Jump to content

NPCs not running conversation scenes


jbrianj

Recommended Posts

Hi. I'm having a bug where NPCs often completely stop using their greetings, or say anything that they're supposed to say. Like merchants at stands who don't say anything anymore. It feels like it's some dialogue script that wants to fire, but for some reason, the script is not reaching its conditions to fire. I think it has to do with NPC-to-NPC dialogue. Whenever the NPC has this weird issue, they won't say anything when I get near them. This same thing happens when an NPC goes to some other NPC to talk to eachother, which is why I think this has to be the reason.

A good example is Madesi not saying anything at this stand in Riften anymore. He still has his regular schedule where he goes home eventually, but he never says anything anymore, or say anything when I get near him.


It's not a huge problem, but breaks all idle dialogue of that character. And the longer my save goes, the more and more characters it starts to happen to, for no apparent reason. 

There's one fix that works that fixes the issue, and that's punching said NPC in the face, taking the 40 bounty, and then stopping fighting (hoping the NPC stops too). That fixes all the issues. For some reason its like a plague that spreads to more and more NPCs that have NPC-to-NPC conversations.

  0  0     Skyrim.esm
  1  1     Update.esm
  2  2     Dawnguard.esm
  3  3     HearthFires.esm
  4  4     Dragonborn.esm
  5  5     ccBGSSSE001-Fish.esm
254 FE   0 ccQDRSSE001-SurvivalMode.esl
254 FE   1 ccBGSSSE037-Curios.esl
  6  6     ccBGSSSE025-AdvDSGS.esm
254 FE   2 UHDAP - MusicHQ.esp
254 FE   3 UHDAP - en0.esp
254 FE   4 UHDAP - en1.esp
254 FE   5 UHDAP - en2.esp
254 FE   6 UHDAP - en3.esp
254 FE   7 UHDAP - en4.esp
  7  7     Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp
  8  8     SkyUI_SE.esp
  9  9     Gildergreen Regrown.esp
254 FE   8 CBBE.esp
 10  a     Cutting Room Floor.esp
 11  b     Run For Your Lives.esp
 12  c     Bring Out Your Dead.esp
 13  d     The Paarthurnax Dilemma.esp
254 FE   9 UnleveledUniques.esp
 14  e     Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
 

These are the only mods I have. Besides that I use SSE Engine Fixes and Bug Fixes SSE SKSE plugins. All up-to-date.
I checked if UHDAP was the issue, but it is not. I made a new save, started a patron of inn AS-LAL in Riften. Did the introductory quest with Brynjolf, and suddenly now its some other people at the inn that are "stuck" in this way. Like I said: Giving them a punch and then sheathing my fists makes them behave normally again. My question is: Is this bug fixable, or is this an unresolved engine issue? And is it possible to workaround this weird issue, without punching them and gaining a bounty?

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try placing USSEP (7) above the UHDP esp's. USSEP is an esp flagged as esm, while the UHDAP esp are flagged as esl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Altbert said:

Try placing USSEP (7) above the UHDP esp's. USSEP is an esp flagged as esm, while the UHDAP esp are flagged as esl.

That will undo all sound fixes made by USSEP. The audio files are ESL-tagged ESP's specifically because they are dummy plugins. They contain no actual data other than loading the bsa files. But they use an esp so that USSEP correctly overrides sound files with fixes. The mod page specifically says USSEP has to be loaded after it. And... they're sound files, nothing else. No script files, nothing. Sound files (FUZ).

I had to manually do it since LOOT removed UHDAP from their masterlist due to questioning whether UHDAP is legal due to using PS4 files as a source. So before they removed the masterlist entry, it was already loading before USSEP (https://github.com/loot/skyrimse/issues/785)

Plus I already said in OP that disabling UHDAP altogether does not fix anything either.

I also highly doubt it would be an issue, since this seems to be a script/AI-related issue.

The issue also persists through the save file, which only fortifies my thinking that it could be AI/script related.

Punching bugged npcs seems to reset and/or override their AI/running script, which fixes the issue and the NPC behavior. They also run conversation scenes again.

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could you provide a link to the UHDAP mod. Only thing I could think of at the moment is to extract the BSA file and install the contents as loose files and ditch the esp's if possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Altbert said:

Could you provide a link to the UHDAP mod. Only thing I could think of at the moment is to extract the BSA file and install the contents as loose files and ditch the esp's if possible.

Then USSEP would not override the vanilla audio anymore and all sound fixes would disappear. Loose files overwrite BSA's. At the FAQ section it explains perfectly why these need to be overrided by USSEP, why there are 5 dummy plugins, and why they are not loose files. And last: BSA's together with accompanying ESP's will load into the game WAY faster than loose files. https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/18115

Because they're vanilla files, I could also register the BSA's to my Skyrim.ini, because then USSEP will still load after UHDAP, but that would not help my issue. There's nothing about UHDAP that could cause these issues.

 

And as you might see, all the other mods are from AFKMods (Arthmoor) besides a simple ESL-tagged .esp I made using xEdit where I edited the leveled lists of some unique gear to only contain the strongest version.

It could be an issue with SSE Engine Fixes or Bug Fixes SSE (both with default ini settings), but it's hard to find the actual reason, because not even turning on all game logging seems to help me pinpoint the reason of this happening.

I'm asking someone more experienced to help me pinpoint the issue, and a potential fix or workaround that doesn't involve aggressive behavior incurring bounties. This ain't Drunken Wrestlers 2.

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the UHDAP link. I have read the full description, but I'm afraid I can't be of any further help. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figured out something:

The bug happens when NPC's want to have a conversation together, but end up just staring at each other, the conversation never fires. The moment they are supposed to go and sleep, their AI does make them go to bed. This is the moment the bug stays "permanent".
They were supposed to have a conversation, but it never actually happens. This happens all over the game and is not bound by specific NPC's.

Reloading the save fixes the issue: The conversation fires properly and they continue behaving normally. Sometimes going far away from the location, and then coming back before their AI makes them go to bed somehow makes the conversation fire properly and the bug doesn't appear.

I think the reason why punching helps is that any combat overrides conversation scenes, and stops the AI/script that makes them talk to each other.

So one thing's for sure: The bug is definitely in NPC-to-NPC conversation scenes! Something is preventing them to fire properly all the time. 

It's really hard to have it happen consistently: It seems to happen at random. E.G: Whenever I have a save where the bug happens, reloading that same save doesn't always make the same bug appear.

The only mod I could imagine *could* cause issues is Fuz Ro D-oh. But this mod is a soft requirement for any mod that adds unvoiced dialogues: including Alternate Start & The Paarthunax Dilemma. It could be that this mod creates a regression that stops the engine from playing the sound files properly, which in turn makes the engine not fire the conversation properly? See I have no knowledge of engine behavior, so I'm going by what sounds logical to me, not by hard proof. But I do remember there was this bug in vanilla Skyrim that caused quest problems with Esbern in the Ratway due to missing audio files. So something similar could happen if some audio file does not play properly.

Is there a way to debug this by logging? I can attach my save and proper modlist if need be.
 

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_O2IAQkU34
https://pastebin.com/twmxwQQV

This is a video of what exactly is happening, with the accompanying storymanager log. Papyrus log does not show anything useful.

The video is a bit long since the guards refused to arrest me so I had to just leave and go back, but let me explain:

1) In the video, Carlotta and Ysolda are supposed to have a conversation at some point in time.
2) The conversation never actually fired, causing them to bug out (These were already bugged out before I started logging, because its hard to reproduce the issue).
3) Their AI still works, they still go to bed, they still come back to where they are supposed to be. They just never fire Hello or Dialogue scenes. They are completely silent unless spoken to manually.
4) Also Carlotta is supposed to have idle merchant chatter, as you can see in the video, she never does.
5) Then I punch either Carlotta or Ysolda: This somehow fixes the issue (after all the guards and NPC's stop being angry with me of course)
6) Carlotta and Ysolda are now both unglitched, I only had to punch one of them in the head, but both NPC's are "unglitched": They talk to eachother again, Carlotta's idle merchant chatter fires again, and all is fine again.

It seems that triggering the "quest" "WIAssaultRemember" unglitches the affected NPC's and eventually causes the dialogue quest to fire.
"[03/19/2023 - 12:59:45AM] -----Quest 'DialogueWhiterunCarlottaYsoldaScene1' passed (ate event)" and then the problem is suddenly fixed. Also note how the location of this is on a seemingly odd position in the log file.

 

It's not just this specific dialogue quest that gets stuck. It can happen to seemingly every NPC-NPC dialogue quest that exists. In Inn's, Market's, etc...

I hope this information is much more useful.

I attached the bugged save where you can reproduce the "fix" (sadly not what caused them to be in this state) by punching ysolda or carlotta. I also attached the esp with edits to Leveled lists I made (because you can't download it) so that you can load a complete load order if you want to help me debug this.

Save158_214E1688_0_46656C69636961_WhiterunWorld_002140_20230319002556_15_1.skse Save158_214E1688_0_46656C69636961_WhiterunWorld_002140_20230319002556_15_1.ess

UnleveledUniques.esp

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a lot of experience with the Story Manager. Can't say, what the exact problem is with your modlist, if any at all, I'm on LE. Maybe my observations help you a step forward.

If you use Actor Hello Events attached to the SM, Actor Dialogue Events with the same NPCs will not fire.

If there is a dialogue quest in the SM that has priority higher than 52, all other dialogue quests will not fire: vanilla dialogue quests are set to 50 priority, all of them.

If there are custom branches attached to the Actor Dialogue Events in the SM that are not put below vanilla branches and are not flagged as shares event, SM will not work correctly at all.

Actor Dialogue Events will only fire, if the NPCs are near enough each other and not in idle state. If they are playing animations like cooking or sweeping they are busy and scenes will not trigger. If you use animation mods for npcs, these animations may prevent the scenes to trigger.

If you had any mods installed that alter behavior of npcs, your save will be corrupt after uninstalling - sometimes your vanilla Skyrim will be corrupt, too.

It is extremely tedious to find these failures. It is much faster to deactivate all your mods that alter or add npcs, start a new game and see if it works. Then enable one mod and try again and do that with every one you use. Unfortunately the SM may work at the beginning and then stops after some ingame days for no reason - so it's very important to test with only clean saves. Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Tasheni said:

I have a lot of experience with the Story Manager. Can't say, what the exact problem is with your modlist, if any at all, I'm on LE. Maybe my observations help you a step forward.

If you use Actor Hello Events attached to the SM, Actor Dialogue Events with the same NPCs will not fire.

If there is a dialogue quest in the SM that has priority higher than 52, all other dialogue quests will not fire: vanilla dialogue quests are set to 50 priority, all of them.

If there are custom branches attached to the Actor Dialogue Events in the SM that are not put below vanilla branches and are not flagged as shares event, SM will not work correctly at all.

Actor Dialogue Events will only fire, if the NPCs are near enough each other and not in idle state. If they are playing animations like cooking or sweeping they are busy and scenes will not trigger. If you use animation mods for npcs, these animations may prevent the scenes to trigger.

If you had any mods installed that alter behavior of npcs, your save will be corrupt after uninstalling - sometimes your vanilla Skyrim will be corrupt, too.

It is extremely tedious to find these failures. It is much faster to deactivate all your mods that alter or add npcs, start a new game and see if it works. Then enable one mod and try again and do that with every one you use. Unfortunately the SM may work at the beginning and then stops after some ingame days for no reason - so it's very important to test with only clean saves. Good luck.

I have never changed or added any mods since I started playing this save. So this advice is kinda useless to me. The fact that punching the npcs fixes the issue, makes me believe that the issue is due to SM priority.

 

If you look at my modlist, you see that I only use UHDAP and Arthmoor's mods together with SSE Engine Fixes and an esp I made with xEdit with a few changes to leveled lists of unique weaponry and armor (so i can get the strongest version in my save regardless of level)

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just curious, not reloading save games in-gameHad weird stuff going on when objects and activity in the reloaded cells are not as they should be, although haven't encountered precisely this issue. Sometimes you can "get away with it", depending on what hasn't been barfed, mostly, the rest of the game will be impacted in some way or other.

Plenty of reading here:

An idea is to try modifying the SM priority values, could be done through the console, a mod is better, and one which resets as many SM settings as possible, in case some have been damaged in the save.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never. I know about the bugs that happen after reloading save. Every single time I died (which wasn't very often) I restarted the game. There's nothing that could've gone wrong: I made a small simple vanilla modpack with Arthmoor mods and some higher res audio, and SSE Engine Fixes (with default settings). And a simple plugin I made myself unlevelling unique rewards.

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fine, had to ask it, and apologies for asking things like that, UDHAP being such a large mod, quite a bit of RAM is required to open the BSA's, and the voice files have to match the vanilla ones. With idle conversations, the engine may have a different way of opening the BSA's, and does it more frequently, for whatever reason.

Installed a soundcard over here, because of issues with the onboard chip, but often check the unused sound devices are disabled, because WU turns them on. Often use Skyrim Performance Monitor to check resource usage, and run the game at high performance,  (PrgLnch can adjust the power plan for playing.)

About the posted log, curious how many of these there are: "has already been run and cannot be run again"

Quote

----Quest 'FreeformRiverwood01' under Node '' has already been run and cannot be run again.

Haven't seen that one before, is it standard on a vanilla game?

All the same, it would be interesting if this can be repro'd on a vanilla + USSEP game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, lmstearn said:

Fine, had to ask it, and apologies for asking things like that, UDHAP being such a large mod, quite a bit of RAM is required to open the BSA's, and the voice files have to match the vanilla ones. With idle conversations, the engine may have a different way of opening the BSA's, and does it more frequently, for whatever reason.

Installed a soundcard over here, because of issues with the onboard chip, but often check the unused sound devices are disabled, because WU turns them on. Often use Skyrim Performance Monitor to check resource usage, and run the game at high performance,  (PrgLnch can adjust the power plan for playing.)

About the posted log, curious how many of these there are: "has already been run and cannot be run again"

Haven't seen that one before, is it standard on a vanilla game?

All the same, it would be interesting if this can be repro'd on a vanilla + USSEP game.

Yeah, that's what looked strange to me too. Because that quest was the first quest I finished on my save. But this was with AS-LAL + USSEP + CRF. I don't know why the Story Manager calls for this quest while in Whiterun, having completed FreeformRiverwood01(that's the love letter quest) 50+ real life hours before. The other mods do not touch that quest at all. Yet SM keeps calling for it. Maybe a bug with AS-LAL?

Edited by jbrianj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...