying rude things and then editing them away is kind of poor sportsmanship. I don't think I will reply to you anymore.

[Roy Batty]

It's not a bug with the function. I reported this to SmkViper, who created Papyrus, and he forwarded the issue to the inventory team.

As for not using bugged functions, also fuck you. We might as well not make mods for this game in that case.

 

It's clear that there are a few of you who think you know what you're talking about but really, really don't.

 

So, the solution for you guys is simple: don't use mods you don't agree with.

 

Whoa whoa why so hostile.

 

If the function isn't bugged then the game isn't either. You just made the point.

[Arthmoor]

If such a "bug" has been reported to bethesda , and it's so simple and easy to fix, if it truly was a bug I think they would have addressed it by now as they did other legitimate bugs that you yourself have pointed out.

So would you like them to cancel out the navmesh fixes that they ignored the community over for years?

The bug where editing NPCs turns them into white people and loses skin features that's existed now for 8 years (and somehow skipped Skyrim)?

They only addressed the navmeshes in Skyrim after a rather concerted effort to explain to them that not fixing it meant it would interfere with their own DLC, not to mention that it would have effectively crippled the mod community they claim to value.

 

They never did fix the NPC skin bugs, and it's a pretty big mystery to all of us how that one managed to skip Skyrim but came back for Fallout 4.

 

Post the numbers then. Make a video, show us this happening and we will not have a problem with it. If it's as big and frequent a problem as you claim, it should be easy to show us in a matter of a day or so.

Sorry, but testing was already done and conclusively proved it. You already have two people who did small scale replication and confirmed that result, even if that's not what they were setting out to do.

 

How... does the value of a game setting determine what is and isn't duplicated?

It doesn't, but you guys described things in terms of the player dropping weapons so I had to clarify that this is only in relation to actors killed in combat.

iDeathDropWeaponChance being set to 100 means those actors will always drop the separated weapon ref when they die. Setting it to 0 means they never will. It's as simple as that.

The duplication is happening because the link between the weapon ref and the corpse ref is not being followed properly in one direction. It is in the other. The duplication was not the subject of the initial report but it is just as valid an issue that stems from the same source.

 

So, are you saying I'm being silly, you'd never do this. But you would consider it if it were a problem later?

I'm saying don't be silly because we'd never do that. Making settlements is clearly an intentional player initiated activity that is meant to place permanent structures into the game world. Well, as permanent as you let them be anyway.

Someone making a mod to remove the settlement limits is on them and they take full responsibility for any consequences that might bring with it. The UFO4P has no reason to change these limits because the limits imposed by Bethesda are what the are, even if it results in shitty settlements like Jamaica Plain. And boy am I not the least bit happy with Jamaica Plain the way they set it up.

 

So what about for people who aren't using auto loot. I don't use auto loot, have never seen this issue. Maybe auto loot is bugged. That would be my first thought.

I am assuming this is a mod? If so that would be on whoever wrote it to handle whatever they're doing properly. Though, given Fireundubh's response to you I'm assuming it's his and that he's making use of the Papyrus functions we were given - which he's already demonstrated can be used to replicate exactly the same bug that's being discussed here.

 

In Fallout 3 and New Vegas the references are linked until the player either takes the weapon or the corpse despawns.

Which is what should be happening now, but isn't because they broke that in Skyrim. The same thing was true in Oblivion. The actor's dropped weapon remained linked to the corpse so when the corpse despawned, so did the weapon.

 

In New Vegas if that weapon was disarmed or has 0 health it becomes an unlinked reference and remains.

And I would agree that this is valid behavior so long as it removes it from the actor's inventory, which I am presuming it does, but that's not the situation being discussed here. This behavior was the same in Oblivion as well, and likely the same in Skyrim too (I rarely bothered with disarm shouts).

 

On a side note, the worst save bloat comes from badly made mods that add creatures or increase spawns via placeatme and then have no script to clean up the corpses. There is even a mod for Fallout 4 right now that does that very thing, even though this has been known since Oblivion not to do. This is also why placeatme (falsely) has a bad reputation for being used, it's merely author incompetence.

Nobody disputes this. Badly mad mods are badly made mods, but it's much much worse when the badly made component is part of the base game and due to something they broke in their engine.

 

The fact remains it doesn't contribute a significant amount to save size in normal play. Unless you are preemptively fixing bugs in badly made mods, in which case I think that is out of scope.

Your singular experience isn't indicative of "normal" play. Who are any of us to decide that? There are loads of people out there who apparently put in about as many hours as you and I did, and they have this problem in spades and had no idea where it was coming from. Outside of you and your brigade here I've had not a single person decry this as a bad decision.

 

Whoa whoa why so hostile.

 

If the function isn't bugged then the game isn't either. You just made the point.

No, he didn't just make your point. He made mine. The fact that SMKViper says the function works as intended but he referred it to the inventory team means even he knows it's not working properly.

 

Sorry about the scrambled quoting, ya'll are responding too fast

[Arthmoor]

This will be the solution I take, and I will of course take my opinions out the door with me and spread them all over anytime I see anyone mention mods I know go above and beyond their scope (as I always have in any game) to let them know just what their mods are doing.

Your opinions won't be factually based though, so all you'll really be doing is spreading disinformation and you can bet that will be challenged where seen.

[fireundubh]

Whoa whoa why so hostile.

I edited out my second "fuck off" so that I don't appear too hostile.

 

If the function isn't bugged then the game isn't either. You just made the point.

No, I did not make your point. Look, we don't have the source code, so none of us can say "this is what's bugged." All we can do is guess based on our own experience and education. If I had to guess, I'd say that the link that ties the two weapon instances together is the thing that is bugged, not the "drop on death" feature or the RemoveAllItems function. Disabling the "drop on death" feature removes the possibility of the two weapons becoming untethered.

 

EDIT: Saying rude things and then editing them away is kind of poor sportsmanship. I don't think I will reply to you anymore.

You seemed flippant, and then you edited in a clarification, which indicated you weren't being flippant. You were a poor sportsman first! My hostile response became inappropriate, so it's gone now.

 

Also, I tend to edit each of my posts a dozen times after posting them. It's a really annoying habit I can't break. I'm Rob Lowe's character in The West Wing.

[Nico coiN]

I'll put my 2 cents here. Roy Batty and JaxFirehart, you are excessively over-reacting.

 

The Unofficial Patch Project is destined to contain many more upcoming fixes as time will come, and some of them will of course be rather 'contested' due to several modders/players that will have different opinions. You just have put your fingers on the first of them. This specific fix works as intended for USLEEP, in which I'm seriously involved since mid 2012, and we rarely had any complaints about it.

 

Arthmoor is the conductor of this project and has to deal with many bug reports. He sometimes has to make choices that are quite unpopular for several people. What should he do ? Avoid fixing some issues to avoid offending a few players that will complain louder than others ? He IS the conductor, and so he has to make choices and implement them. Not all parts of the material I submitted for USLEEP was approved by him. Do you think I was offended ? No. Why ? Because I did it for my own entertainment first (I agree), then shared it here so as a maximum of people can enjoy its benefits. And honestly USLEEP wouldn't be exactly the same today without my work. Do you believe I ever thought about developping my own standalone unofficial patch ? Never. Why ? Because it would have been poor compared to USLEEP and it would have probably never gone further than the french community (yes, I'm french). I'm not contributing here for my own fame or to impose my opinions by strength. Arthmoor disagrees with me about a specific issue ? No problem, it's just a game and I can still make a little standalone mod for my own and personal use whenever I want to keep the benefit of my work. The issue which actually means so much to you is the matter of a single record. You don't know how to deal with it, seriously ? 

 

You both look like implicated and sensible people. The community needs you, and UF4P can become at least as comprehensive/complete as USLEEP thanks to people like you. New Vegas unofficial patch had terrible support because several tiny teams were selfishly working on their own side. Is it what you want ? Or are you ready to moderate your anger and your ego so as all the community can enjoy the most part of your work ? 

 

What I know for sure is that Arthmoor has a long experience of Bethesda games since Oblivion, is modding on all these games and produced some of the most skillfull and famous mods. He has the will and spare time to invest in such huge projects, and always offered proper support for his work. Once again, he's the best conductor I can imagine for UF4P.

 

So, please stop this nonsense, cool down, drink a beer (here's one for you   ), smoke a cigarette and please come back to civilian and constructive discussion.

[Gribbleshnibit8]

Sorry, but testing was already done and conclusively proved it. You already have two people who did small scale replication and confirmed that result, even if that's not what they were setting out to do.

I will accept testing if it's shown. Give me data output, give me numbers and facts, logs and screenshots from the game.

 

I'll give an example. I was curious about some of the functions that were added to NVSE in the past few years. Specifically the replacement to set (the same 'let' that Oblivion got). I wanted to know its performance impact, so I did some tests and got recorded results. I documented and posted publicly here. I'm not asking for much here, just verified, documented, numerical proof. If this does exist, please link it.

 

EDIT: Wow forum copied reply in 3 times o.O 

[Arthmoor]

I will accept testing if it's shown. Give me data output, give me numbers and facts, logs and screenshots from the game.

No, you're moving the goal posts is what you're doing. What you ask is quite obviously unreasonable when you already have two people who confirmed the findings despite not setting out to have done so. What more do you really want here?

I already told you how I did it. If you seek replication, proper science puts that burden on you - but see, you appear to have an agenda bias in play. You don't want to because you already have confirmation it would result in the very thing you don't believe is happening.

I've already made it clear. It's a bug. It's been verified through multiple sources as one. Including people not posting in this thread, but posting elsewhere that they too ran into this and are glad we fixed it.

Ball's in Bethesda's court at this point. If they conclude that this fix is not required, we'll remove it. Not until then though, because the evidence is already overwhelmingly clear even when provided by those out to disprove the claim.

In the meantime, if it seriously bothers you this much, make an esp file. Stick the GSMT record in it. Set it back to 100. Enjoy your bloat.

[Roy Batty]

So would you like them to cancel out the navmesh fixes that they ignored the community over for years?

The bug where editing NPCs turns them into white people and loses skin features that's existed now for 8 years (and somehow skipped Skyrim)?

They only addressed the navmeshes in Skyrim after a rather concerted effort to explain to them that not fixing it meant it would interfere with their own DLC, not to mention that it would have effectively crippled the mod community they claim to value.

 

They never did fix the NPC skin bugs, and it's a pretty big mystery to all of us how that one managed to skip Skyrim but came back for Fallout 4.

 

 

Of course not, I would never suggest that. I was using that as example of things they DID fix. I'm sure you gave them evidence for Skyrim too if that was the case. If they disregarded it then what? I wish it was fixed in Fallout 3 and NV very much.

 

Also what other people do in response to a topic is not my doing. They are free to do as they wish. The whole "subjective" bug fixing thing is a hot topic in many circles.

 

I edited out my second "fuck off" so that I don't appear too hostile.

 

 

Please remain calm sir.

 

And yes, we don't have the source code and even if we did it would be hard to identify something like that as a bug or not, that's a call for the lead developer to make. Which IS the point of my argument, it is just a guess which makes it subjective.

 

How about we press Bethesda on it and get an inarguable answer.

 

The fact that SMKViper passed something on only verifies that it's in question. It's not an answer and shouldn't be cited as factual regardless of what he seems to think.

 

I'm only pressing it to keep things honest, and forgive me if I don't take "we tested it" without any methodology or data as fact. The dismissive response agitated me a tad.

 

As we've discussed before, no ones wants to see divergent patches.

[TrickyVein]

No, you're moving the goal posts is what you're doing. What you ask is quite obviously unreasonable when you already have two people who confirmed the findings despite not setting out to have done so. What more do you really want here?

 

 

As the individual making the claim (it's a bug), the burden of proof lies with you. It's that simple. 

 

If it can't be demonstrated, or is entirely too inconvenient to demonstrate, then it should begin to be obvious why it's not wholly convincing.

[Gribbleshnibit8]

No, you're moving the goal posts is what you're doing. What you ask is quite obviously unreasonable when you already have two people who confirmed the findings despite not setting out to have done so. What more do you really want here?

I already told you how I did it. If you seek replication, proper science puts that burden on you - but see, you appear to have an agenda bias in play. You don't want to because you already have confirmation it would result in the very thing you don't believe is happening.

I've already made it clear. It's a bug. It's been verified through multiple sources as one. Including people not posting in this thread, but posting elsewhere that they too ran into this and are glad we fixed it.

Ball's in Bethesda's court at this point. If they conclude that this fix is not required, we'll remove it. Not until then though, because the evidence is already overwhelmingly clear even when provided by those out to disprove the claim.

In the meantime, if it seriously bothers you this much, make an esp file. Stick the GSMT record in it. Set it back to 100. Enjoy your bloat.

 

"I just invented cold fusion, my cousin and brother saw it. Therefore it happened Nobel Prize pls k thx" is not how the world works. I don't see how me asking you for your data is 'moving the goal posts' as you put it. 

 

The only bias I have is that I don't like mods that add unnecessary changes (and in defense of my bias you do have a history of that). I've actually been attempting to get my FO4 game to start for the past hour, and it crashes loading any saves. No doubt the fact I haven't played in 2 or 3 versions now and my mods are all borked. My internet is slow as molasses on a cold Canadian day, so it will be quite a while for me to verify my game cache and try again

 

I would like to point out that, despite your arguments that it is in fact a bug reported multiple places, your reticence to 1) have recorded any kind of data (as all bug fixes should be) and 2) provide any kind of evidence of your own to show me, kind of puts the ball back in your court to provide said evidence.

[Arthmoor]

How about we press Bethesda on it and get an inarguable answer.

Which is what the thread I posted on their forum is for and why I tagged two people who were responding to the other one I posted.

 

The fact that SMKViper passed something on only verifies that it's in question. It's not an answer and shouldn't be cited as factual regardless of what he seems to think.

Except he is a developer and he gave his input and the fact that he referred it to the team likely responsible for it means he thinks it's enough of an issue for them to look into.

In the absence of anything else, we go with what we know. It's a known bug which was confirmed, even by yourself, and has been a known bug since Skyrim's launch. I really don't know what else you want, because proving it again is unnecessary since you've already done that.

This is what I did, quoted verbatim from the report I posted on their forums:

I've pretty much confirmed this as best as possible by reducing the cell respawn timers down to 1 hour each, putting some raiders inside a cell, and then killing them. Leave the cell, wait an hour on a couch I put outside, then go back inside and repeat. After a very short time the room was filled with extra guns and the raiders were kicking them all over the place trying to get at me.

I deleted the esp used to validate this but I can easily reproduce it if you seriously need that to be done instead of believing your own two eyes.

 

"I just invented cold fusion, my cousin and brother saw it. Therefore it happened Nobel Prize pls k thx" is not how the world works. I don't see how me asking you for your data is 'moving the goal posts' as you put it.

Does nobody actually read what's posted these days?

 

The only bias I have is that I don't like mods that add unnecessary changes (and in defense of my bias you do have a history of that).

Now you're just acting on rumor and disinformation that has no basis.

 

I would like to point out that, despite your arguments that it is in fact a bug reported multiple places, your reticence to 1) have recorded any kind of data (as all bug fixes should be) and 2) provide any kind of evidence of your own to show me, kind of puts the ball back in your court to provide said evidence.

Again, did you read the report post on Bethesda's forum where I explained it to them?

You could easily replicate that yourself if you want a tightly controlled circumstance to try it in, it would seriously not take that long to validate it yourself. Science doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. I performed my experiment already. I gave you the methodology under which it was tested and the results are what they are. It's now up to you to confirm the results (which you will) or accept what's been given.

[Arthmoor]

Yes. I deleted your post. We're not going into tangential bullshit stuff like that that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

What people do in their own mods is entirely up to them and by definition isn't "unnecessary changes" if that's what the mod's author chooses to pursue.

 

If all you're going to do is come here spewing garbage from the maw of SA or 4chan, you will find your welcome worn out and you'll be removed if need be.

[Roy Batty]

Yes it's been verified that it happens by both of us, the question is if it's intended behavior or not, nothing more.

 

I read the post (and even replied to it already over an hour ago).

 

SMKViper seems to think it could be an issue, he passed it on. I'd wait for a response in that case and if one was never given then I would assume it's intended behavior.

 

@Nico

 

I've never questioned that, and I don't have a problem with something being rejected. I've already created an alternate fix for something that was initially rejected because of a very valid reason I hadn't considered. I'm not the ego maniac type, I'm a craftsman by trade and the product is more important than my personal feelings. We are on the same page here.

 

I did over react a slight bit, but I'm not flipping out about it, just discussing. Apologies if I come off that way.

 

I've had the same issues with F3/NV patches as you've described, which is why I chose only to support and use Yuki's patch for those very same reasons. I had a falling out with the author of one of those other patches recently because of how I felt about including cut content into it, which I completely disagree with. That is the reason that perhaps I am a bit too skeptical.

[Gribbleshnibit8]

Yes. I deleted your post. We're not going into tangential bullshit stuff like that that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

What people do in their own mods is entirely up to them and by definition isn't "unnecessary changes" if that's what the mod's author chooses to pursue.

 

If all you're going to do is come here spewing garbage from the maw of SA or 4chan, you will find your welcome worn out and you'll be removed if need be.

Actually, I'm going to remove myself now. You just proved that you don't actually care, and have now flat out stated that UFOP is your baby and you will add to it whatever you please, even if it is out of scope.

 

Good day sir.

 

 

For the record, I've been to 4chan exactly one time and despised myself for it, and I'm not sure why System Admins would be saying things about your mods or why I'd be repeating it.

 

FYI: Out of scope would be a mod that says it adds in an armor, and also changes 7 game settings related to player strength and health. Just kind of a baseline there.

[Arthmoor]

Yes it's been verified that it happens by both of us, the question is if it's intended behavior or not, nothing more.

 

I read the post (and even replied to it already over an hour ago).

 

SMKViper seems to think it could be an issue, he passed it on. I'd wait for a response in that case and if one was never given then I would assume it's intended behavior.

Disagreement over whether it's intentional or not is fine, but that's not what some people are doing.

Thing is, I cannot fathom a valid reason for why allowing an unchecked source of save bloat would be an intended feature of the game, and we already know Bethesda has taken steps to address related issues in both Skyrim and Fallout 4.

In Skyrim, they addressed the issue of fired projectiles (mainly arrows and crossbow bolts) sticking around indefinitely. I don't know who finally reached someone that mattered for that, but it took months, and they patched it. They simply missed fixing the issue entirely is all because weapons dropped by actors killed in combat was never fixed despite them having acknowledged it as a valid issue. Unfortunately I can't link that because it was on the CK Beta forum back in the day and they purged it after that was over.

They also addressed eternal ash piles in a Skyrim update, but missed one particular part of that with preplaced dead actors being reanimated and later becoming ash piles. Thankfully they seem to have fixed ash/goo piles for good this time because the only solution we had for that had to get pulled in Skyrim because it generated Papyrus stack dumps.

 

I've had the same issues with F3/NV patches as you've described, which is why I chose only to support and use Yuki's patch for those very same reasons. I had a falling out with the author of one of those other patches recently because of how I felt about including cut content into it, which I completely disagree with. That is the reason that perhaps I am a bit too skeptical.

I know you addressed this to Nico, but do keep in mind that our project here follows the same philosophy Yuki is with his NV patch. We always have. Sometimes the fixes are more brute force than some people might like, but we can only work with what we have in front of us.

Cut content is not something we will include, ever, UNLESS it's still somehow partially exposed to the player. So far nothing like that has come up for FO4 and we had exactly one instance of that for Skyrim. I don't know if you're familiar with Cutting Room Floor but that's basically how I intended to pursue the restoration of cut content for FO4, assuming someone else doesn't beat me to it of course. I'm still waiting for stuff to settle before getting too deep into any other projects right now.

[fireundubh]

As the individual making the claim (it's a bug), the burden of proof lies with you. It's that simple. 

 

Actually, it doesn't. This isn't a court of law. If software testing worked that way, nothing would get done.

 

Bug reports are almost always independently tested. That's what "steps to reproduce" are for! "Trust, but verify." Holy kaw.

 

Disputing a report requires just as much due diligence as the report, perhaps even more. 

 

As long as I'm dispelling common myths, the 10% of your brain thing? Not real. Also, opinions can be wrong.

[Arthmoor]

Actually, I'm going to remove myself now. You just proved that you don't actually care, and have now flat out stated that UFOP is your baby and you will add to it whatever you please, even if it is out of scope.

 

Good day sir.

 

 

For the record, I've been to 4chan exactly one time and despised myself for it, and I'm not sure why System Admins would be saying things about your mods or why I'd be repeating it.

 

FYI: Out of scope would be a mod that says it adds in an armor, and also changes 7 game settings related to player strength and health. Just kind of a baseline there.

You just proved that you know full well what SA meant (especially given the post I deleted) and are outright inventing bullshit to satisfy your already made up mind.

 

Fixing a bug is not out of scope, therefore no such out of scope behavior has taken place. So you are once again factually wrong in your assertion.

 

Your example is irrelevant. If the mod author states that his mod does the things you mention, they are by definition not out of scope. If the UFO4P had stated that "subjective bullshit will be added solely at our discretion" you'd have a case. Except that's not what's happening, so you have no case.

 

I expect you'll honor your word and excuse yourself at this point.

[fireundubh]

FYI: Out of scope would be a mod that says it adds in an armor, and also changes 7 game settings related to player strength and health. Just kind of a baseline there.

 

Well, that's a double-edged sword.

 

If a mod says that it sets iDeathDropWeaponChance to zero, then setting iDeathDropWeaponChance to zero is not out of scope for that mod.

 

And that mod is the Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch.

[gazza1986]

Has the UFO4P come to an end now Arthmoor?

[Arthmoor]

No, we're just on haitus until we get some stuff straightened out with Bethesda. Primarily waiting on the cell reset bug to get patched (sprint bug goes with this) so that fixes we make out in the world won't randomly break shit all over the game. Then we'll need to decide just how to deal with the precombine/previs garbage. That's likely to severely limit what we can do without again breaking a bunch of random shit in the world.

[gazza1986]

No, we're just on haitus until we get some stuff straightened out with Bethesda. Primarily waiting on the cell reset bug to get patched (sprint bug goes with this) so that fixes we make out in the world won't randomly break shit all over the game. Then we'll need to decide just how to deal with the precombine/previs garbage. That's likely to severely limit what we can do without again breaking a bunch of random shit in the world.

No problems. Keep up the good work. The best mod out there at the moment is the Unofficial Patch.

[Nico coiN]

I don't know where to post this. I know modding for FO4 is actually partially on pause because of various bugs that devs have to fix. I also know there's already a trackdown for Skyim cut content but I think there's still not any for FO4. This mod looks interesting and appropriate according to the few informations given by the author.

[thelonewanderer]

As a grateful user of the unofficial patches for Skyrim and Fallout 4 I am primarily interested in the quest fixes that you provide. The quest bugs usually prevent me from sucessfully completing a quest and are must-haves in my opinion. 

Other issues like text fixes - while greatly appreciated - fall more into the "nice to have" category as far as I am concerned.

 

So I was wondering if the cell reset bug and the precombine/previs issue are linked to specific types of bugs in the game or prevent fixing any/all kinds of bugs?

 

Thanks again for your terrific work!

[fireundubh]

 

So I was wondering if the cell reset bug and the precombine/previs issue are linked to specific types of bugs in the game or prevent fixing any/all kinds of bugs?

 

These issues don't prevent fixing any/all kinds of bugs, but they do present undesirable tradeoffs in the areas of functionality and performance.

 

With respect to precombination/previs, the janky design of these systems means that some bug fixes (and mods) can and do make the game unplayable for many people.