Selene310187 Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 or why some mod authors are really offended Please note: My questions for mod authors who receive Donation Points on Nexus Mods can be found at the end of my post. In May 2024, Nexus Mods announced that they would be changing their Donation Points System. The aim is to distribute Donation Points more fairly and prevent abuse of the system. In the past, some mod authors have farmed Donation Points by, for example, splitting their mods into several parts and uploading these parts as new mods. There were other problems with the old system, which are described in detail here. As a countermeasure, Nexus Mods has developed a new interaction-based algorithm for the distribution of Donation Points. They have not disclosed how this works, also to avoid abuse of the Donation Points System. Was has changed: Quote The system no longer works off of Unique Downloads (UDL) over all time but instead on interactions that occur over a month. The culprit: Quote The system has a diminishing returns aspect to it. After a certain number of interactions from the same user across all your mods, the value of these interactions drops drastically. It can and does drop to 0. Source: https://help.nexusmods.com/article/138-donation-points-how-they-work Recently, all mod authors participating in the Donation Points System received their Donation Points reports for June, July and August, which were created with the new algorithm. The result is that some mod authors have lost about a third and others even half or more of their Donation Points after the establishment of the new algorithm - I am also affected. A few mod authors have described their loss of Donation Points in the comments here. However, it should not go unmentioned that there are also mod authors who have received a slight increase in donation points with the new algorithm. In the comments to the linked news articles, I also learned that there are mod authors who have removed their mods from Nexus Mods due to the negative effects of the changes to the Donation Points System. I do not wish to name names at this point. Furthermore, it was claimed that only those whose mods are among the more popular ones secretly benefit from this and that the popularity of the game plays a role. Another claim was that the more you upload, the fewer Donation Points you get. Nexus Mods disputes this claim: Quote You do not earn less Donation Points when you publish new mods. You may end up seeing diminishing returns on the same users downloading all of your mods across a singular month but our position remains the same - if you continue to update mods to make them better and continue to release new and creative mods that encourages engagement on our site then you will continue to be rewarded for that work. Source: pinned comment to this news article: https://www.nexusmods.com/news/15102 But I have had other experiences. According to my report from August, only 17 of my 43 mods received Donation Points (in May, 36 mods received Donation Points). From December 2023 to May 2024, the average number of Donation Points was around 900, in June 287, in July 203 and in August 175. I think something is going wrong. Or what do you think? In order for you to be able to better judge this, I am linking to my Nexus Mods profile here. It's like a slap in the face for me. As if my mods were suddenly worth much less and almost irrelevant. As with the Collections drama a few years ago, I'm faced with the decision of whether to remove my mods from Nexus Mods in protest. I didn't do it then because I didn't want to make it unnecessarily difficult for the users and they weren't responsible for the misery at the time. As far as the current case is concerned, I have not yet made my final decision. At the moment I have only removed a large part of my mods from the Donation Points system to find out how the new algorithm really works. Since I have few Donation Points overall anyway, I basically have nothing to lose. If you receive Donation Points as a mod author on Nexus Mods, what are your experiences with the new algorithm? Do you get more or less Donation Points than before? If the latter is the case, what do you intend to do? Wait and see or join the protest bandwagon (e.g. remove mods from Nexus Mods) or something in between? Translated with DeepL.com (free version) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 Q. What are my experiences with the new algorithm? A: As far as I can tell, nothing about my DP rates changed either way. I got about the same out of them for June, July, and August of 2024 as I did for March, April, and May of 2024. Q. What do I intend to do? A: Right now, nothing. I already removed all of the mods I had up that weren't making enough DP to offset dealing with trolls and toxicity back in July of 2021. It's at that point that the relationship between Nexus and Mod Authors changed from host and author to a business to business style relationship. More people need to realize this and make decisions accordingly. The sooner you treat them as the corporation they've become, the better you'll find your situation to be. Just don't do anything to give them cause to ban you and you should be fine. If they aren't considered profitable enough for the effort you're putting in, demand they take your work down. IMO it's as simple as that. They've made their intentions clear by obliterating any transparency that used to exist between us as clients of the service. They're more like Google now than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr1957 Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 Indeed, they are becoming more like a business than a community/hobby site that partners with both mod authors and mod users. And, as such, it seems they are (as so many businesses seem to do over time) losing/getting out of touch with both the suppliers (the mod authors) and the users (the game players who use those mods), and are mainly attempting to do things so that they are better for Nexus - and not the creators or the end users. Frankly, I would not be surprised if somewhere down the road they introduced some sort of pricing system for downloading certain type of mods and for certain type of users, based upon frequency of use and/or mod popularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scythe Bearer Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 Basically, they have already introduced pricing for download services. Get good speeds for a monthly fee, or get shit speeds for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene310187 Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 The way Dark0ne answered the feedback from mod authors is disconcerting: Quote [...] We haven't been able to answer many questions because, as we stated from the start, we are keeping the algorithm and how a lot of the elements work hidden for reasons we have already shared. I understand some of you don't agree with those reasons and I understand some of you don't agree with the choices we have made but ultimately, the choice was mine and this is the route I have decided to take. I won't be answering the whys of that, mainly because most of the answers I could give would reveal the exact things we have said we don't want to reveal and, frankly, I don't feel I need to explain how money is spent at Nexus Mods to anyone. You might think I should, but I definitely don't and I won't. As we mentioned in the initial news post(s), the project had some key things it needed to achieve, which it has, and the result is and will be a net positive for the majority of mod authors. Unfortunately, there are some outliers, which we understood would always be the case (and communicated as such). But, lest we forget, the old system had some massive downsides which I believe were far more detrimental to the modding ecosystem in the long run than the downsides we have now. Ultimately we are paying out more than we ever have, we continue to reward mod authors who upload to Nexus Mods and the who, the where and the what will remain in our hands as the ones who run the site. If you aren't comfortable with us controlling how we distribute the money this site earns, if you have "trust" issues with us, then I don't recommend using Nexus Mods. I wish you all the best wherever you end up or whatever you end up doing. Source (thread in the General Mod Author Discussion on Nexus Mods): https://forums.nexusmods.com/topic/13499758-donation-points-per-mod-breakdown-removal/?do=findComment&comment=130470360 I think he has misunderstood something. It wasn't about how much money Nexus Mods spends on what. I think many mod authors were concerned with the transparency around the payout system, that we can verify that the distribution of Donation Points is fair. Since they have removed the listing of donation points per mod from the reports, the transparency is not given. So I'm an outlier. I created my mods with a clear conscience and did my best. I don't understand why my efforts are penalized by the system. Yes, I have certain “trust issues” - no wonder after everything that has happened on Nexus Mods, especially in the recent past. But that's no reason for me to leave Nexus Mods. That being said, the impact of my potential departure would only be a drop in the ocean anyway, which I only realized after I created this thread. Even if several major mod authors leave Nexus Mods, it won't change much. We saw that with the introduction of Collections. In the end, Dark0ne will get his way no matter what. He can afford it, the profit proves him right in his eyes. Nexus Mods is the place to go for mods. Nowhere else do mod authors have this reach. If I leave, I'm shooting myself in the foot. In the past, I wouldn't have cared. I just wanted to have fun making mods. Sure, that's still a part of my pursuit, but over the years my focus has changed. I wanted more and more recognition for my work. In hindsight, this thinking has taken more and more of the joy out of this hobby. It even went so far that I felt bad when, contrary to expectations, I didn't receive recognition. I had gradually linked my self-esteem to numbers, be it views, downloads, endorsements or donation points. This is probably also the reason why I work less and less on my projects and publish less and less new mods. It is the fear of being disappointed again and again. I think I still have some work to do on myself, but that's another story. lmstearn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 3 hours ago, Selene310187 said: Nexus Mods is the place to go for mods. Nowhere else do mod authors have this reach. This used to be the case, but is not anymore. Upload to Bethesda.net. You'll have a reach Nexus could only dream of. Nexus still lives in the bubble where modding is a PC-only affair and they think PC modding is a huge portion of the installed userbase. They're wrong, and have been for years. Bethesda's own reported stats have stated that PC users account for 15% of the total number of users out there, and that of those 15%, only 15% of THEM actually use mods at all. We as PC players have never had the influence these sites claim we do. So we should be glad that BGS still supports modding, and Nexus should be grateful that they have enough people coming to them for mods to remain viable at all. They also need to remember that if the BGS community were to abandon them en masse, it wouldn't matter how many other games they have mods for. The site would collapse under its own weight because the money from ad views would dry up. lmstearn, Scythe Bearer and Selene310187 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr1957 Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 Whenever I see or hear someone say something along the lines of "answers I could give would reveal the exact things we have said we don't want to reveal" I immediately think (whether warranted or not) "What are they hiding?" Unless it is some great state secret whereupon the future security of a country hangs in the balance, full transparently is always the way to go. And if an individual finds themselves uncomfortable with that, it may just be because they are doing something wrong. DayDreamer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayDreamer Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 I've never subscribed to the donation points system, myself. But other authors I've helped over time have subscribed me to a portion of their points, without me asking or knowing. It took me forever to figure out where they were coming from.... That said, I just give all my meager points to Elminster, as he had/has a prompt to do that. The first thing I'd ever asked on the bethsoft forum was where is the 2 and 3 way comparison tool? (I've used diff and diff3 nearly my entire programming life.) xEdit is really what made much of my efforts around here possible. Admittedly, I'm not in need of more recognition, as I'm already fairly well known out in the world. But most folks in this realm have no idea, and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghastley Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 10 hours ago, smr1957 said: Whenever I see or hear someone say something along the lines of "answers I could give would reveal the exact things we have said we don't want to reveal" I immediately think (whether warranted or not) "What are they hiding?" Unless it is some great state secret whereupon the future security of a country hangs in the balance, full transparently is always the way to go. And if an individual finds themselves uncomfortable with that, it may just be because they are doing something wrong. The reason for the change was that some authors were gaming the algorithm unfairly. So I am giving the benefit of the doubt here that concealing the new one is an attempt to prevent that. It could also mean that the new formula has similar problems, and they just shut off any help in fixing it, so it could still be a bad decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr1957 Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 14 minutes ago, ghastley said: The reason for the change was that some authors were gaming the algorithm unfairly. So I am giving the benefit of the doubt here that concealing the new one is an attempt to prevent that. It could also mean that the new formula has similar problems, and they just shut off any help in fixing it, so it could still be a bad decision. Entirely possible, ghastley. But to me, Nexus just does a really bad job of explaining things in a clear and understandable manner that fosters trust and confidence - hence why they have lost some credibility as far as I am concerned when it comes to communicating the why of some of the things they do. I can say that the personal interactions I've had with some of the staff have been excellent, so it is not a reflection on other members of Nexus as far as I am concerned, but more in the way some decisions and comments are perceived that come from Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmstearn Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 1 hour ago, smr1957 said: a really bad job of explaining things in a clear and understandable manner that fosters trust and confidence .... in the way some decisions and comments are perceived that come from Robin. Being the Dark One makes all the mystery and obfuscation in-character, no? One possibility the replacement scheme is a Wheel of Fortune spin for the lucky punter modder, graphic taken from the Steam user vault: A wheel with a user interaction crowd pleaser browser history metadata kind of vibe, the workings of which is probably best kept under wraps, in view of a prospective Nexodus. smr1957 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene310187 Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 (edited) I looked at the Donation Points report for September today. My monthly Donation Points have reached less than 170. It's not a record low (it was even lower in 2019), but I'm still shocked. I didn't want to silently accept this situation and eat it up. That's why I've now vented on Nexus Mods in the General Mod Author Discussion as well (previously I had stayed out of the current discussion about Donation Points there). The thread in the General Mod Author Discussion is only for exchanges between authors and not for accepting feedback, as Dark0ne said the other day. Since Nexus Mods is happy with the current changes to the Donation Points system, nothing will change in the Donation Points system in the near future. I guess I will have to accept the current situation and hope for better times. One mod author suggested to another that he could learn modeling or programming if he wanted to get more Donation Points. When I think of my own achievements so far, I can see that there's room for improvement, especially in terms of 3D design - I've neglected that quite a bit in recent years. I have other interests that I prioritize a lot more (currently playing computer games, which was neglected during my last mod creation phase). Edited October 8 by Selene310187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 I wouldn't be too overly concerned about the drop in September's numbers. I've been over my own and there's the same kind of drop every year at this time. Presumably because the kiddies are all back in school by that point and the numbers for downloads (old system) dropped. For the new system, "interactions" or whatever they want to call it now will likely also have dropped. Wait for Christmas break. December seems to be a month where things trend back upward. Over all though, yes, numbers are on the decline and apparently this is so for everyone and we get no indication why because all hail the secret algorithm. Nexus is the Google of modding sites now. Selene310187 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scythe Bearer Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 The owner of NexusMods genuflect to the almighty Pound. NexusMods was once about mod sharing; now, it's about profit. And keep the following in mind. Quote "It is about where the mods are, and not who runs the site. If authors are not uploading their mods, there is no NexusMods." The cure is to not upload new mods on NexusMods, pull your old mods from NexusMods, and put your mods elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lena Wolf Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 (edited) Well, I thought I'd keep quiet but let me give you a counter-weight. My DP has gone up significantly with the new system, even though I have not released any updates or anything significant in that time. My September DP is 6 times my average and nearly double my best ever result. Yes, I do have mostly big mods with many files, but I mod Oblivion! An old game with a sparce user base. The absolute numbers are still insignificantly small, but it is the trend we are discussing here. I am not saying that reduction in DP for other authors is fair; I am only saying that the new algorithm does seem to raise DP for some people. I would sure love to know what they are looking at though. If anyone is interested, my Nexus profile is here: https://next.nexusmods.com/profile/LenaWolfBravil/about-me (And no, I still can't afford that Ferrari. Not even a model of it. Not even a biscuit with my coffee. But I might be able to buy a cup of coffee without adding my own money now.) Edited October 9 by Lena Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene310187 Posted October 24 Author Share Posted October 24 I just did a deep dive into the analytics of my mods: the unique downloads and DP were a lot higher shortly after I released new mods and lot lower in phases without a mod release. Many of my old mods only received a few downloads recently and some of them 0 downloads. As users have downloaded fewer of these mods, there are probably fewer interactions, which in turn has an impact on the DP. What conclusions do I draw from this? I try to upload mods more regularly. It's a bit difficult at the moment as my focus is on playing games and I haven't got the hang of paying equal attention to both yet. At least I have managed to give my attention to a small side project that I will release in the very near future. I'm working on an improved version of an ancient mod from 2008, namely Slof's Elaborate Robe Exnemized. The robe is being adapted to HGEC and I'm ironing out a few bugs that I overlooked back then, such as the misplaced hand texture. I also add a variant of the upper part of the robe, which consists only of the corset and the collar. I will release the new version under the name “Slof's Elaborate Robe for HGEC”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0xC0000005 Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 (edited) On 10/9/2024 at 1:19 PM, Lena Wolf said: My DP has gone up significantly with the new system, even though I have not released any updates or anything significant in that time. Same here. 90% of my DP under the old system appears to have been from a single SSE mod, so I am wondering if my other less popular mods got a boost under the new algorithm. This Nexus news article about the DP system changes has a post by PinkyDude on the second page saying: Quote EDIT: And for any by-passer, I've lost around ~450k DP per month; this doesn't change anything for me If your only motivation for modding was the money, maybe find a new hobby? 🙏 I agree with that sentiment. I create mods to fix issues that I find in games and share them because others may find them useful. My current modding is focused on an old game that has communities outside of the Nexus, and Nexus doesn't list that game. I find it funny that Nexus doesn't have Starfield game keys in their mod author DP store given their heavy focus on Bethesda titles, I thought it would get added when the Starfield CK was released at the latest. Especially since Bethesda's strategy appears to be 'modders will fix the bugs for us'. Edited October 27 by 0xC0000005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurð Stormhand Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 On 10/24/2024 at 10:51 PM, Selene310187 said: I just did a deep dive into the analytics of my mods: the unique downloads and DP were a lot higher shortly after I released new mods and lot lower in phases without a mod release. Many of my old mods only received a few downloads recently and some of them 0 downloads. As users have downloaded fewer of these mods, there are probably fewer interactions, which in turn has an impact on the DP. What conclusions do I draw from this? I try to upload mods more regularly. It's a bit difficult at the moment as my focus is on playing games and I haven't got the hang of paying equal attention to both yet. At least I have managed to give my attention to a small side project that I will release in the very near future. I'm working on an improved version of an ancient mod from 2008, namely Slof's Elaborate Robe Exnemized. The robe is being adapted to HGEC and I'm ironing out a few bugs that I overlooked back then, such as the misplaced hand texture. I also add a variant of the upper part of the robe, which consists only of the corset and the collar. I will release the new version under the name “Slof's Elaborate Robe for HGEC”. This sounds very much like the "Youtube grind" where you have to work out how the algorithm works every few months. I don't think I could cope with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now