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DA14 A Night To Remember, linear or parallel?


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https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:A_Night_To_Remember

The progression is wonky. It seems to be logically parallel; once started, all the background events have already happened and could to be investigated individually.

Instead, some of the quest stages are linear or forgotten. Arriving at Whiterun before Rorikstead causes Ysolda to forcegreet, but disables part of Rorikstead. Then, going to Rorikstead has no forcegreet, but you still have the objective. It actually makes no sense to ask about a goat, as you've never had the forcegreet about the goat. Yet asking still doesn't clear the objective.

Looking at the other setstages, there are similar problems with Witchmist Grove, because you can skip it by pursuading Ysolda, whereas pursuading Senna and Ennis doesn't skip the next step.

There are 2 ways to fix this, and the objective bugs.

  1. Force it to be more linear? (Ysolda doesn't talk until after Senna and Ennis.)
  2. Allow Senna, Ennis, Ysolda, and Moira to proceed in parallel?

I'm in favor of #2, although it is a bit more work.

Currently, there isn't a good way for Morvunskar to happen without doing some of the others. Ysolda is a bottleneck. That could be fixed by having everything be created at the start.

The dialogue hints that it should remain live until you've returned the ring, even after persuading Ysolda to tell you about Morvunskar. So the Witchmist Grove objective needs to stay in the journal until the end. Currently it disappears after persuading Ysolda.

There are other inconsistencies mentioned in the UESP notes. They could be cleaned up as well.

Which should it be: more linear or more parallel?

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As a player, it's an annoying questline from start to finish. The amusement wears thin quickly.
It's irritating that all instances of the items you pick up in the temple of Dibella remain undroppable quest items until the quest is completed, but the hagraven feathers aren't.
There's no consequence to not having any of it in your inventory when reaching Sanguine, though the player dialog remains the same either way.
Personally, I think a good way to resolve it is to make it linear, but with the option to skip any or all of it with high enough persuasion or enough gold.
At any point the player should be able to pay enough to get straight to Movunskar.
However, this may be a problem at Moira, as she is less likely to accept money.

In addition, I'm not sure if it is vanilla or the result of a mod, but having the entire thing between Rorikstead and Witchmist Grove and then getting dumped at the Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath was jarring.
That wasn't even where I talked to Sam. Also, my follower was left in Morvunskar instead of showing up in the tavern with me at the end.

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5 hours ago, Elaura said:

In addition, I'm not sure if it is vanilla or the result of a mod, but having the entire thing between Rorikstead and Witchmist Grove and then getting dumped at the Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath was jarring.
That wasn't even where I talked to Sam. Also, my follower was left in Morvunskar instead of showing up in the tavern with me at the end.

That's another potential bug. I'll look into it. You are supposed to be returned to where you talked to Sam.

Another bug is that the "drunken night of revelry that crossed all of Skyrim" takes no time at all. It should take at least 24 hours.

 

5 hours ago, Elaura said:

Personally, I think a good way to resolve it is to make it linear, but with the option to skip any or all of it with high enough persuasion or enough gold.

That looks like the original intent. USKP made it more parallel, adding a forcegreet package to Ysolda. That's what broke Ennis and the goat. The conditions are wrong. Ysolda shouldn't talk to you about this until you have talked to Ennis.

Also, Ysolda hangs around outdoors until you complete the quest. That's not the original design, and a bit odd.

Moreover, apparently Moira isn't even spawned until you talk to Ysolda (stage 100).

While more parallel makes more logical sense, as all the events have happened "across Skyrim" at quest start, there are a lot of vanilla linear conditions. The current US*P approach is haphazard, and didn't handle all of the possible transitions.

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Turns out the USKP Ysolda changes also broke the cleanup in the temple via stage 50 script fragment (begin talking to Ennis), and various giant issues. An easy fix is to condition the USKP Ysolda package and dialogue >= stage 84, instead of stage 10.

Now to figure out how to make this work retroactively mid-quest.

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To make it work retroactively, copy the StageDone style conditions from the US*P Ysolda changes into the earlier Ennis dialogue and packages, so they operate similarly. Fairly straightforward.

Found an error in the US*P Ysolda forcegreet package conditions. The result of the forcegreet dialogue is stage 100, not 130; 130 is later, transient, and immediately sets stage 135 (which is already correctly checked). Likewise, the forcegreet dialogue conditional should be stage 100, not 150; 150 is the end of the sequence. We really don't want repeated forcegreets. They are flagged as Once, but we know that doesn't always work.

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Retrospectively leading the goat requires a minor script change to DA14SammyScript

!GetOwningQuest().IsStageDone(75) && !GetOwningQuest().IsStageDone(85)

The DA14SammyFollow package is a bit odd, testing for >= 65 and <= 75. There isn't a 65, so == 75 would be sufficient. But in the interest of minimal changes, I've left it alone.

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Detective Sah: hello every one

Just played this now ... I had not done this quest yet so decided to investigate and see whats happening? (last time I played this quest was two years ago)

NOTE: I am level 63, my speech skill tree is 92 and have not been to Rorikstead yet, also has Serana with me because of the Dawnguard quest-line (just got back from the Soul Carin)

Sam's starting location is in Whiterun

I did the drinking contest and ended up in the Temple of Dibella

did both options

1st used the persuasion option and was told to go to Rorikstead (did not have to clean up the junk)

2nd cleaned up all the junk and was told to go to Rorikstead

Went to Rorikstead

1st used the persuasion option and was told to go see Ysolda (I did not have to save the goat)

2nd saved the goat and was told to go see Ysolda

Went to Whiterun and spoke to Ysolda

1st used the persuasion option and was told to go to Morvunskar (did not have to get the wedding ring)

2nd normal dialog options she sends me to Witchmist Grove, after I get the ring she tell me to go to Morvunskar

that is as far as I got will let you know where I re-spawn

REPORT:

1.Once you are told to go see Ysolda her behavior changes and will be waiting regardless of time (day/night) next to the well at the center of Whiterun, she will be there at the same spot when you return with the ring even if its 3am

2.Due to that I don't play this quest I have stumbled lots of times across Witchmist Grove and I have never once found Moira there

3.You cant drop any of the junk items ... the issue is that if you already have 10 giants toes in your inventory before you collect the junk you cant drop or craft any of them either until you finish the quest

4.Started the drinking contest with Sam at 2:00 pm  Middas, 09 Sun's Dawn ... and arrived at the Temple of Dibella at 2:32 pm  Middas, 09 Sun's Dawn

...

hope this helps you ... wish I could talk tech stuff like you guys do but I cant ... sorry

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Quote

It's irritating that all instances of the items you pick up in the temple of Dibella remain undroppable quest items until the quest is completed, but the hagraven feathers aren't.

You're not likely to find anyone who doesn't find that irritating, but it's intentional. The game can't tell the difference between the Alto Wine and Giant Toes that are acquired during the quest and those picked up elsewhere. The items and any duplicates are intentionally held in an alias for the duration of the quest. No idea why the hagraven feathers aren't treated the same way, but maybe it's because picking them up isn't essential to progressing a part of the quest to the next stage.

 

Quote

In addition, I'm not sure if it is vanilla or the result of a mod, but having the entire thing between Rorikstead and Witchmist Grove and then getting dumped at the Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath was jarring.
That wasn't even where I talked to Sam.

A deliberate and specific script call would have to be made in order for the destination marker to change and that's not something that is possible in the vanilla game. The quest keeps track of where you meet Sam the first time (which is the first inn you happen to enter once you've reach level 14). Out of the dozen or so times I've done the quest over the years, never once have I ended up in a different inn at the end.

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30 minutes ago, BlackPete said:

The game can't tell the difference between the Alto Wine and Giant Toes that are acquired during the quest and those picked up elsewhere.

There isn't any Alto Wine. The Wine alias is actually filled with "Holy Water", as is the Water alias. No problem, other than you have to carry 1 extra encumbrance.

The Giant Toe was originally intended to be a Giant's club. It is annoying that they stack with non-quest toes, but that's a game engine issue. There are other items (such as follower bows) that have the same name, yet do not stack.

There are no feathers. They are merely mentioned in the quest note.

37 minutes ago, BlackPete said:

The quest keeps track of where you meet Sam the first time

That is kept in the DA14Start quest. It is supposed to be copied into DA14 quest at the latter start. If the alias doesn't fill due to engine timing issues, you can end up in a radiantly selected Inn. (Has not happened to me, but it looks like the possible explaination.)

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4 hours ago, Sah said:

Once you are told to go see Ysolda her behavior changes and will be waiting regardless of time (day/night) next to the well at the center of Whiterun, she will be there at the same spot when you return with the ring even if its 3am

This is a US*P change. Particularly jarring for those who have married her. Vanilla, she doesn't change behavior, instead you have to find her. Should this be reverted?

4 hours ago, Sah said:

I have stumbled lots of times across Witchmist Grove and I have never once found Moira there

Moira is created as you talk to Isolda. Vanilla, Moira remains forever until killed, and you are supposed to return her ring to Isolda. Isolda says "Don't forget you still owe me!". But there is no way to return the ring after the quest is over, which is a bug.

US*P, if Isolda tells you about Morvunskar, Moira is disabled again and replaced by a generic hagraven. That fixes the bugs.

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There isn't any Alto Wine. The Wine alias is actually filled with "Holy Water", as is the Water alias. No problem, other than you have to carry 1 extra encumbrance.

It used to be Alto Wine that you would pick up in the Temple of Dibella. The patch fixed that several years ago, but I had completely forgotten about it. Due to the same engine issue as the Giant Toes, it would stack with other Alto Wine you picked up for the duration of the quest.

And quest items don't add to your encumbrance. They actually weigh zero despite what the UI shows.

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I realize there is a limit to what USSEP is supposed to change, but if it has already changed Alto Wine to Holy Water, could it not simply change the giant's toe in the Temple to a unique quest item? Giant's pinky toe, perhaps?

As for Ysolda, why not just leave her package out of it, altogether? Simply make her essential until the quest is done?

Also, if a person is using USSEP, they are no longer playing vanilla Skyrim.

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The wine was changed to holy water because it's what the quest called for in Sam's note and the intended item for the purpose was not spawned in. His note clearly lists Giant's Toe, not some made up variety of toe, so that's not something we'd consider a bug.

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On 7/5/2021 at 10:05 PM, Elaura said:

As for Ysolda, why not just leave her package out of it, altogether? Simply make her essential until the quest is done?

There is Ysolda forcegreet dialogue, so it helps to have a forcegreet package to make that happen. She is essential (since official patch 1.5).

There are dependencies in cleaning up the Markarth temple that depend on the Rorikstead stages. Likewise, there is Ennis dialogue conditioned on speaking to Ysolda that makes no sense in any other order than Rorikstead -> Whiterun -> Rorikstead. The quest stages are intended to be mostly linear, within an open world where they can happen partly out of order.

The mistake in US*P is that the forcegreet package is missing a condition that you've talked to Ennis. Ysolda should not be telling you that she's tired of waiting for payment until you've been pointed to her by Ennis. Otherwise you get dangling objectives and leftover persistent objects.

On 7/5/2021 at 10:05 PM, Elaura said:

Also, if a person is using USSEP, they are no longer playing vanilla Skyrim.

US*P is supposed to be only bug fixes: vanilla seemingly intended by the developers as revealed by underlying data. That's why the Alto Wine is replaced by Holy Water. The developers had made a quest Alias_DA14HolyWater, and the note explicitly says "Holy Water". There's an unused potion called Holy Water. My guess is that during development somebody stuck alto wine in the holy water alias as a placeholder until the graphics folks made them the holy water item, then forgot to update the alias. Call it a QA failure.

Skyrim without US*P isn't worth playing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/4/2021 at 11:19 AM, DayDreamer said:

Snip

Another bug is that the "drunken night of revelry that crossed all of Skyrim" takes no time at all. It should take at least 24 hours.

Snip

Late to the party again:facepalm:

Just wanted to add my agreement and say that for everything to have happened….and the travel in between our episodes of bad behaviour, you’d need more like 3 solid days.  In my original journal I can only excuse the shenanigans by saying, Sam as it turns out is a Daedric Prince and has the power to bend time as required, fitting it all into a single minute of real time (not a very good excuse tho’ if you apply too much in depth thought to it huh).

 

On 7/8/2021 at 11:08 PM, DayDreamer said:

Snip

Skyrim without US*P isn't worth playing.

Is that so?

You realise that many console players enjoyed Skyrim from release in Nov 2011 for about four years on purely vanilla….because there were no mods for us.  Millions (sic) of us thought it well worth playing back in the day hmmm.  

Adella

 

 

 

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On 7/17/2021 at 7:58 AM, Adella said:

You realise that many console players enjoyed Skyrim from release in Nov 2011 for about four years on purely vanilla….because there were no mods for us.  Millions (sic) of us thought it well worth playing back in the day hmmm.

It is very sad that so many console players are willing to buy a game where the world gradually becomes perpetually bare and desolate, NPCs don't leave their homes, weapon racks and other activities don't work, many quests don't run properly, and the save games bloat so that eventually the game won't play anymore.

If I'd known about the vast number of bugs, I'd never have bought the game. Because of the press reported bugs, I'd delayed buying the game until Feb 2012, expecting that the bugs would be fixed by then -- never imagining that Bethesda would actually add more bugs breaking things that already worked....

To be honest, if I'd not invested so much time into US*P, I'd not still be reporting and fixing bugs. At some point, responsibility to the community became more important than the game itself.

Someday, I hope to finish a run-through of the game. The last best try died after 500+ hours and 8901 saves. So far, 220 hours and 6326 saves.

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