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Arthmoor

My View on Mod Packs

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14 hours ago, RabidGears said:

Using the name mod packs here is not confusing, it's simple. It makes no difference whether it is assembled manually or automatically by a program - it's still essentially a mod pack.

BTW, you didn't really answer my questions in my previous post that you just quoted. I guess that in itself says everything about your opinion.

Ok. I answered your question but it seem you didn't understand it or stopped with first sentence. It's ok. It happens to me a lot. I am also not best in writing. 

Yes. Author have full rights to choose where they distribute their files. Some choose 3rd party sites like Nexus or ModDB, some have their own website. Autoinstallers fully accept that. They just automatize users actions. No instead clicking on each mod they do it for us. Do we have rights to use such programs without permission of authors? No we don't. But most of authors already give us permission. They did it by accepting terms on NEXUS. Problem is while mods are author's intellectual property, Nexus isn't. Also it's not free. It's payed by used one-time donation, subscriptions or watching ads (yes you pay for content on website by watching ads. you are "stealing" it if you use adblock.). My issue with this drama is that mod-authors shouldn't talk with authors of automatic installer (yes it's installing not packing anything). It should be between mod-authors and NEXUS, users and NEXUS (they decide pull out this function). Programs only allow us using this function of Nexus. 

Disclaimer: I love all my favorite mod and often they authors too (between them is also Arthmoor's LAL aka godsend mod and screw Unbound!). Not always accepting their wish if it's going against my own moral code and values. That's why i like Witcher book series but not all its authors actions and statements... Same dilema from history: Kafka's unfinished work was supposed to be destroyed. It was his will and wish. Should we accept this wish and destroy it? Choose wisely, it includes The Trial, The Castle or Amerika.

Edit: I am not trying bash anyone or something. Just explaining everything from my view on situation. As for appreciation of authors work i rather send them few bucks, nice words and endorsement (if someone or something reminds me after 15 min) in this order. You don't buy anything from your file sitting on one place. :D

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A couple of things about the Nexus angle.

1. I'm not convinced their ToS can legally cause us to surrender the right to block modpack inclusion since that's not the distribution terms that have been agreed to by anyone. The ToS makes no mention of it and they've never once followed legal requirements to inform members that those terms are being updated.

2. They have thus far refused to comment on the issue of an opt-out system at all. Which has led to a great deal of contention on the GMAD forum with people speculating hardcore on what that means.

So while we'd all love to get them to actually discuss things, all they seem interested in is staying mum about the whole thing. Which I don't think is good for anyone. They need to speak up and explain it all.

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1 hour ago, Arthmoor said:

So while we'd all love to get them to actually discuss things, all they seem interested in is staying mum about the whole thing. Which I don't think is good for anyone. They need to speak up and explain it all.

I wonder why haven't Dark0ne comment that before as he is well known for supporting the modding community.   I haven't heard or read anything from Dark0ne about this.  Have you read anything from Dark0ne about this?

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Only what he posted teasing the whole thing a few months back. Nothing since. Certainly no details on exactly how their system is going to work.

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I think there was question if current drama will cause problems with their new function - modlists (or modpacks? i hate using this word for anything what is not in package, we can call modpack most of lists and guide with this logic) on Reddit. Dark0ne kinda like "nope, we dont care". I try to find it but it's probably deep in Reddit.  

Anyway point was your whole trolling of users and Halgari was a bit unfair. It's NEXUS (or other third party site) who is distributing these files and we are at this moment allowed use third party programs if we authorize api. That's what WJ does. You select precreated modlist file and program is downloading it directly to your computer for you from sites. So what is not prohibited is allowed. That's how most of rules and laws are working. If you have problem with NEXUS about how they distributing your work, it's ok and understandable but purely business between you and them. If they dont do anything with it you can only pull your files from it or ask users nicely to not do it and let them choose which side they want support.

You also need to understand there is no big difference between guide and wj. We are directed to "files" page, doing click and that's all interaction with your site mostly. It's already taking days, you don't want spend other week by reading descriptions, comments etc. Especially if you aren't forced to do it. Argument about hard work isnt valid. It's more like reading manual or EULA (terms of condition). When you last time did it eh? :D

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7 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Only what he posted teasing the whole thing a few months back. Nothing since. Certainly no details on exactly how their system is going to work.

That comes to me as a surprise since Dark0ne has always put the community first and his commercial ambitions second at least that's my impression I got about Dark0ne.

@ZierryI still don't get it what purpose the Wabbajack has, I mean is it just to make mod installations simplier or what other purpose has it. :unsure:

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Leonardo: Just make mod installation faster, easier and safer. You dont have much option to screw it. Maybe everyone here should try classic guide like Lexy or Yashed and then Wabbajack. Also WJ has in rules you have to come with all your problems to author of wj list. You are not allowed to ask about your installation on discord of popular guides. Moderators are controlling it. Unfortunately they cannot control other discussions. Tho i doubt anyone inexperienced can track their problem to mod author so people here should be safe. 

Few pictures how does it look and actually working. Setup basic things and can go to do your rl stuff while it's working.

image.png.6bf77b09446dd259863b2ea3d33f8dd3.pngimage.png.d8f9c1b6d5a39a5d4edbc701fd2a9c63.pngimage.thumb.png.7785ae7c4cc27220bdad0b93a1ee60d5.png

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1 hour ago, Zierry said:

You are not allowed to ask about your installation on discord of popular guides.

That's something the people behind Wabbajack cannot prevent anyone to talk about what kind of a mod installation one have done with the Wabbajack.

If that's a requirement then I will state my permission for my mods here and now.

Quote

I disallow anyone who wants to include any of my mods in a list of mods that's intended to use in the Wabbajack.

Also, I won't change my mind about this, so don't ask me to change it.  Period!

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It's lazy, unfair, probably waste much more bandwidth, all this just to serve one guy's attention (and profit?). Sad. I see there's also a 3$ bribe for Nexus...

So... Use installers for mods now, no simple, exploitable, archives anymore. That's the ONLY solution i see yet.

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1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

That's something the people behind Wabbajack cannot prevent anyone to talk about what kind of a mod installation one have done with the Wabbajack.

If that's a requirement then I will state my permission for my mods here and now.

Also, I won't change my mind about this, so don't ask me to change it.  Period!

It's only to prevent more shitstorm than we already have and guides author kinda require. This is whole situation is like walking on minefield. There is always someone pissed about something. People come for support? Problem! People doesn't come for support? Problem. As for me i can promise you i will accept your wish and don't include any of your mods in my WJ list. But i am sorry you feel it this way. Proof:  image.png.bc8afc6a8bcfadc44905e5be5a07c40b.png

 

ManusMods: One guy's attention? It mainly serves users. If he get any money from i dont care. I am not envious person. Not sure now on what mods you working, so i don't know if i am using it in my list. Adding few installers instruction isn't problem. Even auto-downloading is great help. But this solution mostly piss off everyone. Luckily not all mod authors have problem with WJ. 

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10 hours ago, Zierry said:

Anyway point was your whole trolling of users and Halgari was a bit unfair.

Nobody trolled him or the users. As far as I'm concerned if you're characterizing things this way your argument has no merit because you're attempting to dictate to a mod author how their work is distributed. The incentive for dictating this is crystal clear - you want to be able to indiscriminately use other peoples' work in modpacks.

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If we could all just try to remain relaxed.

If you want to characterise the reversion (yes, I said reversion) of an Unofficial Patch to the older installer format then you'd also have to characterise halgari breaking open/reverse engineering the exe as trolling too. The involved parties are beyond that, thank you very much.

On the one hand it is true that what Wabbajack does is basically automate the downloading of files in much the same way that MO2 etc. automates the installing and LOOT automates the ordering of them. With that being said, Wabbajack can also modify files downloaded to match those present on the mod-list creator's hard drive - so it's not just an automated downloader, it actually duplicates an install.

It should be noted that Wabbajack has protections in place now to prevent this if the author wishes, and it is also designed in such a way that it can't be used with a mod-list secured behind a paywall.

The major issue with automated downloading is that, unlike a traditional modpack, it relies on files on external sites being unchanged from when the mod-list was created. This is a potential problem as over time mods may cease to be compatible with anything from minor glitches to full blown CTD on load.

The main way around this sort of problem, and around the issue of author engagement, is for author to band together and create their own mod-lists. There's a problem with that though - it's liable to lead to one or two or three monolithic mod-lists by a few well known authors.

The fact that this technology is coming, largely because of the Nexus API, does not negate any of the issues Arthmoor raised.

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7 hours ago, Zierry said:

ManuMods: One guy's attention? It mainly serves users. If he get any money from i dont care. I am not envious person. Not sure now on what mods you working, so i don't know if i am using it in my list. Adding few installers instruction isn't problem. Even auto-downloading is great help. But this solution mostly piss off everyone. Luckily not all mod authors have problem with WJ. 

There's N3xus premium condition first, it's a bargain in-between this robot & the N3xus. It's also stealing the interaction with mod makers. This is typical consumerism scheme, with all the drawback we can imagine. The only thing i can agree with is: it was an unavoidable emergence.

It's completely asymmetric and unfair for a small size mod containing a lot of scripts, fixing the whole game, being barely essential, which required a considerable time and efforts to implement. I don't know if capcha'd installers  are allowed on the Nexus, i hope so.

Thanks you

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16 hours ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

The major issue with automated downloading is that, unlike a traditional modpack, it relies on files on external sites being unchanged from when the mod-list was created. This is a potential problem as over time mods may cease to be compatible with anything from minor glitches to full blown CTD on load.

The main way around this sort of problem, and around the issue of author engagement, is for author to band together and create their own mod-lists. There's a problem with that though - it's liable to lead to one or two or three monolithic mod-lists by a few well known authors.

The fact that this technology is coming, largely because of the Nexus API, does not negate any of the issues Arthmoor raised.

I dont know why you see this problem only with WJ and not traditional guides. You know have still mod organizer and can change things on your own. You know your work on mods, i know exactly what is happening during installation huges modlist and what it can bring. Especially if  you don't know much about modding. 

We have very few still updated guides for each bethesda game and you want to follow them if want make huge stable modlist. If you don't and also don't have experience, you are asking for trouble. My brain is able comprehend why do as seemingly protective authors prefer user make their own mess. At least it looks like it. Unless you expect them use five mods unofficial patch included. 

If you actually have problems that with popular installers some won't have ever chance to get users attention... Well i can assure first thing i do when i am searching for mods, is to click on "most endorsed" or "most downloaded". 

Btw we would like have bigger range of lists but we are missing people who actually want to work on it. Wider range and bigger variety is always better. I am currently working on SkyRem, there is Lexy and Vr for Skyrim, F4EE for F4, Viva New Vegas for FNV and Bevilex for Oblivion. That's all. There was Yashed and Prometheus but... I suppose you know it ended.

Modlist made by few mod authors together and being approved as safe would benefit to everyone. But sadly i doesn't seem to be possible now. 

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7 hours ago, ManuMods said:

There's N3xus premium condition first, it's a bargain in-between this robot & the N3xus. It's also stealing the interaction with mod makers. This is typical consumerism scheme, with all the drawback we can imagine. The only thing i can agree with is: it was an unavoidable emergence.

It's completely asymmetric and unfair for a small size mod containing a lot of scripts, fixing the whole game, being barely essential, which required a considerable time and efforts to implement. I don't know if capcha'd installers  are allowed on the Nexus, i hope so.

Thanks you

I am more than happy to use these small essential mods fixing whole game which are not included in any of mentioned lists. I could make my own using list using The Method i keep hearing about. 

Now. What kind of interaction you would like. Till now i kept hearing from authors they don't to be bothered with support. I can people to you. No big problem. If they would like to go in first place ofc. 

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12 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Nobody trolled him or the users. As far as I'm concerned if you're characterizing things this way your argument has no merit because you're attempting to dictate to a mod author how their work is distributed. The incentive for dictating this is crystal clear - you want to be able to indiscriminately use other peoples' work in modpacks.

I am using other people's work in my "modpacks" (i prefer to them call "custom modlists") for ages on my HDD and nobody complained yet. They even sometimes helped me with support when i screwed up something. I am sometimes even sharing them through modwatch. 

As for dictating distribution i am innocent here. I don't even complain when they use mediafire. 🤮

Arthmoor, i don't want take anything from you nor dictate you something. Nobody is requiring any action from you. Only thing everyone would prefer is less war and more cooperation from all sides. 

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4 hours ago, Zierry said:

Especially you don't know much about modding. 

Sigurd IS a modder, so he does know something about modding and I admit he knows more about modding than me.

And your post show us how much about modding you know, which is basically nothing in comparison to a lot of the people around here.  I strongly suggest that you stick with facts and not state something we know is a damn lie. :bat:

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4 hours ago, Zierry said:

I am more than happy to use these small essential mods fixing whole game which are not included in any of mentioned lists. I could make my own using list using The Method i keep hearing about. 

Now. What kind of interaction you would like. Till now i kept hearing from authors they don't to be bothered with support. I can people to you. No big problem. If they would like to go in first place ofc. 

- Create a website where mod makers can register and design 1 full screen window in which they can put a background picture, customize  -a bit- the position/colors of the "install" button, fonts, and where they can put the text and links they want. You are validating each mod for integration.

- Robot's "users" will then spend a bit more time, like what ? 30 seconds ? 1 minute per mod install ? instead of 0-10 seconds... Enjoying creative posters & getting useful info for each mod - from their creators directly -

Basically the one "screwed" here is N3xus... I guess this is the minimum mod makers deserve, and if i had to code such robot this is probably what i would do. I may ask help for the website tho. :lol:

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2 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Sigurd IS a modder, so he does know something about modding and I admit he knows more about modding than me.

And your post show us how much about modding you know, which is basically nothing in comparison to a lot of the people around here.  I strongly suggest that you stick with facts and not state something we know is a damn lie. :bat:

I think you misunderstood what i was talking about. I know, my english and missing words aren't helping. :D

Let me rephrase it. I know what doing modlists on your own can do if you aren't experienced. It can be huge mess. And author of suspected problem mod is first on the line. When remember my first mod list for Oblivion. Oh my... 

Yes, Sigurd IS mod maker and think he knows really well his work. I am purely modoholic following all possible guides and making few own lists. 

Sorry if it sounded i am slurring him. I basically love all mod authors. Except those making booby sexy loli anime mods. Screw those guys. :D

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On 10/7/2019 at 4:19 PM, Zierry said:

I think you misunderstood what i was talking about. I know, my english and missing words aren't helping. :D

Let me rephrase it. I know what doing modlists on your own can do if you aren't experienced. It can be huge mess. And author of suspected problem mod is first on the line. When remember my first mod list for Oblivion. Oh my... 

Yes, Sigurd IS mod maker and think he knows really well his work. I am purely modoholic following all possible guides and making few own lists. 

Sorry if it sounded i am slurring him. I basically love all mod authors. Except those making booby sexy loli anime mods. Screw those guys. :D

It's alright, I understood what you meant. To answer your question, the difference between using a guide and using a Wabbajack installer is that in the former case you have to go to the download page and when it says "Download Oblivion Reloaded 6.5" and you only see "7.0" at least you'll realise something has changed.

Incidentally, given that MO2 doesn't play well with Oblivion using Wabbajack for that game is perhaps not advisable.

@ManuMods You do realise you can write "Nexus" here, right? Robin isn't going to come find you and spank you for it.

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I didn't really want to be involved in this discussion as I've already had my say. But I will ask if anyone has questions about Wabbajack they can feel free to talk to me, read the docs on Github, or even try the app.

Zierry doesn't speak for the Wabbajack project, and I've asked him several times to stop arguing on my behalf. 

There's a fair amount of dis-information here about what Wabbajack can and can't do.  Wabbajack can 100% functionally duplicate a modlist, it always errs on not installing at all instead of creating a broken install. So the whole idea of "slapping a few mods together and hope they don't break" doesn't really apply as the quality of the modlist is exactly the same as the quality of the input. We do this via content hashing, binary patching, and deterministic algorithms, if you want to read more on those subjects. This of-course does mandate that modlist authors maintain good modlists, but that also applies to mod guides (look no further than Sinitar here)

As I stated in my discussion with Arthmoor, my end-goal has always been to provide as close to a one-click install as possible, and we've very successful in that endeavor, the product is built, and it works. I know people are concerned about having tons of broken installs, but in my experience it's not a concern that has manifested in the Wabbajack community. We see thousands of users (literally thousands, we're at > 7000 discord users at the moment), and aside from the normal headaches of managing a Windows app (windows isn't exactly a consistent target), users are happily playing the game 1-2 hours after they begin the install and all but 15 minutes of that is spent waiting for Wabbajack to finish its work. 

I know the original discussion was directed more to the Nexus' plans, but Wabbajack somehow got drug into this discussion. Hopefully the Nexus will take note of some of the methods we use, and adopt them, as anything besides content hashing will be very prone to failure and will result in hard to diagnose problems. Which incidentally is one of the problems I've had with Automaton's implementation. 

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8 hours ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

@ManuMods You do realise you can write "Nexus" here, right? Robin isn't going to come find you and spank you for it.

" one-click "  and you are good to ignore this insignificant detail.

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6 hours ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Hi,

I don't want to disturb the topic with this... Too late:

1/ I wrote "n3xus" to show it was one of the main problem of the topic, and writing it again and again only feeds the google search machine with it. Without Nexvs this WajabackInTheBack would not be able to centralize and serialize the massive download.

2/ "one click" refers to the post above where the dev explains his tool will just download mods in 1 click, it's the goal, and seems it's not subject to change -at all-.

I'm not a mod maker, was just here for some translation issue... But... More than a decade ago i created myself some kind of robot, for a game, getting up to 45k+ forum users. I know this halgari has the hand and i know he can easily give a better space in his app to mod makers, i know it can make it great. Unfortunately seems he does not want to do that, it's all about deflecting on the -efforts to make the tool to deliver more stable packs-; nothing else. My opinion is: this is not an acceptable behavior, it's blatantly destructive on the long run.

I'm very sad for your mod makers when i see such situation.

 

GL, i wish i would help it more.

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10 hours ago, ManuMods said:

Hi,

I don't want to disturb the topic with this... Too late:

1/ I wrote "n3xus" to show it was one of the main problem of the topic, and writing it again and again only feeds the google search machine with it. Without Nexvs this WajabackInTheBack would not be able to centralize and serialize the massive download.

2/ "one click" refers to the post above where the dev explains his tool will just download mods in 1 click, it's the goal, and seems it's not subject to change -at all-.

I'm not a mod maker, was just here for some translation issue... But... More than a decade ago i created myself some kind of robot, for a game, getting up to 45k+ forum users. I know this halgari has the hand and i know he can easily give a better space in his app to mod makers, i know it can make it great. Unfortunately seems he does not want to do that, it's all about deflecting on the -efforts to make the tool to deliver more stable packs-; nothing else. My opinion is: this is not an acceptable behavior, it's blatantly destructive on the long run.

I'm very sad for your mod makers when i see such situation.

 

GL, i wish i would help it more.

Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining. You are, of course, correct that a lot of this is being driven by the API.

 

Another major issue I am only now starting to realise is that many people cannot distinguish between the "code" of a mod that makes said mod work and which anyone can extract and use and the actual mod itself, the artistic content.

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