Soulless Dragons

[Screwball]

Yes, I know this has been raised a million times before, and I know most of the usual responses.

Load order - see below, I don't think I can get it wrong.
Conflicting Mods - hardly enough mods to conflict with anything - not far off a vanilla game.
Adding/removing mods - nope, that load order was in place at the start of the game and hasn't changed since
Continuing a game after testing USKP (2.1.3) Beta - no, a game was saved prior to any testing and any saves - manual, auto or quick - made after that were deleted, and USKP 2.1.2 restored, before continuing with the game.

I have a Save Game which I have tested with multiple configurations of the mods listed below including removing all mods, and that damn dragon will NOT give me a soul.

I also have 4 other savegames showing 4 other dragons at different times in this game and at differing locations who did not provide a soul, so while this particular dragon (it's the one from Eldersblood Peak) is a regular culprit, it is by no means the only one.

I would make a Tracdown entry for this, but there's probably no point as it would likely end up as a "will not fix"

Load Order:-

Update.esm
USKP.esp (2.1.2)
SBBasement.esm
Run For Your Lives.esp (2.0.5)
no killmoves, no killcams, no killbites.esp

 

[Arthmoor]

Something has corrupted the script, at least for the one at Eldersblood Peak. Probably elsewhere too.

 

    getlevel
        GetLevel >> 50.00
    sv
        --- Papyrus ---------------------------------
        dragonactorscript:
            Script state = "deadDisintegrated"
            ::deathFXrange_var = 1024.000000
            ::dragonBreed_var = 0
            ::dragonFOVfx_var = None
            ::forestDragonSkin_var = None
            ::FOVfalloff_var = 1600.000000
            ::FXDragonLandingImpactSet_var = None
            ::FXDragonTailstompImpactSet_var = None
            ::FXDragonTakeoffImpactSet_var = None
            ::knockBackExplosion_var = None
            ::MQkillDragon_var = None
            ::NPCDragonFlyby_var = None
            ::player_var =  (00000014)
            ::SnowDragonSkin_var = None
            ::TundraDragonSkin_var = None
            ::WI_var = None
        MGRitual05DragonScript:
            Script state = ""
            ::MGRitual05Dagger_var = None
            ::Scales_var = None
            doOnce = 0

 

No idea how it may have happened, but none of the dragon actor records are corrupted in the data files. Your save produces a number of Papyrus errors that should have given the problem away.

 

The "NONE" on MQKillDragon and WI mean that this dragon in particular can never give you a soul again, ever. Any other dragon similarly affected won't either.

 

And I've gone back with my own test save to make sure this same dragon gives a soul properly and it does, along with the one I got jumped by in Riverwood as well.

[alt3rn1ty]

Could this be reload corruption ?

 

Something CDCooley mentioned a while ago makes me think these things can happen where recent mods and practices would otherwise not have been reason or cause for any problems to occur ..

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1520418-clearing-memorycache-for-fresh-game-load/#entry24029022

 

Basicly the idea is to prevent reloading of cached corruption you should always load a game from desktop, after quitting the game completely.

[Arthmoor]

I don't think there's any foundation to most of that. The only time I'd consider it a big enough risk to warrant dropping all the way to the desktop is when switching characters. In those instances you don't want even a small trace of data left over from a previous state since it will obviously not match what the new character has done.

 

Regardless, corruption of script properties like this is not something that would happen as that data would be common to all saves made by the game and does not change on these scripts during runtime.

 

I reload games on a regular basis and have thus far only encountered a cached death of an NPC once in Skyrim. Even when reloading from completely different cells. I also doubt this is an intentional game design feature as it would be a known cause for data corruption and you'd be hearing about this on a much larger scale that we see posted about on the forums if it were so widespread. Instead, we have a scattering of forum posts, some Google hits, and no clear examples of exactly what's being retained. That seems more like a loophole in their reload code they haven't plugged up that only triggers under specific conditions.

 

Also never once had an issue with the automatic death reload, for what that's worth.

[Screwball]

Ok, I've just checked the other savegames, and it would appear that I have:-

2 dragons from Eldersblood Peak

2 dragons from Bonestrewn Crest

1 dragon from Dragonstooth Crater

Those other 4 saves may not be of much use as they are after the dragon died, not before (as in the case of the one I posted).

 

I have to say that this is not the first time I've had this problem - the dragon at Mount Anthor has given me this problem in more than one game, but not consistently (in this game that particular dragon is ok, so far).

 

There are enough other dragons around to grab souls from  so it's not of massive importance from the gameplay point of view, but it could be cause of any number of other reports otherwise attributed to load order (or similar) issues.

 

Reading the other replies it would seem that death/reloads is a possible cause? If so then I'll have to try and remember to quit the game (to the desktop) if that happens. It has happened a few times in this game, though not too many, and those dragons were, I think, the cause (though I can't be certain now) of at least some of them. Bears caused the others, early in the game, as per usual

[Arthmoor]

Can't see how death reloads could do that though. As I said, that data wouldn't change between saves because the scripts don't blank properties on the dragons.

 

What's clear is you have data corruption from somewhere. It's not an issue we can fix since the scripts have no defects.

[Leonardo]

Could this be reload corruption ?

 

Something CDCooley mentioned a while ago makes me think these things can happen where recent mods and practices would otherwise not have been reason or cause for any problems to occur ..

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1520418-clearing-memorycache-for-fresh-game-load/#entry24029022

 

Basicly the idea is to prevent reloading of cached corruption you should always load a game from desktop, after quitting the game completely.

I don't think there's any foundation to most of that. The only time I'd consider it a big enough risk to warrant dropping all the way to the desktop is when switching characters. In those instances you don't want even a small trace of data left over from a previous state since it will obviously not match what the new character has done.

I think it might have something to do with it, if a Skyrim booster pack really exist.

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1528422-mystery-steam-update/#entry24191228

[Arthmoor]

What? A booster pack is for those dumb trading cards on Steam. They have nothing to do with CK, game, or Workshop mod updates.

[Screwball]

Can't see how death reloads could do that though. As I said, that data wouldn't change between saves because the scripts don't blank properties on the dragons.

 

What's clear is you have data corruption from somewhere. It's not an issue we can fix since the scripts have no defects.

 

Which kinda leaves me in the lurch as I have no way to determine how that data corruption is occurring. Is there any way to tell it has already happened (prior to a specific dragon failing to provide a soul)? Restoring to a previous save is always an option, but ultimately useless without being able to tell if the problem already exists (in a given save).

 

At least we now know it can happen - would be even better if we knew how it was happening and preferably how to avoid it

 

Not being fixable is why I posted it here rather than cluttering Tracdown with discussions

And on a side issue, it would be nice if there was a "Cannot fix" status for issues. "Will not fix" implies a decision has been made (not to fix) rather than an issue acually not being fixable. There's quite a difference between the two.

[BlackPete]

Strangely, I've never had a problem like that so no clue what would have caused it in your case. I have heard though that if you switch between characters without reloading the game and without cleaning the save folder that it can combine save data between the two and cause weird glitches like that. I'd assume that was what Arthmoor was referring to in one of his post above.

[Screwball]

Nice try BP but that's one possible cause I can definitely discount I only ever play one game at a time - starting clean (no savegames) each time. I may recover earlier saves from the current game occasionally (as in this case to check the earlier saves) but would never load those from a different game. If that were necessary I would exit the game and move the saves (to a temporary folder) for the current game before extracting those from the other game. Likewise when restoring my current game - delete then move the stored savegames back. Cross-contamination of the kind suggested is unlikely in the exteme.

 

What's annoying is that it has been happening for a long time. It is simply getting worse rather than suddenly starting to happen in this one game. Doesn't always happen, so it must be something I'm doing, but I have no clue what that might be.

[VaultDuke]

Are you sure your inis are in pristine condition?

[Screwball]

I think so - I've made very few changes from the default (turning the logging on is one), and certainly none of the changes known to cause issues (like UGrids).

[BlackPete]

Nice try BP but that's one possible cause I can definitely discount I only ever play one game at a time - starting clean (no savegames) each time. I may recover earlier saves from the current game occasionally (as in this case to check the earlier saves) but would never load those from a different game. If that were necessary I would exit the game and move the saves (to a temporary folder) for the current game before extracting those from the other game. Likewise when restoring my current game - delete then move the stored savegames back. Cross-contamination of the kind suggested is unlikely in the exteme.

 

What's annoying is that it has been happening for a long time. It is simply getting worse rather than suddenly starting to happen in this one game. Doesn't always happen, so it must be something I'm doing, but I have no clue what that might be.

Yeah, I figured that you wouldn't have done that.   Anyway, I hope you can figure out what the problem because that sure sounds like a pain.

[Screwball]

It can be a bit of a pain early on in the game, but mostly it's just an irritation - I mean - gimme something for killing that oversized, fire-breathing lizard!

[Screwball]

So just to prove that Skyrim really is a PITA sometimes, I just killed the Eldersblood Peak dragon (new game, USKP 2.1.3) and yep - it gave me a soul!

 

Nothing like consistency eh?

[Arthmoor]

Heh. As long as your Papyrus logs are happy that should cease to be a problem.

[Screwball]

I'll keep an eye on them. I didn't bother with them in the last game but I'm keeping them all for this new game so we'll see.

[BlackPete]

So just to prove that Skyrim really is a PITA sometimes, I just killed the Eldersblood Peak dragon (new game, USKP 2.1.3) and yep - it gave me a soul!

 

Nothing like consistency eh?

Good to hear you got that resolved and unfortunately Skyrim is a    sometimes. Can't count the number of times I've had inconsistent things happen in the game. Kind of scary how things can go wrong when you stop and think about it.

[Screwball]

Avoided rather than resolved. Seems that once it happens in a game that dragon is forever screwed. I had 3 of them (from different "perches") who were soulless.

New game started this morning (after letting Steam verify stuff and me re-extracting all downloaded mods, including the US*P) so we'll see how long it takes before some more sh1t hits the proverbial fan

[lmstearn]

There are a few oddities proposed in Engine Bugs that crop up with in-game loads, but never a soulless dragon. Point a finger at Windows Memory Management first, I think.
Edit: Really Beth should run a poll to determine whether there is a correlation between these types of errors and low/med/high end gaming rigs. The manufacturers would all love this, as the outcome for them would end up something like more gamers spending more money on gaming equipment.

[Deathbydestiny]

I have had many things happen like this. Some of them are reproducible for me even now still that no one else gets. I was reading on AFK recently that scripts and saves and such can suffer from corruption at any moment and that is a scary thought. I run the game on a weak 3 year old gaming laptop so I do I believe some of these issues are related to the fact that I can't process the game as fast as I should be and that has an effect on how things work. That's just plain bad game design in the end, but I guess we all already knew that about Skyrim.