[WiP/Brainstorm] Busting the Guild

[Arthmoor]

Ok, having just taken my orc into Riften for the first time, I can no longer ignore the cries of Mjoll wanting to clean up the corruption in the city once and for all. I don't even know where to begin collecting thoughts and ideas for this, but it somehow needs to get done assuming Bethesda doesn't gank us in a DLC.

 

The basic idea being that if you show up and tell her you agree with her stance on the guild, you should get the chance to help her start righting the wrongs of the city. Perhaps after retrieving her sword for her or something.

 

The only thing I have at present is tying Shadr's debt relief quest into this somehow, to give you more of a motivation to want to help him.

 

Also perhaps helping a couple of the NPCs you find in the Ratway to get out and return to some sort of normal life.

 

Ultimately of course leading to the destruction of the Thieves Guild, and by necessity, bringing down Maven Black-Briar. Yes, I'd love nothing more than to depose her even AFTER she's mad Jarl.

 

So let's get the ball rolling on this one. An epic quest line that doesn't even require new locations so we don't have to fear the navmesh bug! Riften is ripe with opportunities here.

 

BTW, name in the topic is a working title for now. If something better comes along, so be it.

[AndalayBay]

I like this idea. I was thinking of not bothering with the thieves guild on my next play-through, so having an alternative is very appealing.Agree with all your thoughts. You'd need a new Jarl to replace Ms. Nutcase.Could you hijack some of the thieves guild radiant quests to avoid needing new dungeons? I'm just thinking you'd need to build up resources somehow to overthrow the thieves guild.

[Hana]

If Mjoll doesn't like Riften so much, why doesn't she just leave? I never did like her, but I did just do her quest on one of my chars, just because I'm bored with the game and not much left to do. Have to say, amazing dungeon. Anyway... /off topic.So you want to destroy the TG, eh? I would love to put an arrow between Maven's eyes. How about involving her kids in quests. I'm pretty sure her daughter doesn't like her mothers lifestyle very much. And Sibbi rotting in jail wouldn't seem to mind old Ma biting the dust. Isn't there another person in the family? Some guy who just hangs out in the house all the time? Lots of ways to destroy Maven from the inside, where it hurts. Also, don't forget the retreat location where you go steal the horse. I'm sure you could find opportunities there. Maybe have the TG exiled there by the end? Please don't kill off Brynjolf, I love him, and I'd cry (even though I can't play it). I wouldn't bat an eye sticking a knife in Vex's throat tho.Even just thinking off the top of my head, this is gonna get pretty scripty complicated. Many factors of where players are in the TG quest line - is it started, is it almost done, is it done. What if you're already Guild Master? Would you still destroy it? Where the player is in the Civil War quest line ... all that fun stuff to figure out. Epic questline for sure, but just because Mjoll cries about it? There's got to be a lot more to it than that. And what would be her stake in it? Quests where *I* do all the work and someone else gets all the glory aren't interesting to me. You'd have to make this rewarding for the player in such a way to make them want to do it. Especially if they were to make a choice of destroying their own guild.I guess I've not really helped much... no ideas, just rambling.

[Ysne58]

One thing to consider -- how would Nocturnal fit in with an alternate guild? I think it's doable, and I would love to see this done.

[Arthmoor]

I think this would probably work better as the Thieves version of wiping out the Dark Brotherhood. Except the Thieves are more organized and well connected, so you'll need to start breaking that down first. Even though they're in deep doo doo already because of Mercer. Which leads to the possibility that you might even convince Mercer to let you help him take the guild all the way down while you're going through all this.No idea how Nocturnal could work in yet. Maybe she doesn't have to, considering Sithis doesn't work in to the destruction of the DB.I think pursuing the destruction of the guild would have to have a certain cut-off point where there's no reversing your decision to join them if you already have. Like how that Blackwood Company mod did with Oblivion. You could turn against them only up to a certain point in the FG quest line, after that, you're committed full time.This is why this brainstorming topic needs to happen. I'm convinced Mjoll was implanted as a quest hook for modders to exploit, and it's high time someone did

[Sigurð Stormhand]

I prophesy epic DLC ganking.Sorry, but I have to be honest - the hook you describe whiffs of KotN all over again.

[Ysne58]

Mjoll would make the perfect npc leader of a Robin Hood type guild, where thievery skills have a place but you don't have to play an evil gangster type.Whether you would make a place for Nocturnal in this new guild is up to you. Someone else could always create a separate mod for people who want that skeleton key without having to go through the TG quest. That might just be a whole separate quest line anyway.Brainstorming is always a good way to start.

[AndalayBay]

Yeah I was really disappointed that I had to hand in the Skeleton Key. I hung on to it for quite a while before I finally did that quest.

[Leonardo]

I had almost the same thoughts as Arthmoor when I first meet Mjoll and I've helped her in every game I started.

 

I also like the idea of deposing the Thieves Guild like you did in Morrowind, but this time it's the Dark Brotherhood who want to get rid of its legacy from the past and found a Morag Tong Guild in Riften and that's not gonna to happen throughout Skyrim just Riften.  This means that some research needs to be made to make this idea more or less lore friendly as possible and one aspect that comes to mind is the fact that Morag Tong simple evacuate Vvardenfell and finally took the opportunity to settle down in Riften during the refugee convoy from Morrowind after the volcano eruption on Red Mountain.  I'm just throw out my idea here and some of you may or may not like it and that's okay with me. :smile:

 

Another thing about the Jarl for Riften is to make Aerin (a dear friend of Mjoll) a Jarl in Riften, because Mjoll really wants to pay back to Aerin for what he has done for her after all he if anyone was the one to save her life.  That's why she needs your help to make this happen.  So what's the reward for doing this well...

 

• Aerin is the new Jarl
• Mjoll is Aerin's Housecarl
• You're Thane of Riften

 

Why is Aerin is the new Jarl is quite obvious, because he doesn't know how to fight and Mjoll doesn't want to make decisions.  It's also obvious why the player is Thane of Riften and that's because the player is dragonborn.

[Leonardo]

Ok, having just taken my orc into Riften for the first time, I can no longer ignore the cries of Mjoll wanting to clean up the corruption in the city once and for all. I don't even know where to begin collecting thoughts and ideas for this, but it somehow needs to get done assuming Bethesda doesn't gank us in a DLC.

 

The basic idea being that if you show up and tell her you agree with her stance on the guild, you should get the chance to help her start righting the wrongs of the city. Perhaps after retrieving her sword for her or something.

 

The only thing I have at present is tying Shadr's debt relief quest into this somehow, to give you more of a motivation to want to help him.

 

Also perhaps helping a couple of the NPCs you find in the Ratway to get out and return to some sort of normal life.

 

Ultimately of course leading to the destruction of the Thieves Guild, and by necessity, bringing down Maven Black-Briar. Yes, I'd love nothing more than to depose her even AFTER she's mad Jarl.

I think this would probably work better as the Thieves version of wiping out the Dark Brotherhood. Except the Thieves are more organized and well connected, so you'll need to start breaking that down first. This is why this brainstorming topic needs to happen. I'm convinced Mjoll was implanted as a quest hook for modders to exploit, and it's high time someone did

There is only one problem with your idea is that Maven Black-Briar already have ties to both the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and the Black-Briar family is having Riften in their pocket, which is exactly what Maul told the player when visiting Riften for the first time in the triggered dialogue event in the street.

 

 

Personally, I think the Black-Briar family are the ones who should be disposed from Riften in the same way the Dark Brotherhood had their own internal extermination *affairs* throughout the history as soon the Dagon's Razor is used as an instrument to get full control of Dark Brotherhood.

 

You know the Shadr's debt quest you were referring too is similar to those quests you must do before you can be Thane of Riften, so how to get that quest triggered can be done in several ways and one route is to triggered it during the "A Cornered Rat" quest via a triggered scene event as soon the player enter the Ratway and trying to locate Esbern somewhere down there.

 

Vex with another Thieves Guild member could have a conversion in private were both of them are complaining about the direction the Thieves Guild has taken after the take over of Maven Black-Briar, because they're certainly not satisfied with Maven at all but they do agree that it won't happen unless someone from the outside can help them and Mjoll is one such candidate.  Unfortunately they changed their mind when they found out that Mjoll wants to get whole Riften *cleansed* from corruption, which means the Thieves Guild would probably not exist in Riften if Mjoll was asked to help them.

 

When that became a reality for those Thieves Guild members they simply decided to tip off Mjoll about Shadr's debt and when Aerin realise that he told Mjoll to let it go, because it was too dangerous and I think you can over heard him saying that to Mjoll (both of them are standing closed to a house on opposite side from where Maul is standing) once you have passed through the north city gate.

 

 

After you have hand over Grimsever to Mjoll she told you a little more about her self and ask you if you were coming back to Riften in the future.

 

So if you say "Yes I will coming back to Riften." and she said "Well then please visit us and you're more than welcome to stay with us anytime."... 

...or if you say "No I won't coming back to Riften in future." she said "What a pity but I cannot stop you for doing other things can I." something like that.

 

 

The next time you visit Riften provided that you said yes to Mjoll when she asked you about visiting Riften in future, she has more confidence for you and will share you more details about what can be done without getting hurt.

 

Her plan is pretty simple and that she is trying to find out what more can be done without doing anything just like what Maul is doing for Maven Black-Briar.  But she needs your help to accomplish the objective and that's exactly the reason why she mention to you about Shadr's debt a sort of a test about your discretion to handle Shadr's debt without being notice from Maven's people except for Maul, because he doesn't care what you do except for interfering the business of the Black-Briar family which you don't interfere in fact you have helped Maven to collect the debt.

 

Later on after helping the people in Riften Vex and the other Thieves Guild member heard about your success about helping people in Riften they agreed to contact you via the courier.  The letter tells you that they want to talk with you in private near the Morrowind border to the east from Riften (shown in these pictures 1, 2).  I think there is an old ruined watch tower nearby.

 

Once you have meet them they'll layout everything in front of you without having any obligation for you to do to get their trust, because they already know by now that they can trust you since you have already have helped the people in Riften.

 

After you have listen to them you can ask them a couple of questions about how to achieve what they want to happen with your help of course.  Vex explained to you that they know a way to get rid of Maven and the Black-Briar family once and for all.  Both of them have establish a contact with the few members of the Morag Tong that managed to escape the eruption in Vvardenfell and fled to Skyrim in hope to find a sanctuary and restore the original Morag Tong it once were in Morrowind before the eruption on Red Mountain.

 

The thing is that the members of Morag Tong is trapped inside of Forelhost, because there is some suspicious people there who is camping just outside the entrance and they can't go out without being notice.  If you accept to help Vex and her guild mate and go to Forelhost to investigate what kind of people is camping there, which will trigger the "Siege on the Dragon Cult" quest and once that quest is finished the group of Morag Tong members will start camping outside just by taken over the campsite that's already there when you arrive there for the first time.

 

Back in Riften both Vex and her friend will know that you have succeeded with your investigation in Forelhost with some help from Mjoll (I think most people will have Lydia in tow when visiting Forelhost), because Mjoll is wearing a complete set of Ancient Nord armour and by then they can get in touch with their contact in Morag Tong since it's safe to go outside.

 

Now it's the time for the player to ask Mjoll to came with her/him to Forelhost to get fully informed about what's going on and what the next stage of their plan will be.

 

 

 

Of course this is just an idea I had and you can do whatever you want with it and that's okay with me no matter what your decision is.

[KNakamura]

I think it'd be nice to actually have a quest line to remove the Thieves Guild, yeah. I use Destroy The Thieves Guild! but it's not very good.