Necromage, can we get it working for undead players?

[PlanB]

If you pay undead, you should benefit from necromage.

Why was this disabled?

[Velinestra]

I agree, the necromage effect seemed intended for vampires. Was it an actual bug?

[Arthmoor]

Yes, because:

Necromage no longer boosts the power of spells and enchantments used on a vampire player.

isn't what it was intended to actually do.

 

Think about it. That means that enemy spells incoming will be boosted in power. That combined with the exploit enabled by it boosting self-cast spells is why it was modified.

[Velinestra]

But the 'exploit' makes sence, if you have an undead body <_<.  You'll notice that noone really agrees when you remove something that is justified in game. The nexus already has a couple of fixes for this particular problem.

[Arthmoor]

Just because a small minority of people disagree and have posted reversal mods for it doesn't invalidate the rightness of the bug itself being fixed.

 

You're also severely limiting your audience if you think the entire world is against this having been fixed, because in the circles I occupy pretty much everyone was like "yep, that's a huge exploit".

[Velinestra]

Just by reading the definition of the perk you should know it's intended to work that way. But even if it is an exploit, it should be up to the player to decide if they want to use them or not. Why dont you release a side version just for bug fixes? I tell you, a lot of people would appreciate that.

[Guest]

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/28781

this mods reverts the USKP change.

 

i support that this change should stay in the uskp. the necromage (e.g. even according to the linked mod's description page) not only affects regualar spells, not even just effects added by enchantments on gear. no, it apparently also enhances effects granted by other perks. of course this only if those perks are added after Necromage. i guess i don't have to explain why this doesn't look anywhere close to an intended feature.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Gruftlord

[Arthmoor]

Can we please not continuously try to retry this case? It isn't really helpful to keep banging on the issue in hopes that continuing to press it after the decision has been made - TWICE - will get the decision reversed.

[XJDHDR]

Sorry to resurrect this topic, but since it is a top search result, I feel that I should refute the reasoning presented here once and for all.

On 1/21/2013 at 11:38 AM, Velinestra said:

Just by reading the definition of the perk you should know it's intended to work that way.

You provided no evidence whatsoever proving this claim, and the evidence actually says the exact opposite.

The perk's description is as follows:

All spells are more effective against undead.

This description refutes your claim in two different ways:

1. It says "All spells are more effective". But Vampires with Necromage don't get just their spells boosted. Enchantments and potions also get affected. Even standing stones, racial abilities and other perks become more powerful as a result of vanilla Necromage's interaction with vampirism. None of these are spells, so there is absolutely no justification for arguing that these getting enhanced is "working as intended".

2. It says 'against undead'. The definition of against in this context is: "in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to." In other words, the perk is supposed to target hostile undead. It goes without saying that the player can't be hostile to him/herself, nor can casting a Heal or Resist X spell on someone be justified as being in opposition to them. As with before, there is no justification in arguing that the spells being more effective in these situations is "working as intended".

 

The problem is even worse for people who admit that vanilla Necromage is an exploit and yet, claim that it's working as intended. The definition of exploit is:

(in a video game) the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.

Enough said!

 

On 1/19/2013 at 12:43 PM, Velinestra said:

You'll notice that noone really agrees when you remove something that is justified in game. The nexus already has a couple of fixes for this particular problem.

I concur with Arthmoor. It is a fringe group that has a problem with the Necromage fix, not "everyone". Case in point, the USSEP currently has 4,119,788 unique downloads on Nexus Mods, whereas the USSEP Necromage fix has 11,202. So by my rough calculations, around 0.3% of USSEP's users have enough of a problem that they downloaded a patch.

 

On 1/21/2013 at 11:38 AM, Velinestra said:

But even if it is an exploit, it should be up to the player to decide if they want to use them or not. Why dont you release a side version just for bug fixes? I tell you, a lot of people would appreciate that.

As per the above, exploits are bugs and so Arthmoor and his team are well within their bounds by patching this bug in Necromage's data. The only thing that might be negotiable is that, as per the description's wording, harmful spells cast on the player should be made more effective.

Now, all of this is merely regarding the facts of the matter. The question of the morality of using exploits in a game is not the topic of anything above, regardless of the persistent Straw Man fallacy I constantly see from opponents of this patch, who ruthlessly lie through their teeth by characterising me and others like me as, "telling others how to play the game," because I committed the 'crime' of proving that their claims were illogical and/or objectively wrong.