Is S.T.E.P lying about mod management?

[z929669]

Leo, do you realise that the whole of the STEP Forum ( and the wiki ), is in support of the STEP Project ?. Have you ever used it ?.

 

Its not like any other community, the whole thing has a specialist goal, and anything they say there is for that aim, and not general advice. What is said in the guides is in support and geared towards the whole project.

 

When you consider that, I see nothing wrong with what they have said on one of their guides that Wrye Bash should be considered by STEP users as a helper tool toward the common goal, when MO is the current chosen ( and documented throughout the rest of all the guides ) primary mod manipulation tool for the project.

 

Personally I think this whole topic is just a lack of understanding.

I was going to respond to Leo, but this did it for me. Exactly. the STEP guide depends on a 'standard' that we define to make life a bit simpler in terms of supporting users ... same as Arthmoor et al's standards of mod packaging into BSAs now (which can be subverted using certain MO functionality that has since been turned into a toggle).

 

We are not 'bashing' the Bash, just limiting our official STEP-specific support to MO users, due to idiosyncratic tendencies of all mod-management and usage methods ... needed to pick one that works, and MO has the most comprehensive-fully-functional toolkit for our needs ATM.

 

As Tech states, STEP is more of a comprehensive-modding-training-and-reference site with a lot of info and resources brought together from many places ... geared mostly to people new to modding but including general references and posting area for all levels. I (and a few others) was tired of finding disparate information about modding all over the internet and wanted a single hub to bring it all together in consensus. Much of our information must be credited to others on Beth Forums, AFK, Nexus, TES Alliance, USEPwiki, Planet Elder Scrolls, dev/akm, <paste unending continuation list here> ... but much of the info we have is primary source ... all brought together in one place ... forever incomplete. (Please report errors, inconsistencies, or untruths.)

 

Anyway, WB will always be 'king' in my book, but it has a worthy contender to deal with now. Competition leads to improvement and choice, eh?

 

------------------

OT, but maybe BTB's guide will provide some laughs and take you all back a bit and provide some examples of what a hack modding Morrowind used to be (and still is). My most favorite written guide by far ... something I love about the idea of modding with Swedish redheads with eye patches

[Leonardo]

"the process of 500-600 packages in BAIN vs MO" do you mean bashed patch building? That would indeed be interesting, there shouldn't be no difference.

No I don't mean bashed patch building, but what I mean is how long would it take BAIN outside of MO vs BAIN within MO to scan the data for BAIN archives, which Wrye Bash always do when you clicked on the Installers tab for the first time.

 

I think there should be a difference.

[Spock]

Hmm.. off the top of my head, this shouldn't be too hard to test. With an existing WB install, copy your data folder into the MO install folder (maybe rename it) and launch WB through MO. You might have to move the installers folder into the data folder though (dunno if MO allows WB to access external folders other then the virtual data folder).

[Arthmoor]

OT, but maybe BTB's guide will provide some laughs and take you all back a bit and provide some examples of what a hack modding Morrowind used to be (and still is). My most favorite written guide by far ... something I love about the idea of modding with Swedish redheads with eye patches

Yep, got my start on Morrowind. Was amazed much of anything worked right at all back in 2003. Things are MUCH improved these days though thanks to Wrye Mash. You knew I'd bring it up, yes?

Mash has largely tamed the mess, and from what I see, is pretty much the goto program in MW mod installations. Precisely because it allows you to exert as much or as little control over the Data folder as you want - without virtual file systems getting in the way of things.

[VaultDuke]

I get the feeling, that in a few years, people will be using mod managers with virtual file systems, and tell the same story, how it used to be complicated and convoluted in the old days. Only then, the old days will be referring to the days of wrye bash

I can see the appeal of it. I haven't made the switch myself, because it seems a few issues are still not ironed out, while the traditional mod managers work mostly without issues

[Spock]

Sorry of jumping on the OT train...

Just wanted to throw in Telesphoro's list 'o mods:

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/telesphoros.htm

 

It was imho one of the most comprehensive mod lists at the time! I'm actually surpirsed it was updated so "recently"

 

I remember the time before the bashed patch too, but there was actually another, older levelled list merge tool out there. It could also merge objects but I don't remember if it was bugged.

 

@Gruftlord:

I doubt Wrye Bash will be replaced any time soon. The Bashed patch is and always was it's core feature and there is nothing like it. It is a godsent tool, especially for Oblivion.

[VaultDuke]

For skyrim the bashed patch has limited functionality. I personally prefer a merged patch using tes5edit. With the current speed of bash development, i feel tesxedit+skripts seems to be the better solution for skyrim compatibility solutions.

As someone who only came to bethesda games modding with skyrim, bash always seems to be the 'old' program, that didn't get much development any more. It never got to the same level of functionality that it has for oblivion, let alone continue to offer new stuff to make modding even more easy. NMM, skse, edit and MO do this. They provide more flexibility to skyrim modding, than what was possible in the days of oblivion (though some of them were around at the time, and offer the same functionality for both games nowadays). Bash on the other hand offers less it seems.

So as a nmm user, bash seems old school and MO not yet at a reliable state.

As a different pov though, i think it also depends on how you mod your game. I can see that in a community that prefers purity and revolves around fixing bug, reliability is the most important factor, while a community revolving about tons of loose files for replacement of every nickle and dime, flexibility, conflict resolution and speed are more important

[Leonardo]

The Bashed patch is and always was it's core feature and there is nothing like it. It is a godsent tool, especially for Oblivion.

This is exactly why I object about MO in general, because you must include all useful WB-features into another mod manager that doesn't support such features regardless if it uses VFS or not.

 

I think that is probably the main reason why some people doesn't have a single issue while other people had an issue now and then in MO.

[Arthmoor]

NMM, skse, edit and MO do this. They provide more flexibility to skyrim modding, than what was possible in the days of oblivion (though some of them were around at the time, and offer the same functionality for both games nowadays). Bash on the other hand offers less it seems.

NMM is just FOMM (which is in turn just OBMM) with a better looking UI and some code improvements. NMM hasn't really done anything radically different until they started toying with their own virtualization system. Which means I can't even update NMM to be able to look at stuff without it wanting to convert the whole thing, and I don't want that.

OBSE and NVSE/FOSE came before and offer pretty much exactly what SKSE offers for Skyrim. So nothing really different there.

Same with xEdit and Bash, although for the Fallout games Bash kind of suffered from a lack of interest when most of the Oblivion people didn't make the transition.

MO is really the only new thing to come about with functionality that was targeted toward Skyrim. IMO, it was built to address a specific problem that no longer exists in the game because the issue was fixed 3 years ago by official patches.

Basically though, just because Bash is old and its development has slowed doesn't mean it should be cast aside. All it needs is someone with a decent enough understanding of Python to come along and give it a hand and it'll be right back where it belongs in no time. Hell, use Sharlikran's branch and you'll have easily half of the patch functions back that have been sorely missing.

[alt3rn1ty]

Sorry of jumping on the OT train...

Just wanted to throw in Telesphoro's list 'o mods:

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/telesphoros.htm

 

It was imho one of the most comprehensive mod lists at the time! I'm actually surpirsed it was updated so "recently"

 

I remember the time before the bashed patch too, but there was actually another, older levelled list merge tool out there. It could also merge objects but I don't remember if it was bugged.

 

 

I loved Ronin49's sites, Telesphoros being the most frequented

 

My bold : TESTool by Ghostwheel, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:TESTool ( used to be hosted on PES, no idea if someone has hosted it elsewhere )

 

 

Edit : @ Leo - I dont know if you are still preserving things on another site somewhere ( I forget ) .. Here's a link I just remembered which may have some useful links or web archive stuff you may not have seen before http://www.mwmythicmods.com/mystara.htm

 

Edit 2 : @ Spock - On the link I just gave Leo, look for Ghostwheels Morrowind Page, go to it, and the TES Plugin Tool 1.3 zip is still downloadable via the wayback machine web archive

[Spock]

Ah, right, Ghostwheel! If you install Morrowind mods, get that one, it's one of the essential MW tools (just don't use dialogue merging and read before using object merging).

 

Arthmoor I think you might be caught up on the BSA thing a little too much. The alternative BSA handling of MO is a side feature which can be turned off. MO is mainly a really powerful library tool. I doubt such a convenient and powerful library functionality is possible without a virtual folder.

[Arthmoor]

Arthmoor I think you might be caught up on the BSA thing a little too much. The alternative BSA handling of MO is a side feature which can be turned off. MO is mainly a really powerful library tool. I doubt such a convenient and powerful library functionality is possible without a virtual folder.

Not really. BSAs are the primary means of serving content for TES games and have been since Morrowind. At least if you were an official DLC. It only became feasible for modders to do this once Bethesda fixed the issues with the BSA loader.

You say it's now a side feature, but I don't believe that since it was MO's primary marketing angle for ages before some of us put our feet down and refused to bend to the demands to serve our content in a way that was against our own interests.

As far as a powerful "library function" - it exists. It's called BAIN. It works with the game the way it was designed and is, thankfully, the one feature of Bash that didn't suffer during the transition period.

[TechAngel85]

You say it's now a side feature, but I don't believe that since it was MO's primary marketing angle for ages before some of us put our feet down and refused to bend to the demands to serve our content in a way that was against our own interests.

That's a rather down way to look at things considering what Spock said is true. MO's default way of handling BSAs is with its own set of rules. However, it can in fact be turned off and BSAs will be handled in the same way WB handles them; the way you like. So I have to say that if MO's default handling of BSAs is your main argument against it, it's a rather flawed argument considering the feature can be disable with a simple tick of a box. You'll also notice that the DLC files are unmanaged by default.

 

[Arthmoor]

It may be a "down" way to look at things, but that's how it was. Before some of us objected to demands to make content conform to what MO users wanted. Doing so simply isn't something I consider feasible, so I stood firm, and I have no regrets in that.

 

BSA handling is one big thing, yes, and while that option may exist NOW, it didn't before, but it doesn't go far enough since allowing that sort of thing to exist still causes problems because everyone and his dog advises turning it on anyway. IMO, it's not something that should ever have been put in.

 

The other major issue I have is the VFS itself, which apparently you can't shut off. So it can never behave in what I consider a normal manner and I'm not going to advise others to use something I'd not use myself. I get that you guys don't like it when people like me say things like that, but we are in fact entitled to that viewpoint and are entitled to share it with others.

[TechAngel85]

Actually, the viewpoints of others have never really affected STEP and probably never will when it comes to mod managers. Hence why I didn't want to debate anything about mod managers. Just want to provide some clarity on it's features and use and that's the reason of the pic above. To show that users have the choice on how they want to manage their BSAs. You are correct that the VFS can't be turned off. It's part of how MO works at its core. I find it interesting that NMM has decided to go this route as well, though. Perhaps there could be more value in it than you see if two of the three major mod managers for Skyrim are headed that direction (of course MO having it already implemented at its launch).

[zilav]

I remember my main concern about MO when it just came out - it is being developed by a single person. Now several years later this is still true. All other popular 3rd party apps are developed by teams: WB, script extenders, xEdit. If Tannin will stop developing it at some point, then MO is dead and will repeat the poor fate of CBash. Why is it so - I don't have any idea, just guess that making mod manager is not so interesting as messing with the game directly like script extendes or plugins manipulation.

[VaultDuke]

The feature the NMM did promote its upcoming vfs with was the ability to have different mod lists for different characters and switch between them with the press of a button. Currently the NMM offers no way to change the install order of two overwriting mods, without at least uninstalling and reinstalling one of them (if for example you want to switch to a different blend of two texture mods). The vfs is there, to improve the speed of such actions, and reduce the load on the hard drive.

I can see why a feature such as these are in high demand in a place that evolves around lots of replacer mods.

In it's current state, the improvements NMM has over bash are nexus api and yes, the ui.i don't consider them minor improvements. They make my modding a ton easier and fun for me.

I of course do not have enough knowledge about the skript extenders, to know any detail. But what was the first game to get a MCM, and how high is the level of mods using it vs mods using spells and books with popups and slow ingame checkbox based options menus?

Also, with immersive armors i became aware the skse is able to change leveled lists at runtime. I had my fingers crossed, this would mean the need for a bashed patch would be gone. That didn't happen though, so i guess a few required features are missing from skse. Still do other mods for older games exist, that change leveled lists using skript extender functions?

In light of me promoting the viewpoint of "the correct mod manager for you may depend on how and with what kind of mods you primarily want to mod your game" i think i heavily prefer decluttered and sleak UIs. A ui with pictograms is huge in my opinion, and ingame i have got rid of all mods with popup menus. And don't get me wrong, i like settings and options. Currently i have 33 mcms out of 89 installed plugins (13 of which are official + unofficial patches). Tidyness is also the reason why i prefer bsa over loose file for anything other than textures and meshes. Since all my texture mods from the nexus come as loose files, i don't get why bsa unpacking is a feature at all. Bsas keep the data folder tidy and make uninstalling of mods easier.

And lastly, since i'm actually clueless: What is BAIN and what does it do?

[zilav]

MCM came from fallouts, and even there it appeared after some delay so there are a lot of older mods there using message boxes and similar stuff.

Levelled lists modification is available in all extenders, even in Oblivion. This one operates only in runtime changing levelled lists according to ini settings. This is very flexible indeed, but a nightmare to debug as you can't see the end result being used by the game. Some people like me prefer to have full control over the game

BAsh INstaller

[VaultDuke]

Thanks for the links. Bain soundd indeed like a good way to keep my data folder even tidier, with its option to automatically ignore docs and pictures, and to check the content of individual subfolders (i know of at least one mod, where i had to manually d&d an alternative esp from a subfolder after using nmm)

Two more questions regarding bain:

Can it run NMM installers? And can i copy the install order file from one computer, drop it into another bain and; given i have the same zips in each, simply press a button such as anneal or this "recheck bain install" (don't remenber the exact setting name any more) and have bash set up my second pc the same way i have it on the first?

That automatic load order mod you linked though was released in 2012, so in my eyes "during the glorious days of skyrim modding"

[Leonardo]

I loved Ronin49's sites, Telesphoros being the most frequented

 

My bold : TESTool by Ghostwheel, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:TESTool ( used to be hosted on PES, no idea if someone has hosted it elsewhere )

 

 

Edit : @ Leo - I dont know if you are still preserving things on another site somewhere ( I forget ) .. Here's a link I just remembered which may have some useful links or web archive stuff you may not have seen before http://www.mwmythicmods.com/mystara.htm

 

Edit 2 : @ Spock - On the link I just gave Leo, look for Ghostwheels Morrowind Page, go to it, and the TES Plugin Tool 1.3 zip is still downloadable via the wayback machine web archive

I think you should know that recently Ronin49 became active in the community again after a few years absence.

 

I thought you already know by now that TESTool already has a permanent home and that's MMH.

 

Thanks for reminding me about useful links, but I've had already bookmarked those links a couple years ago, so it isn't new to me and I also managed to get a working link via the Wayback Machine for others dead links here.

[Leonardo]

OT, but maybe BTB's guide will provide some laughs and take you all back a bit and provide some examples of what a hack modding Morrowind used to be (and still is). My most favorite written guide by far ... something I love about the idea of modding with Swedish redheads with eye patches

Yep, got my start on Morrowind. Was amazed much of anything worked right at all back in 2003. Things are MUCH improved these days though thanks to Wrye Mash. You knew I'd bring it up, yes?

Mash has largely tamed the mess, and from what I see, is pretty much the goto program in MW mod installations. Precisely because it allows you to exert as much or as little control over the Data folder as you want - without virtual file systems getting in the way of things.

Sorry of jumping on the OT train...

Just wanted to throw in Telesphoro's list 'o mods:

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/telesphoros.htm

 

It was imho one of the most comprehensive mod lists at the time! I'm actually surpirsed it was updated so "recently"

 

I remember the time before the bashed patch too, but there was actually another, older levelled list merge tool out there. It could also merge objects but I don't remember if it was bugged.

 

@Gruftlord:

I doubt Wrye Bash will be replaced any time soon. The Bashed patch is and always was it's core feature and there is nothing like it. It is a godsent tool, especially for Oblivion.

I think this thread has run its course since there is already a thread about users mod tools here and I started it almost 2 years ago.  Although it's specific for Morrowind, but I think the discussion could be for all games.

 

Shall we continue the discussion there, perhaps close this thread or let this topic be open and splitting all off topic posts and merged them into the another thread.

[alt3rn1ty]

Two more questions regarding bain:

Can it run NMM installers? And can i copy the install order file from one computer, drop it into another bain and; given i have the same zips in each, simply press a button such as anneal or this "recheck bain install" (don't remenber the exact setting name any more) and have bash set up my second pc the same way i have it on the first?

That automatic load order mod you linked though was released in 2012, so in my eyes "during the glorious days of skyrim modding"

 

Installer zips have to be made BAIN friendly.

 

A FOMod format installer for NMM typically may only include one folder full of all resources and the xml script handles taking just what is needed out of the one folder in the zip for installation

 

Or they may make the installer which is separated into different resource folders, a common folder which has resources common to all choices, and then separate option folders ..

 

Its very much dependant upon the authors idea of installation logic

 

 

But thats not to say they cant be made suitable for all Mod Managers, have a look at my Kill The Orchestra zip

 

In the root of the archive I have a wizard.txt ( for Wrye Bash to run ), and all the folders in my installers adopt a similar format of a series of overwrites in order.

 

I then add a FOMod folder with the necessary xml scripts which is written to pull the same files from the same folders if NMM is used instead of Wrye Bash

 

Dual scripted installer ( Which I believe MO will also install by using its FOMod scripting )

 

 

Quite often I find you have to extract an installer zip and do a little re-arrangement, have a look at my Intro to using Installers section of images in the Wrye Bash Pictorial Guide http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/35230/?tab=3&selected_game=101&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Foblivion%2Fajax%2Fmodimages%2F%3Fid%3D35230%26user%3D1%26gid%3D101&pUp=1

 

Reference the Install Order portability - No to that question. But once you have installer zips in your Bash Installers folder :

 

 

 

Then load up Wrye Bash and go back into Wrye Bash Installers tab - The install Order is simply a case of Drag n Drop each zip to the install order position you want.

 

---------------------------------

 

 

I think this thread has run its course since there is already a thread about users mod tools here and I started it almost 2 years ago.  Although it's specific for Morrowind, but I think the discussion could be for all games.

 

Shall we continue the discussion there, perhaps close this thread or let this topic be open and splitting all off topic posts and merged them into the another thread. 

 

IMHO - I would say the title question has been answered, and is possibly going to be repeatedly perceived as insulting, so it should be locked to prevent more friction between sites ( late comers to the party with less understanding / attention span / diplomatic ability ).

 

And given the subject matter, we could all make an olympic sport out of running this topic "off topic" , personally I would rather keep running it off topic than have it stir up any conflict.

[keithinhanoi]

I think this thread has run its course since there is already a thread about users mod tools here and I started it almost 2 years ago.  Although it's specific for Morrowind, but I think the discussion could be for all games.

 

Shall we continue the discussion there, perhaps close this thread or let this topic be open and splitting all off topic posts and merged them into the another thread.

 

All off-topic links duly bookmarked for that one day in the future when I decide to play the rest of the TES games for the first time to make up for my "lost years" (I went from Wizardry and Ultima I-V on an Apple //c to Half Life 2 on a Mac with a few stops between, followed by Skyrim in BootCamp, now running on it's own dedicated miniITX super-toaster PC.) I'm pretty sure I won't be using MO for anything prior to Skyrim, so all of this will be very helpful - thanks.

 

As for the question of closing the thread: All opinions seem to be properly aired out - not likely to change, of course, but hopefully a few facts have been set straight. I won't be making any more posts.

 

Now going back to work on the next "big" update to AOS...

[alt3rn1ty]

Now going back to work on the next "big" update to AOS...

 

I'm going back to helping with a project I cant talk about currently, but its not for Skyrim anyway so most would not be interested.

 

Looking forward to the next AOS, and the next ELE, and the next RS .. So many very nice projects being actively refined lately.

[Spock]

I remember my main concern about MO when it just came out - it is being developed by a single person. Now several years later this is still true. All other popular 3rd party apps are developed by teams: WB, script extenders, xEdit.

 

Tbh that argument in general isn't very good because in programming several mediocre proggers cannot replace one really good programmer. (I don't mean to suggest an assessment of the programming skills of MO/xEdit etc! This is purely adressed at the theoretical argument).

 

Troubleshooting BAIN is also not easy. If files go wrongly annealed, especially if it is from seemingly unrelated mods it is a pain to find out. But you do have a point that you will have an even harder time troubleshooting MOs virtual file system. If the virtual filesystem is reliable, troubleshooting other installation errors should be easier though because you can more easily see what mod a file originates from and you do not have to worry about uninstallation at all (and uninstall logic by itself isn't the easiest).

 

MOs library functionality is more powerful then BAINs. Not having to repack archives but manipulating installed files directly saves a lot of time. Nexus API (with update checker) comes in very handy too. And lastly the profiles is a great feature.

 

I think the reason NMM is going for a virtual file system is, that it's really user friend if it works correctly. I can feel your pain when you have to deal with people not using the system correctly. But like I described to you, the same thing can happen to BAIN and it was indeed a pain to troubleshoot back then. Also, systems do crash at times, even the most rediculously stable ones. A system where files are just lying around and get ordered when you start the manager have an easier time to recover then a system that has to keep track of every file.

 

There is a reason both systems coexist, they each have their advantages and disadvantages.