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Bug with Npc: Alva after Laid to Rest?


Trogdor
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For this playthrough I installed yer unofficial skyrim patches. I just completed "Laid to Rest". Usually, I kill Alva while I'm fighting through Movarth's lair, but this time I decided to let her live, because reasons. It wasn't difficult, because she was sleeping while I was killing everyone else in there. I was being stealthy, so she was never alerted/awakened.

 

So I kill Movarth, leave and head back to Morthal. My bags are full and it's the wee hours, so after I wake the Jarl and complete the quest, I decide to sleep in the Inn until the shop opens. When I wake up, Alva is in the inn and starts attacking Lurbuk and the innkeeper!

 

So I say, okay fine, I won't go into the inn. I load a save file and instead of going to the Inn, I sleep in the Jarl's bed. I wake up and leave the hall, Alva is attacking the guards out on the street.

 

So now I'm flustered because I really did want to keep Alva alive this time. I load the earlier save and try traveling to Whiterun and sleeping there for a week. Surely by now, Alva will have settled back in to mortal life. (The UESP states she is supposed to do so)

 

I come back to Morthal, aaaaand... it's under attack by both Alva and a dragon.

 

 

 

I'm too lazy to disable all my other mods and try this 'clean', but I can't imagine why any other mod would be editing this npc...

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Vampires, once they get the itch they just rattle like a change purse.

 

I never knew it was possible to save her. If I don't poke her in her house she ends up getting killed in the lair. It states on the UESP that the USKP makes her hostile when she is in the lair so i'd argue the statement that says otherwise after that is not taking it into account. I'd say this is normal.

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I can confirm that this is as intended: once she goes into the vampire lair, she's supposed to behave like any other random vampire would, there's no way you can realistically keep her alive now, which makes sense given that the Jarl isn't likely to pardon her after her crimes.

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I can confirm that this is as intended: once she goes into the vampire lair, she's supposed to behave like any other random vampire would, there's no way you can realistically keep her alive now, which makes sense given that the Jarl isn't likely to pardon her after her crimes.

I don't see how you "can confirm" that, since I just demonstrated that you can keep her alive. She was sleeping in a bed while I was clearing out the rest of the lair. The other random vampires in there don't sleep.

 

Also, given the fact that she returns to town after the quest is over, and given that her vanilla behavior is to NOT be hostile to the townsfolk, I would say that she is indeed supposed to be able to resume her normal life as a town resident. Indeed, when I left the area and came back an ingame week later, she came out of her house to attack the town.

 

I ended up using setav aggression 0 to cause her to not be hostile, at which point she became a normal town resident again; the other townsfolk and guards were not hostile to her.

 

We could debate the point of whether the Jarl would pardon her. On one hand, when presented with Alva's journal, the Jarl seems none too pleased with her. But on the other hand, once the heat of the moment is past, one would likely realize that all of this is ultimately the doing of Movarth, and that she was acting under his influence, if not control. Her journal makes it pretty clear that she had a severe personality shift once Movarth got to her. Also, Mortal is home to a mage who can cure vampirism..

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I don't see how you "can confirm" that, since I just demonstrated that you can keep her alive. She was sleeping in a bed while I was clearing out the rest of the lair. The other random vampires in there don't sleep.

 

Also, given the fact that she returns to town after the quest is over, and given that her vanilla behavior is to NOT be hostile to the townsfolk, I would say that she is indeed supposed to be able to resume her normal life as a town resident. Indeed, when I left the area and came back an ingame week later, she came out of her house to attack the town.

 

I ended up using setav aggression 0 to cause her to not be hostile, at which point she became a normal town resident again; the other townsfolk and guards were not hostile to her.

 

We could debate the point of whether the Jarl would pardon her. On one hand, when presented with Alva's journal, the Jarl seems none too pleased with her. But on the other hand, once the heat of the moment is past, one would likely realize that all of this is ultimately the doing of Movarth, and that she was acting under his influence, if not control. Her journal makes it pretty clear that she had a severe personality shift once Movarth got to her. Also, Mortal is home to a mage who can cure vampirism..

Interesting, so she returned to town after sleeping in the cave? I think I've seen one other vampire sleep on the bed in there too, I would have to try that quest again though. Might actually be a bug with her returning to town, given what Arth mentioned I'm not sure she should be attempting to  come back in the first place.

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Getting onto the debate of the pardoning: She is still a Vampire, still needs to feed and Morthal is obviously the closest source of human blood so what is to stop her from doing some other grandiose plan involving the townsfolk? So it doesn't even matter if she was influenced or not by Movarth. When you are a Vampire, you become a target. Other Vampires are targets of radiant quests. The Dawnguard and the Vigilants of Stendarr hunt Vampires because they want to protect Tamriel. They are not appreciated because it all boils down to them still feeding on people. Take Sybille Stentor, the court mage of Solitude. She is a vampire and she feeds on the prisoners of Solitude, but not everyone knows it so she has been pardoned because of her service to the High King of Solitude. Though she is still feeding on people, who may have just stolen a cheese wheel to feed their family (which wound them up in prison). Sybille too could go see the Mage in Morthal about curing her vampirism, but she chooses not to, just like Alva. If word got out Sybille was a vampire, the people of Solitude would be in an uproar because she is a vampire. The Jarl choosing not to pardon Alva because she is a vampire is logical, whether or not she was influenced by Movarth, because she will still feed on people.

 

First of all, where are you getting this information that Sybille Stentor has been pardoned? As far as I know, and as far as UESP states, nobody knows she's a vampire, not even the Jarl.

 

Second, if Alva wasn't supposed to be able to survive the events of the purge of Movarth's lair, why does she return to town after the quest is over? If she was just supposed to be considered an enemy from there on, why didn't Bethesda set the cave to be her permanent home, and then be cleaned up when the dungeon resets?

 

I believe the fact that Alva returns to town in the vanilla version of the game is sufficient evidence that Alva was being influenced by Movarth, and is no longer under his influence after his death, and she then wants to return to a normal life in Morthal (Just like Hroggar was under Alva's influence, and the spell is broken after Movarth dies - Presumably, Alva releases him). It seems likely that she would seek out Falion's assistance, or surrender to the Jarl for help and then be referred to Falion.

 

@Arthmoor, I am not 'bending' the quest. I am not doing anything creative. All I did was do the quest, and it happened to be during nighttime hours (a highly likely occurrence considering the earlier stage involving the child's ghost can only be completed at night). I played through the quest as a stealth type character, but I did not need to turn myself invisible to get past her or do anything weird. She was simply sleeping as I killed the other vampires and thralls nearby, and didn't wake up to attack, so I didn't feel the need to go out of my way to kill her. And it was perfectly possible to do this same thing in vanilla.

And so I find your statement a bit unsettling. "She is not intended to return to her normal life, period." Based on what? Because you said so? There is evidence from vanilla that she is; the only reason she doesn't is because of something your mod changes.

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Simple: Based on the fact that she does, and always has, gone totally ape shit once returning to town. That is not a normal response by any means because it will have the effect of dragging guards into the fight and then you have a full on town melee on your hands.

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Simple: Based on the fact that she does, and always has, gone totally ape shit once returning to town. That is not a normal response by any means because it will have the effect of dragging guards into the fight and then you have a full on town melee on your hands.

Er.. I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong. Based on my own recollection of doing this quest in the past, and UESP agrees with me,

 

 

 

If she is not killed in Movarth's Lair at the end of Laid to Rest, she will be found back in Morthal a few days later. Attacking her is considered a crime at this point.

 

It is not listed as a bug, it is listed as a note.

 

She did not 'go totally ape shit once returning to town'. Otherwise, attacking her would not be considered a crime, just like it is not considered a crime when you kill a town npc that you provoked into attacking you through dialogue. The fact that she does 'go apeshit' now is because of the influence of the unofficial skyrim patch, and is not what normally happens in unmodified Skyrim. If you have a legitimate reason for why Alva should not return to Morthal as a resident, such as something in the vanilla CK or official patches that suggests she is either supposed to be killed or otherwise removed from the game at the end of the quest if she doesn't die, then I'd like to hear it.

 

Otherwise, this should be considered a bug with the USKP, and corrected such that if she isn't killed during the events of the quest, she isn't made to be hostile to the town once she returns, and she should probably have her vampiric traits removed at that point.

 

Even ignoring the rationale for saving her that I've been giving, having her return to the town would be preferable anyway, in my opinion, because then you could mark her as having an increased relationship rank with the player (because you saved her from Movarth), and therefore have her be a valid (and inconsequential) target for powering up the Ebony Blade, or perhaps sacrificing to Boethiah. Having her simply go away at the end of the quest seems... wasteful.

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The fact that she does 'go apeshit' now is because of the influence of the unofficial skyrim patch

You're wrong.

Also as KNakamura has stated, UESP is not an authoritative source. They routinely get things wrong, most especially with "confirming" things as bugs or setting them as "notes".

No wiki anywhere for TES games will ever be considered a reliable source. CK data trumps that all day every day. The fact remains that even in an unmodified game if she is not killed, for whatever reason, she returns to town as a hostile NPC and will eventually draw a response from the guards which can lead to a town-wide melee.

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Alva returning to Morthal makes 0 sense. There is quest dialog from many NPCs that suggests otherwise as well. How would her coming back, conveniently loosing her vampire powers and then being all happy happy with the player make sense? And then being accepted back to Morthal after all she had done? Starting a fire that killed 2 people, being a vampire. All that is being over looked because shes a nice person again? Even in the real world that wouldn't happen :P

 

It sounds like you have some infatuation with her almost.

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Without the Unofficial Patch Alva lives benignly in Morthal if she's not killed during MS14; it seems Bethesda expected you to kill her when you break into Hrogar's house (the fact that her crime faction is removed, meaning it isn't a crime to kill her in that context, is a dead giveaway), but while they had her travel to Movarth's Lair if she survives that, they didn't make her hostile nor allied her with the vampires there. That's problematic because we don't want her to go the way of Seridur and be attacked by those who should presumably be her allies. I cannot muster a lucid argument for any subjective reason why she should be attacked at that point, because it leads to the possibility that she could finish Movarth herself, which sort of flies against the "intended path" of the quest.
 
She returns to the town afterwards because her AI package to stay in the lair only lasts until the quest is done (all alias-added AI packages cease when their holding quest finishes).
 
The solution that is most consistent with the way the quest is set up is for Alva to officially become hostile once she is in the lair, and, if she survives, remain there.
 

If you have a legitimate reason for why Alva should not return to Morthal as a resident, such as something in the vanilla CK or official patches that suggests she is either supposed to be killed or otherwise removed from the game at the end of the quest if she doesn't die, then I'd like to hear it.
 
Otherwise, this should be considered a bug with the USKP, and corrected such that if she isn't killed during the events of the quest, she isn't made to be hostile to the town once she returns, and she should probably have her vampiric traits removed at that point.
 
Even ignoring the rationale for saving her that I've been giving, having her return to the town would be preferable anyway, in my opinion, because then you could mark her as having an increased relationship rank with the player (because you saved her from Movarth), and therefore have her be a valid (and inconsequential) target for powering up the Ebony Blade, or perhaps sacrificing to Boethiah. Having her simply go away at the end of the quest seems... wasteful.

 
 
Firstly, attacking her was a crime because the quest script was not properly removing her from her crime faction before you searched Hroggar's house; secondly, you can't remove her "vampiric traits" because keywords and spells in the actor's editor-defined spell list cannot be removed; finally, as increasing relationship ranks requires an explicit script command, making such a change is arguably more invasive than what has been done with regards to Alva at present.

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Without the Unofficial Patch Alva lives benignly in Morthal if she's not killed during MS14;

Except this is wrong, and I've personally tested it before only to come back to a full on city wide melee because she was alive and stepped out where the guards could see her.

Regardless, it's dead obvious if you trace through the sequence of events that she's not intended to come back to town after clearing the lair if you should happen to miss killing her there. So the easiest solution here is just to make sure her AI keeps her there afterward.

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Except this is wrong

I beg to differ.

I have a totally vanilla save from around when 1.3 was released; Alva survived and she's ignored by the guards. In this case, said guards were Stormcloak soldiers due to MQ302, but I don't think that makes much difference.

You can see this yourself with the 1.3 save here; MS14 has been completed but Alva is alive and in Morthal.

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Alva returning to Morthal makes 0 sense. There is quest dialog from many NPCs that suggests otherwise as well. How would her coming back, conveniently loosing her vampire powers and then being all happy happy with the player make sense? And then being accepted back to Morthal after all she had done? Starting a fire that killed 2 people, being a vampire. All that is being over looked because shes a nice person again? Even in the real world that wouldn't happen :P

 

It sounds like you have some infatuation with her almost.

No, I don't have an infatuation with her.  It makes sense for Alva to return to Morthal because, as I've stated is reflected in her journal, the personality of post-vampirism Alva is very different from that of pre-vampirism Alva. To me, what would make 0 sense is if Alva just stayed evil after the death of Movarth. Being turned into a vampire does not turn one evil in and of itself: as we see with Sybille Stentor, she occupies a (mostly) lawful place in society despite her vampirism. I'm convinced that Alva is under Movarth's influence and that her 'evil' tendencies towards the town of Movarth should end once Movarth dies.

And so yes, I believe she would be accepted back to Morthal, because she was being coerced into doing what she did by Movarth, just like Alva was, in turn, coercing Hroggar and what's-her-face. Movarth was ultimately responsible.

She returns to the town afterwards because her AI package to stay in the lair only lasts until the quest is done (all alias-added AI packages cease when their holding quest finishes).

 

The solution that is most consistent with the way the quest is set up is for Alva to officially become hostile once she is in the lair, and, if she survives, remain there.

Fair enough on the first point, but I can't agree with the second point. Why leave her in the cave? Why would she stay there if Movarth is dead? Even if she did want to stay a vampire for some reason, It's not like the townspeople don't know where it is. If you're insistent on not letting her come back to town because you can't remove her vampire spells and keywords, it'd be better to make her a random hostile encounter, or something.

 

I don't like the idea of having a named character with unique dialogue basically just disappear from the plot, either because she gets left in a random cave or because USKP deletes her after the quest is over.

 

And since when do you care about making invasive changes? Vanilla Skyrim behavior is for Ogmund to remain available as a Speech trainer after you rat him out to the Thalmor, but you changed it so that he gets locked up in the keep. Obviously, you felt that change was for the better (since it makes sense and there was evidently recorded dialogue for it) despite the drawback of losing access to a trainer.

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It makes sense for Alva to return to Morthal because, as I've stated is reflected in her journal, the personality of post-vampirism Alva is very different from that of pre-vampirism Alva. To me, what would make 0 sense is if Alva just stayed evil after the death of Movarth. Being turned into a vampire does not turn one evil in and of itself: as we see with Sybille Stentor, she occupies a (mostly) lawful place in society despite her vampirism. I'm convinced that Alva is under Movarth's influence and that her 'evil' tendencies towards the town of Movarth should end once Movarth dies.

The point that other people have been trying to make here is that is there is no evidence in the game to suspect that the developers ever intended for Alva to survive the whole ordeal. There is strong evidence from in-game dialogue and scripts that this was simply an error on the developers' part that she "can" survive and go back to her previous schedule without consequence.

 

I don't like the idea of having a named character with unique dialogue basically just disappear from the plot, either because she gets left in a random cave or because USKP deletes her after the quest is over.

The USKP is purely a bug fixing mod and our personal opinions of what we think should have had been done in the game are irrelevant when compared with solid evidence that points to what the developers intended.

 

And so yes, I believe she would be accepted back to Morthal, because she was being coerced into doing what she did by Movarth, just like Alva was, in turn, coercing Hroggar and what's-her-face. Movarth was ultimately responsible.

Again, there isn't any logical reason or in-game evidence to support the citizens of Morthal accepting her back into their town. Even if they did for some obscure reason (which wouldn't make sense after what she did), it would be an inappropriate stretch to the story's plot to assume that she would suddenly want to be cured of vampirism and everything could just go back to normal with no hard feelings. Movarth may have ultimately been responsible for what happened, but this doesn't automatically make Alva an innocent victim in the eyes of the law and the people of Morthal.

 

And since when do you care about making invasive changes? Vanilla Skyrim behavior is for Ogmund to remain available as a Speech trainer after you rat him out to the Thalmor, but you changed it so that he gets locked up in the keep. Obviously, you felt that change was for the better (since it makes sense and there was evidently recorded dialogue for it) despite the drawback of losing access to a trainer.

This change was supported by in-game evidence (intent). In this case, Bethesda made an mistake (Bug #14139). Ogmund never gets sent to jail because the stage check to determine when it should happen was erroneously pointing to the wrong quest. If you want to have access to him as a trainer simply don't make the choice to turn him into the Thalmor for Talos worship. There are several other speech trainers in the game, so losing access to one due to your choices during a particular quest isn't something that would fall into the category of being an "invasive" change by most.

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  • 7 years later...
On 12/18/2014 at 10:42 AM, garthand said:

I think I've seen one other vampire sleep on the bed in there too

One other vampire NPC may be sleeping in the bed to the left of ("beyond" if approached from Movarth's "throne") Alva's bed. This is fresh in my mind because I just Laid him To Rest about 10 minutes ago before quitting to find out if I could save Alva.

As info, the Flower Girls version of Amorous Adventures (or it may be the similarly-named yet completely different mod "Flower Girls Adventures") features an option to save Alva. It was hit-and-miss (i.e. buggy) the last time I used it a couple of years ago, but it did seem to work about half the time and when it worked, Alva was able to resume her pre-Movarth life in Morthal as a Tavern Wench.

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