Latest update.

[Tinysy]

Since the last update the one which you thought the Wolves were fixed I can confirm they are not. They are back to being silent again. You mentioned in the patch notes that it was fixed due to issues with the Nix Hound. I don't own nor will I ever own the Nix Hound. I don't want to sound entitled but could you put back in the files you removed which fixed the Wolves? I play o Xbox if that helps.

[Arthmoor]

The sounds work. I personally tested on PC with our patched sound files removed. Wolves howled just fine. Though they are at lower volume than I'd personally like. I was also standing next to the falls south of Riverwood and could still hear them over that - barely - which I think is fine.

Since keeping those files actively interferes with official content, we will not be putting them back. While we may not support patching for CC DLCs, we also will not do anything that intentionally blocks the content from working if we can help it.

[alt3rn1ty]

Have a look at this video - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud4srv7p72wof4b/Skyrim Special Edition 29_04_2018 21_07_44.mp4?dl=0

They are working fine on PC Skyrim Special Edition with the latest USSEP installed, which I believe is the same as is uploaded for consoles ..

 

Do you use other mods on your console machine which potentially could be undoing USSEP changes ?

Edit : Ninja'd by Arthmoor

[alt3rn1ty]

O_o @Arthmoor .. Actually, I think this is a problem.

I didnt realise there had been another update to 413b (I still had 413a installed when I made that video)

Just went back to the same save and continued with 4.13b installed, and the wolf in the cage is not howling. I see him raise his snout up to the moon when he is howling, but theres no actual howling sound going on. His anims work fine, that throaty growl still happens, its just the hooOOOOOOWL doesn't.

Here's another video of the same wolf in the cage North East of Riften, after installing 413b, he tries to howl at the start of the video, and again about 3/4 of the way through https://www.dropbox.com/s/586tdf3glkvly8h/Skyrim Special Edition 30_04_2018 18_21_38.mp4?dl=0

You are also getting more reports of this issue on Nexus

[Tinysy]

5 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

O_o @Arthmoor .. Actually, I think this is a problem.

I didnt realise there had been another update to 413b (I still had 413a installed when I made that video)

Just went back to the same save and continued with 4.13b installed, and the wolf in the cage is not howling. I see him raise his snout up to the moon when he is howling, but theres no actual howling sound going on. His anims work fine, that throaty growl still happens, its just the hooOOOOOOWL doesn't.

This right here. I was sat right next to one right on its backside and like this chap I watched it rise its head to do its howl and it doesn't make a sound. I'm sorry to be annoying but this bug above all else is very very annoying.  Thank you fellow gamer for backing me up on this. I've had to stop playing the game because I'm sick of silent attacks when out venturing in the dark.

[Arthmoor]

As i said, they howl for me, but even if they don't for you, we are not going to actively block content in other DLCs from functioning correctly by producing the wrong sounds, and that's been documented with proof already. Nix-Hounds have a set of unique sounds but those get changed back into wolf sounds if we include those animation files.

So at this point I would strongly suggest taking these reports to Bethesda so they can address it properly because it's become clear we cannot without breaking one or the other. People pay for those CC DLCs and they'd have every right to be upset about us breaking that content knowingly.

[alt3rn1ty]

Is this a NR change (non-retroactive) ?

Ok I'm going for a completely new start, nothing installed apart from USSEP 413b, data cleaned (I already know it is, but just stating that will be checked) .. And start a new game, the first wolves I will come across will be just down the road before arriving at Riverwood with Ralof to meet his sister, so its not far to prove a vanilla game with 413b should have howling wolves.

[Tinysy]

4 minutes ago, alt3rn1ty said:

Is this a NR change (non-retroactive) ?

Ok I'm going for a completely new start, nothing installed apart from USSEP 413b, data cleaned (I already know it is, but just stating that will be checked) .. And start a new game, the first wolves I will come across will be just down the road before arriving at Riverwood with Ralof to meet his sister, so its not far to prove a vanilla game with 413b should have howling wolves.

They growl they bark what they don't do is howl. The howl to the moon. They've worked perfectly since I first flagged the issue when SSE first came out and you fine folks fixed it. With the last update they've gone back to how they were.  I understand you not wanting to annoy people who paid £2 for the Nix Hound but what about those of us who paid £40 for the game? Look I'm not moaning at you folks its this bloody bug. How as it gone unnoticed by the quality control and Bethesda for this long? It never got fixed in the original game or the Legendary Edition.

[Arthmoor]

I don't know but in any case you can't expect us to actively cause problems with one set of paid content to satisfy another. The only logical conclusion we can come to at this point is to step out of the way entirely and leave it up to Bethesda to address properly. If it really does not work, then it needs to be brought to their attention so they can fix it.

You'll need to go here: https://help.bethesda.net/app/incident?product=373

Make sure you file it as a bug report and explain it in as much detail as possible. I would strongly recommend you test it entirely with just their files loaded and no mods of any kind so you can be sure it's truly broken in a strictly vanilla game since they will not accept a bug report involving any mods, including USSEP.

[Tinysy]

Thank you. I wasn't aware you could contact them directly like that. I'll do that now. Sorry to be a pain.

[alt3rn1ty]

I have this evening done three run throughs with a fresh new game start, creating my character and going through Helgen for each one :

 

Completely vanilla game, no mods installed, no scripts / no SKSE / no USSEP / nothing in data that is not vanilla - Wolfs do not howl

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ljgktixppb83zq0/Skyrim Special Edition 30_04_2018 23_46_41.mp4?dl=0

Completely vanilla game, with just USSEP 413b installed - Wolfs do not howl

Vanilla game with USSEP 413a installed - Wolfs howl

 

On 4/29/2018 at 9:36 PM, Arthmoor said:

The sounds work. I personally tested on PC with our patched sound files removed. Wolves howled just fine. Though they are at lower volume than I'd personally like. I was also standing next to the falls south of Riverwood and could still hear them over that - barely - which I think is fine.

Since keeping those files actively interferes with official content, we will not be putting them back. While we may not support patching for CC DLCs, we also will not do anything that intentionally blocks the content from working if we can help it.

My bold - Either you had something still installed fixing them (Could the CK being installed influence this?), or they are so quiet you cant hear them without the volume switched way up at max, frightening the neighbours when something else makes a sound, they certainly are not working with just a vanilla setup and the latest game official patch installed and nothing else.

 

Whatever Bethesda is supposed to have fixed in 2016 is no longer fixed, and still needs fixing.

So a suggestion : How about offering the fix file removed from 413b as a separate download loose file fix (optional extra on the USSEP pages) for people who will never use that CC mod ?, that surely solves all cases. Just make sure it has a small description saying not to be used with CC Nix. Even if its exclusive to Nexus so as never to interfere with the official site USSEP

I would have though this CC mod being loaded at FE though would have its files loading much later than USSEP and win anyway. There's probably more to it than I understand. But whatever Bethesda claim to be fixed with these wolves needed better QA, because wolves howling at the moon does not work in vanilla.

[Arthmoor]

1 hour ago, alt3rn1ty said:

Whatever Bethesda is supposed to have fixed in 2016 is no longer fixed, and still needs fixing.

Yes, but what you're not understanding is that we can no longer do that without generating a conflict with official content, that it's a CC DLC isn't relevant. We cannot just issue a patch with files that knowingly block proper function of the Nix-Hound.

So the only viable way forward here is to report it to them using the link I provided. Just make sure you select the "Impact" dropdown first as the website itself is buggy and seems to not recognize a selection if it's the last one you use.

We are not going to get into the habit of issuing special case supplementals for this kind of thing because that's a bottomless pit.

[alt3rn1ty]

I have already submitted a report (another one of quite a few already submitted by me which they have not fixed since 11.11.11).

In the meantime .. Would you mind if I uploaded them independantly as a loose file fix on nexus, because I am pretty sure they are also needed to fix not only the howl, but some behavior glitches I am noticing in game now (if it is only the 9 hkx anim files which presumably have various timing issues aswell as sound linked issues)

I understand your reasons for not doing this, but it just seems such a shame to lose such good work especially when its obvious its still needed.

[Arthmoor]

There really wasn't any work done. What we did was take files from base vanilla Skyrim and override Dawnguard files with them. When SSE came, all we did was run those through the havok conversion tool.

So technically you'd be redistributing unaltered vanilla assets. That's really not a good idea since Bethesda explicitly forbids that. I think the only reason we got away with it for so long was because it was part of a much larger project and nobody really took notice.

So it's up to you if you want to take the chance of a bare bones release of 9 unaltered vanilla animation files or not. But that's another reason we aren't going to be doing it ourselves. Obviously I can't let that be uploaded here since I know what they are.

[alt3rn1ty]

Thanks Arthmoor, the crc on the files is different from vanilla so they are modified, and I have a description which borrows from the changelog, and explains the reasoning ..

 

These were part of the Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch (USSEP), but they had to be removed from that patch project due to them interfering with an official Creation Club Nix Hound mod.

USSEP 4.1.3b and onwards do not include these files anymore due to the unresolvable conflict.

"Wolf bark warnings and several other associated animation idle sounds for wolves were broken due to missing SoundPlay commands in the .hkx files that were lost for some reason when Dawnguard edited the files. 
meshes\actors\canine\animations\idlecombat1.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\aggrowarning1.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attack1.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attack2.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward_large.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward_short.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerstanding.hkx,
meshes\actors\canine\animations\wolf_idle_spice.hkx

(Bug #20041)"

These fixes are at this time still required, solving the games Wolves being unable to make howling noises and various attack / warning sounds.

Do not use these if you also use the CC Nix hound mod.

Install them as loose file replacers with your favourite mod manager.

Credits :
Thanks to sialivi, for providing the original fix files for the Unofficial Patch Project Bug #20041.
Thanks to Arthmoor (UPP Team leader) for allowing the files to be independantly uploaded.
And many thanks to all the community members who contribute to the Unofficial patch.

[alt3rn1ty]

.. And after installing 413b plus the loose fix files everything is right in the world again

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o515sfn9fh2wov0/Skyrim Special Edition 01_05_2018 09_39_58.mp4?dl=0

Uploading these on nexus

[Arthmoor]

You should be aware that the 8 files you listed there don't appear to be affected. It may only be down to the 9th one - meshes\actors\canine\animations\wolf_idle_spice.hkx

It's quite clear from 4.1.3b testing that the barking noises work just fine with the SSE base files and that's what those 8 files were meant to address. I stood close enough to the ones south of Riverwood to cause them to bark aggro warnings at me so I know those work. Plus all the hostile sounds work fine once they attack too. It's only the howls that are broken.

[alt3rn1ty]

I read the report by Sialivi ..

https://afktrack.afkmods.com/index.php?a=issues&i=20041

Quote

Fix: http://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/files/file/1738-fixes-for-20041/

It wasn't just the aggro warning that was broken. Several attack sounds were broken as well. 

.. Which matches the description of the problem in the full changelog, and I think is correct, I have noticed that the timing of some of the other attack sounds can be glitchy, and found during all the testing last night that without the fixes the wolf would do that low / heavy breathing / growl but would not do any others, with all of them installed I am now getting more growls and barks. Will test some more later, it just uploaded and I need to go get the car some new tires first

 

Mod is here https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/16906

Needs a bit of editing

Edit : And I also found where Mythicia77 discovered the issue being related to USSEP https://bethesda.net/community/topic/200256/nix-hound/65?lang=en-US&page=4

From that I gather that the Nix Hounds needs the original vanilla hkx files for the Nix Hounds mod to work correctly .. I dont see where it was discovered that Bethesda fixed anything in 2016, only that restoring the vanilla hkx files makes Nix Hounds work correctly. That does not help USSEP of course, and still leaves us needing the loose file fix for people not using Nix Hounds (however many of them are still needed .. I still need to test all that, but I have certainly noticed one other bark which does not work unless these fix files are installed).

[Tinysy]

5 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

I read the report by Sialivi ..

https://afktrack.afkmods.com/index.php?a=issues&i=20041

.. Which matches the description of the problem in the full changelog, and I think is correct, I have noticed that the timing of some of the other attack sounds can be glitchy, and found during all the testing last night that without the fixes the wolf would do that low / heavy breathing / growl but would not do any others, with all of them installed I am now getting more growls and barks. Will test some more later, it just uploaded and I need to go get the car some new tires first

 

Mod is here https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/16906

Needs a bit of editing

Edit : And I also found where Mythicia77 discovered the issue being related to USSEP https://bethesda.net/community/topic/200256/nix-hound/65?lang=en-US&page=4

From that I gather that the Nix Hounds needs the original vanilla hkx files for the Nix Hounds mod to work correctly .. I dont see where it was discovered that Bethesda fixed anything in 2016, only that restoring the vanilla hkx files makes Nix Hounds work correctly. That does not help USSEP of course, and still leaves us needing the loose file fix for people not using Nix Hounds (however many of them are still needed .. I still need to test all that, but I have certainly noticed one other bark which does not work unless these fix files are installed).

I don't suppose you could put that file up on Beth. Net for us console peasants could you?

[alt3rn1ty]

14 minutes ago, Tinysy said:

I don't suppose you could put that file up on Beth. Net for us console peasants could you?

No sorry, I dont have any console to test mods on that platform, and for similar reasons as Arthmoor I dont wish to put files up on Bethnet which stop Official content from working.

Additionally I do not agree with Bethnet terms and conditions entirely, hate their new forum software, and would need to install and use the buggy CK to make a dummy plugin to load a BSA with just these files included .. I much prefer the loose file replacer for this type of fix, which I could not upload onto Beth net in the same form (you upload mods to Beth net via the CK and a special account you setup associated with your bethesda account .. Tying you in to terms and conditions I want no part of)

Recently I had a bunch of legacy games installed with limited mod setups in support of the Wrye Bash project, but I have had to weed them off the hard drive to free up space to mod the games I want installed .. I also do not wish to go filling it up again with Creation Kits I dont need installed, and the headaches of keeping up to updates (with the game and the CK) when Bethesda want a few more CC mods registered with the game.

[alt3rn1ty]

12 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

You should be aware that the 8 files you listed there don't appear to be affected. It may only be down to the 9th one - meshes\actors\canine\animations\wolf_idle_spice.hkx

It's quite clear from 4.1.3b testing that the barking noises work just fine with the SSE base files and that's what those 8 files were meant to address. I stood close enough to the ones south of Riverwood to cause them to bark aggro warnings at me so I know those work. Plus all the hostile sounds work fine once they attack too. It's only the howls that are broken.

@Arthmoor Having tested them all as separate individual installs .. I agree completely

The only file needed is wolf_idle_spice as you suspected. I have just visited every wolf (and different type of wolf) I could remember the general location of, and with only the wolf_idle_spice file installed (and replaying the same areas with all the rest installed to see if there are any situational differences, then removing the extras again), they all growl, bark, snap, yelp and have slightly varying sounds for different attacks, plus of course the howl.

I am just updating the mod and ditching all the other files.

[alt3rn1ty]

@Arthmoor First I know you must be super busy right now, so get back to this some other time but one last question which is not clear to me with this :

Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater here .. Mythicia77 mentions all of these files from USSEP being in conflict with CC Nix-Hounds :

 

meshes\actors\canine\animations\idlecombat1.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\aggrowarning1.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attack1.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attack2.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward_large.hkx,

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerforward_short.hkx

meshes\actors\canine\animations\attackpowerstanding.hkx

 

Mythicia77 says ..

Quote

Overwriting these with a .bsa containing the versions of the files found in Skyrim - Animations.bsa fixes the issue, and the Nix-Hounds now make the noises they should.

 

But there is no mention of the one file which fixes Wolf howls

meshes\actors\canine\animations\wolf_idle_spice.hkx

 

So did anyone look into leaving the wolf_idle_spice.hkx in the USSEP, does it cause issues on its own with CC Nix-hounds?

 

I wonder because :

a) I am telling people not to use Wolf Howl Fix if they also use CC Nix-Hounds. Its going to cause people to make a choice between having howling wolves, or having CC Nix-Hounds (and does CC Nix hounds itself actually fix Wolf Howling?, because the vanilla game files do not) - If that is the way it is, then fair enough, but from what Mythicia77 said this file is not a part of the problem and I am giving people false advice.

b) If my assumption at a) is wrong, then it may aswell be back in the USSEP and delete the Wolf Animation Sound Fix mod. OR at least I could advise them that they can have both the loose fix and the Nix hounds mod.

 

I dont have any problem keeping Wolf Howl Fix up, it just strikes me that maybe this is a slight missunderstanding / assumption that all of the same files had to go from USSEP, when that one could possibly have remained in.

[Arthmoor]

I don't have the Nix-Hound DLC so I can't check to see if the idle_spice file has any effect on it. If someone does and can verify that including the idle file won't interfere with it we can always put that back on a later update.

[alt3rn1ty]

Okay, I just popped the question over on Mythicias nexus mod page posts.