[Ideas] Alternative Start System

[Arthmoor]

So. At the risk of having the world and its dogs come down on me for having too many things in the fire now, I've been thinking about doing an alternate start mod for awhile now. Yeah I know, get your other shit done first! I wish it were that simple to drive the idea away to wait for another time :)Anyway, I figure at the very least some brainstorming about what one would like to see in such a mod can't hurt anything. So here's some ideas I had:* Be able to begin the game as a property owner in one of the existing player homes. (it's been done, I know)* Be able to start the game as a trainee/newbie/whatever in one of the guilds. Yes, this would include TG and DB, not just FG and MG.* Be able to start as someone arriving fresh from another province, either by ship or by some other means. Not limited to Anvil/IC/Leyawiin.* Starting as a patron in one of the inns, limited of course so the options don't get crazy.* Start as a gladiator in the Arena.* Start as a bandit or other outcast, somewhere in one of the wilderness bandit camps or something and being a member of the bandit faction - at least long enough to get started.* Start as a necromancer in one of the caves where such people exist.Using OBSE, I could even see it being worth starting within a mod added location such as the Elsweyr province, Bartholm, one of my villages, or even a whole other worldspace.The main quest would of course need to be initiated in some other fashion, and I figured on perhaps having the original prisoner dead somewhere along the way from the IC to Chorrol. Perhaps even killed by you and your group if you chose the bandit or DB option. Maybe even the TG, as a robbery gone horribly wrong.So yeah. Had to get that out there before my brain locked up on the idea. Thoughts?

[Hana]

Dude, it's like you read my mind, it's scary.Just yesterday I was browsing that recent thread on Beth about alternate start mods, when I found out about this one from Cliffworms.None of the others peaked my interest enough to try but this one looks good, and Cliffworms is a trustworthy modder. I've already dl'd it but not installed it yet.Why was I interested? Well, I have been wanting to create new chars for some time now but the thought of having the MQ start immediately just doesn't get me going. This was the other reason I was asking about multiple install options, to just copy my chars because they've already done it. But, if there was an alternate alternate by another trustworthy modder, I'd jump on it. :)All those start location options sound great. If one could start in mod added locations that would be even cooler. I'm not sure about the prisoner guy being dead, isn't he necessary for some quest in the DB (I think)?Would you do new classes too? Arrive by ship as a pirate, start in a player home as a merchant or noble. (Hey, you should do a merchant mod where you own and run a store. I've seen one out there but can't play it, it's not OC compatible. Or add this ability in here.) A necromancer is cool, how about vampire?I honestly don't know much about alternate start mods.... do the gates still open even if you don't start the MQ right away? Is there a way to stop that?But yeah, I have to say it, get your other shit together first, lol.

[Conner]

Arthmoor, you really need to get yourself a to do list for all these ideas so you can basically add ideas as they come up without stopping whichever other project you're already in the middle of. :lol:You already know I've got the Alternative Start by Robert Evrae installed in my copy of the game, so you know I'm into the idea and you've mentioned some extra stuff that sounds good too.Hana, I like the idea of new classes including the option of starting as a vampire. That New Beginnings by Cliffworms looks pretty good, but what was wrong with the one I'd just mentioned?

[Arthmoor]

@Hana: When I mentioned the prisoner guy, that's supposed to be you, not Valen Dreth This way you don't need to go do something cheesy like finding the amulet on a rat or something, or have to force yourself to get arrested in order to trigger the prison part of the main quest.@Conner: Um. I think this just became the todo list... or at least I thought that was partly the point of us starting this site :PI use the same alt start mod now, but it's somewhat limited in where you can start from and it's the one I'm talking about where you have to go find the rat with the amulet in order to be able to pick up the main quest.The whole idea of the dead prisoner along the road somewhere is to keep at least some homage to the original story, but make it feasible for you to pick up the quest. In fact, I figure sticking the poor guy's body somewhere around Fort Ash would fit since it's got goblins and that highwayman who jumps people there, and the bandit camp start option could have it's actual camp there.

[Hana]

Oh, THAT prisoner, LOL. @Conner; I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, it just didn't peak my interest, pretty much for the reasons Samson mentions above. I'm sure it's a perfectly fine and good start mod.And knowing your devious mind (such as turning players into skooma Lords) I'm sure you can think of many many different and interesting ways to start.

[Conner]

I guess it has, Samson. :chuckle:And, yes, it is a bit limited in starting location options along with the oddity of having to retrieve the amulet from the rat. (Why he didn't just give you the amulet to start with so that you could trigger the main quest whenever you were ready for it by some other means... )@Hana: Sorry, guess I interpreted your saying that none of the others piqued your interest as meaning you'd found fault with each of them.

[Dwip]

This is going to be super ignorant, since I don't use alt start mods, but:1. I do not see "Faregyl" anywhere in the title or description of this mod.2. Fear Projlist!3. Cue the ignorant part, but what are the problems with existing alt start mods, and how are you improving upon them?4. ObRandom: Conner has finally passed me in post count. Thank God.

[Arthmoor]

I did mention this is brainstorming for now, yes? No need to worry about it getting in the way of other stuff just yet. I still have one more level in the contest entry to do. Faregyl would be one of the possible start spots though :)I don't really know much about other alt-start mods besides Robert Evrae's. That one is good, but it only lets you arrive in Cyrodiil by way of ship to the IC or Anvil. Leyawiin and Bravil aren't options without a city mod. You do get some decent background choices that have some slight influence on faction relations but you're basically nothing more than a newbie who just arrived. I'd keep something like this around in mine too but would probably drop the faction relations it messes with and I'd skip the "I dreamed of the Emperor's death" way it initiates the main quest.Also, nice to see Civ 5 hasn't completely taken your soul yet

[Dwip]

Ah. Not possible to get the player thrown in jail at some random point to initiate the MQ? Or just don't want to?And call it about 33% Civ V, 33% Trying to read a few thousand pages of Wheel of Time in a month, and 33% new job eating my time. Thank you, new job.

[Hana]

Oh look, a wild Dwip appears!

4. ObRandom: Conner has finally passed me in post count. Thank God.

Not only that, Conner has passed ALL of us in post count, :lol:Back on topic, I think the point of an alternate start is to not have to go through the entire prison scene/tutorial.A quick, easy char creation with delayed MQ start is what I'd love to see, coupled with a believable way to start said MQ when you feel like it.For me, I'd like to try a few race mods and don't want to go through tutorial hassle. This is probably true for 75% of people using alt start mods. Also to create a fast new char for testing purposes, etc so as not to mess with saves of my existing chars.Another suggestion (based on certain feedback about Real Lights); maybe have the player outside in forced clear weather during chargen.

[Arthmoor]

Well I just like to be able to fire off a quick character when needed, the tutorial dungeon is nice and all, but gets old.I'm not sure it would be possible to start chargen outdoors. I suppose that's one limitation that needs to be considered since you have to put the player in the game somewhere before the race menu fires off. With a system like this, other choices need to be made before you can be transplanted to your actual start location.Also, updated OP start locations with Arena gladiator. Dunno why I didn't think of that before

[Conner]

@Dwip:Hey Dwip, nice to see you again. How's that WoT reread going? :)1. Not sure what Faregyl has to do with this one at all other than, as Samson said, a probable starting point option.2. Projlist?3. I believe the point is not so much to fix something that's wrong with the others as to add some options that the others haven't offered so far.4. Um, yes, I do seem to have.. but why "Thank God" over it?I've done my assessment and am hoping for my phone interview soon, but nice job find. @Hana:What can I say, I like posting on forums. ;)"I think the point of an alternate start is to not have to go through the entire prison scene/tutorial."I don't know about the rest or what most people want from alternate starting mods, but that's basically my thing. I've done the tutorial and want to play the game with my next character without having to redo the tutorial each time regardless of whether I'm just trying to create a testing character or a new character on my other computer or just trying out a different race/class combination or whatever. As Samson said, the tutorial dungeon gets old.@Arthmoor:Adding the arena sounds good, and I think you've covered Hana's suggestion about starting outdoors in forced clear weather, but you missed Dwip's question: "Not possible to get the player thrown in jail at some random point to initiate the MQ? Or just don't want to?"

[Arthmoor]

Well I guess it's possible to do that, but that would mean having to go through the tutorial dungeon in order to initiate it that way.I'm not entirely sure if the jail mechanics in the game will even put you in the right cell. (cell as in interior game data, not jail cell)

[Dwip]

Halfway through A Crown of Swords right now. Figure if I keep up my book per 4 days schedule, I'm right on track. I can do it!1. A reminder that he has his Faregyl update to be working on.2. All hail Projlist! Fear its power!Old project list we kept around in a couple of incarnations for Alsherok related stuff.3. Yeah, I figured, but curiosity.4. Felt kinda strange being first in post count. I never am. *shrug*Good luck with the possible interview. They're a good bunch to work for, although all I can say about the training was it was a lot more grueling than I believed previously.Re: Everything else, ah.

[Conner]

@Arthmoor:Hmm, so no way to avoid the tutorial if you still want to start the MQ in the IC jail tunnels, then having the jail tunnels as a start point option sort of defeats the point I suppose.I would imagine that you could tell it which cell to place the character in, no? (Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance of the construction set this way, but y'all already know I don't use it.)@Dwip:Sounds like an almost brutal reading pace, especially towards the latest books, but I suppose if you're skimming as much as reading since you've read it before and are just refreshing your memory of the story anyway...1. Gotcha.2. Ah, understood. A bit like the references to the alsherok mythology that sometimes surface then. ;)3. :nod:4. I see. I'm actually fairly used to being top, or at least close to it, on post count (I may be known in some circles as a post whore, but I'm not admitting to it, but I do really like achieving new post count rank titles... ) so I was a bit surprised that you were so grateful for my having pulled ahead of you. I wasn't too surprised that you were holding post count lead for so long though since you're the main project leader for the majority of the projects being discussed on this site.Thanks, we could really use the extra income this one would provide and the task itself seems pretty easy and fairly fun/interesting. I can well imagine that the training may be a bit more than one would expect, though I suppose I'll have to wait til I get there to know for myself just how much. On the surface it sounds like a really easy task, but even the assessment had a couple that I really had to debate how they should be ranked.

[Hana]

Another one;* Start in any of the churches, maybe a priest/priestess/paladin type in training.

[Conner]

How about allowing one to start in their racial "hometown"? * Altmer (Summerset Isle)* Bosmer (Valenwood)* Dunmer (Morrowind - well, the Eastern Empire anyway)* Khajiit (Elsweyr)* Argonian (Black Marsh)* Orc (Wrothgarian Mountains, Dragontail Mountains, or, most likely, Orsinium)* Nord (Skyrim)* Bretons (High Rock)* Redguard (Hammerfell)* I'm not sure where besides IC would work as "homeland" for Imperials.

[Arthmoor]

Difficult if none of those locations exist :)Elsweyr is only feasible because there's a province mod complete enough to be viable. The Hammerfell mod is the next closest to being useful, but that's a long way off and has several problems with corrupted cells. No other province mod is even close to thinking about being done. Also, Morrowind is an ash heap according to the lore, so starting there doesn't really fit since they've basically been burnt to a crisp as a result of the Oblivion crisis.

[Conner]

Sorry, I'd gotten my racial homeland info from some wiki, but I know that several of those races. if not all of them, do have cities/regions that are basically theirs now in-game which are accessible. For example, we were talking earlier about the racial tension & prejudice of the city between the territories of the Khajiit & Argonians. I know you know the lore far better than me and thus probably know which territories are the right ones already. Honestly, I would expect that there's a vanilla location appropriate to most of the races. Despite my lore ignorance, I still think it's not a bad idea as long as you're looking for extra starting locations anyway.

[Arthmoor]

Are you saying people should actually start in those locations or just have heritage/background information saying they're from those locations?The actual provinces don't exist in Oblivion. As in they're not physically there. They exist in lore, yes, but they're not implemented. Morrowind was trashed in the lore as well, as a result of the crisis. Though I suppose that doesn't technically happen until after you start the game.

[Conner]

No, I'm saying I'd looked up the site references and hadn't realized they didn't exist in the game so instead I'm suggesting folks start out in the city/territory that's most heavily populated by the race they've chosen as an extra starting location option.

[Arthmoor]

That's already somewhat covered in the property owner start, but perhaps not everyone would want the house.... that raises a question of how complex this wants to be since having multiple ways to get to the same city could be a bit of a pain in the ass.

[Conner]

Oh, I guess I hadn't realized it'd be a home ownership in your native racial city, I was thinking you just meant starting the game already owning one of the existing vanilla homes that are available for purchase with the player selecting which one they wanted.I'd think it'd be a matter of either setting a different start point for each starting option set that you're including or just having multiple means of ending up at the same starting location. Of course, not knowing anything about the construction set side of things, I have no idea how complex a script that would need to be either way. From a simple flow chart mentality, you've got several choices and more than one combination lead you back to a given conclusion. I would assume the issue of home ownership could be as simple as determining which start option they want and then asking a final question of are you already a home owner and flagging them with ownership of the local shack if yes and doing nothing if no.

[Dwip]

Variously:- There can be only one start city, and its name is Bywater....no, wait. What about a small island? With like, a tower on it? And a chessboard? Maybe some catacombs. And a ring that lets you see further! That's the ticket!- Re: Start dungeon, I bring it up because I like it as an experience. Also I don't think anybody else's start mod lets you go back through it.This would clearly be a bit of work, but it might be cool to have an option to start the MQ by getting arrested, then going through a non-tutorialified version of that dungeon/quest. Main impediment is the fact that the tutorial quest has some epic scripting. Most of it you can just clone.In theory, it should be possible to hijack the normal prison routine. When tossed in jail, teleport them to the IC prison cell, undo their bounty, etc. Also in theory it should be possible to set this up so that you could make it happen after getting jailed X times or some such.Or not, but that's my best idea.- I have things to say about reading pace, but we have a WoT thread already.

[Arthmoor]

Sheesh. Getting the skeleton of this thing built is proving to be quite the challenge. Figuring out exactly where to surgically disable the start of the main quest is not easy, and woe unto me for wanting so many different start options because the menu for that is going to be insane.