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Stormcloak or Imperial


ikonomov

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In all my previous playthroughs I've never given much thought about which side of the war to support.  On the surface it is easy to see the Imperials as being the "evil" side, chopping heads left and right and signing the White-Gold Concordat that prohibits the worship of Talos.  In my current game that I've recently started I've decided to give it a bit more thought, looking at the pros and cons of both sides.  Here is where I'm at so far:

  1. Although the Emperor signed it, it is the Thalmor that are trying to establish a domination over other races which doesn't seem likely to stop with the Empire.  They are the force that ultimately needs to be fought against and the question arises what would be more capable of opposing them, broken nations or a strong united Empire with a superb military.  There is also the possibility that after the Empire is broken into smaller nations the Thalmor will decide to leave those nations alone once they feel their supremacy is not threatened anymore, but again, it doesn't seem likely.  Whatever the outcome of the civil war the peace will not last, but a Stormcloak win will most likely result in a second civil war, this time more bloody involving a full Imperial Legion further weakening the Empire.  It will also serve to further delay the conflict with the Thalmor that seems to be coming one way or another as nobody in the Empire is happy with the White-Gold Concordat, it is just harder for the Nordic culture, identifying more closely with the worship of Talos. 
  2. Although not perfect, the Empire seems to be very tolerant of all races and very competent at governing given their long history.
  3. Maybe helping the Stormcloaks is only a temporary peace for Skyrim, yet regardless you can't help but feel doing the right thing helping the Nords oppose the tyranny of the Thalmor allowing them to worship their god and hero Talos.
  4. Although possibly lacking the needed qualities to be a great ruler of Skyrim given his intolerance for other races, Ulfric is still a war hero that feels wrong having to kill at the end of the civil war.  Tulius, on the other hand, is easier to see as a villain that also happens to wear a really nice armor. :)
  5. Except for the lazy and moral lacking Jarl of Falkreath, although his paranoid uncle might not be much better, a strong case can be made that the rest of the Jarls that support the Imperials are at least as good and in many cases better or at least more likable candidates than the Jarls that support the Stormcloaks.
    • Ulfric should be the Jarl of Windhelm, but Brunwulf is likely also a worthy choice, being a war hero himself and also more tolerant towards the many races that live there.
    • Skald in Dawnstar seems too arrogant.
    • It doesn't seem like a good idea to allow the Silver Blood family to gain even more power over Markarth than what they already have.
    • Although not much different than in Markarth when it comes to having a single corrupt family having control over a city, Laila is portrayed to lack much intelligence, seemingly already the perfect puppet of Maven Black-Briar in Riften.
    • Balgruuf the Greater in Whiterun looks to be exactly that, a great leader.
    • In Winterhold the Jarl with the lack of prejudice towards mages and the college in order to understand that they are not responsible for the collapse of the city is the one that supports the Imperials.

Of course it all comes down to roleplay and I suspect to a certain degree political views :evil:, but upon some deeper analysis I just can't help but appreciate the depth and richness that Bethesda have given us when it comes to this choice in the game.  What do you guys think and which side do you take as part of the Civil War?

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I want to freely follow the superstition of my choosing, and that includes the worship of Talos.  The Altermeri Dominion and the Empire must be driven from Skyrim.   

Even if that allows Maven Blackbrair to becomes Jarl of The Rift and turn the Hold into one big criminal enterprise?

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35 minutes ago, Scythe Bearer said:

Even if that allows Maven Blackbrair to becomes Jarl of The Rift and turn the Hold into one big criminal enterprise. 

That's mostly what happens if the Imperials win.  With the Stormcloaks in control of the Rift Laila remains as the Jarl, although I suppose it doesn't much matter as Riften is one big criminal enterprise either way. lol

The more I think about this the more I'm starting to think that trying to make the choice into a rational one is the wrong way to go here.  I'll probably go with the Stormcloaks as I've previously done and enjoy the game for what it is, a game! XD

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My own stand point has varied over time.

From the beginning, the player is encouraged to side with the Stormcloaks, because you are not exactly inclined to side with a faction that would have you beheaded just because it is the most convenient at the moment, what with you not being on their list of criminals. On the other hand, Ulfric is really not a very sympathic leader and lacks considerable foresight. His immediate and biggest concern is his personal grudge against Elenwen and the ban on Talos worship. But he does not see the bigger picture - division is death, and the ban on Talos worship is surely only temporary until the Thalmor have been knocked back. Yet Ulfric has no patience for a plan to form to overthrow the Thalmor, he simply wants to beat on the elves here and now and use his Thu'um as an unfair advantage to get his way. He is for certain no politician, but rather hot-headed and outspoken albeit somewhat eloquently.

In the end, I view the situation as being everyone against the Thalmor. Not everyone and the Nords against the Thalmor. But it doesn't stop me from playing either side depending on what my mood dictates. Lately, I've chosen the truce instead, handing Markarth to the Stormcloaks and Riften to the Empire seeing as those cities are in fact run by these factions anyway. The Silverbloods and Blackbriar families are both a bunch of bullies to an equal extent.

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Stormcloaks. 100%. Every time.

Having said that, I have played maybe twice as an Imperial and I felt so dirty while doing it. :lol:

Long live Ulfric! :dancing:

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On 7/4/2022 at 3:16 PM, ikonomov said:

I just can't help but appreciate the depth and richness that Bethesda have given us when it comes to this choice in the game.  What do you guys think and which side do take as part of the Civil War?

I agree with this. 

Unlike most players, apparently, I approach this question from a roleplaying perspective.  I let my character decide.  Some have favored the Imperials, some the Stormcloaks.  Personally I loathe empires but I don't let that affect my roleplaying.  I believe that roleplaying should reflect the character, not the player, whenever possible.  The character I'm currently planning to play will most likely side with the Empire.  

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More of my characters sided with the Imperials than the Stormcloaks. Some have remained neutral. My last old-Skyrim character, A Breton who married Serana, modded out the need to do Season unending. 

The side my character chooses is based on my roleplay for that character. Personally I don't like siding against Jarl Balgruuf. I don't like visiting the room where he is after a Stormcloak victory. I feel like a traitor.

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10 hours ago, Fenrus said:

Personally I don't like siding against Jarl Balgruuf. I don't like visiting the room where he is after a Stormcloak victory. I feel like a traitor.

Yep, at the end of the day I think that's my biggest problem siding with Ulfric, betraying Balgruuf.  For me he is one of the more likable characters in the game who's also tied to the main quest.

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6 hours ago, ikonomov said:

Yep, at the end of the day I think that's my biggest problem siding with Ulfric, betraying Balgruuf.  For me he is one of the more likable characters in the game who's also tied to the main quest.

This mod might be to your liking then. (Jarl Balgruuf Dilemma)

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One time I made a Stormcloak character years ago. I wished my character could have given Balgruuf the axe and continued the civil war without starting the main quest. Balgruuf would have been replaced by the new Jarl who would give the same quests if the main quest was started. (This means Beth would have to do the same quests/dialog twice. I could see why they wouldn't want to do this.)

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4 hours ago, Fenrus said:

I wished my character could have given Balgruuf the axe and continued the civil war without starting the main quest. 

I had an identical experience with my first Stormcloak character and it is my biggest criticism of Skyrim.   In my opinion, one quest line should never require another quest line.  This constraint feels especially out of place in a Bethesda Games Studios game, where freedom is a selling point. 

While I'm on the subject I also dislike the fact that the Dragonborn main quest requires the Skyrim main quest.  That approach may work with studios who produce linear, story-driven games but, in my opinion, a Bethesda  DLC should never have its main quest as a prerequisite.

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59 minutes ago, Pseron Wyrd said:

I had an identical experience with my first Stormcloak character and it is my biggest criticism of Skyrim.   In my opinion, one quest line should never require another quest line.  This constraint feels especially out of place in a Bethesda Games Studios game, where freedom is a selling point. 

While I'm on the subject I also dislike the fact that the Dragonborn main quest requires the Skyrim main quest.  That approach may work with studios who produce linear, story-driven games but, in my opinion, a Bethesda  DLC should never have its main quest as a prerequisite.

I agree freedom of playstyle is a main reason to play a Beth game but it is nice to have some take it or leave it goal. what would be nice would be if the main quest line develops on its own if the player does not follow it. you hear rumours and tales of the quest as back ground to your own story.

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3 hours ago, Pseron Wyrd said:

I had an identical experience with my first Stormcloak character and it is my biggest criticism of Skyrim.   In my opinion, one quest line should never require another quest line.  This constraint feels especially out of place in a Bethesda Games Studios game, where freedom is a selling point. 

While I'm on the subject I also dislike the fact that the Dragonborn main quest requires the Skyrim main quest.  That approach may work with studios who produce linear, story-driven games but, in my opinion, a Bethesda  DLC should never have its main quest as a prerequisite.

Hah, I guess I have to disagree with you guys as I don't mind some overlap in the quests, especially when it's the main quest.  I do appreciate the freedom given in Skyrim, but I actually wish that more quests were linked together rather than having them separate.  To get the full experience of playing the game I think most people will most likely finish the major sidequests like Companions and Dark Brotherhood anyways, but it would be nice if they were somehow tied to the main quest.  The Thives Guild for example already is, but I wouldn't mind if it wasn't just the first quest for the Thives Guild, but a bit further along. Having the freedom to choose feels an essential part of playing an RPG game and developing a character, so I think it has to be a balance where the player doesn't feel forced but rather engulfed into a rich plot and a well developed world.

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For me it's only an issue if I play a Nord, otherwise I always support the Empire if anyone.  For Nords I've gone about 50/50 on who I support, though truth be told I generally don't do the war.  It's only that infuriating 'Seasons Unending' quest that makes no sense what-so-ever than makes me want to occasionally do it.  I mean seriously what does me being a Dragonborn have anything to do with me choosing who keeps what cities especially when I already proven I don't care about the war by ignoring it up to that point.  In one play-through my Orc was so ticked off he just left the meeting and said to hell with it let the dragons kill them all and just stopped doing the MQ altogether.

I personally hated the fact that in FO4 the faction questlines were tied completely to the MQ.  I also much prefer them as separate things.  Why, because I role-play.  I would never play a character that joins more than one faction anyway and when I do join one I don't want to be forced to become their leader.  FO4 at least did it right with the BoS and RR, that's the way the faction questline should end, with you just being a high ranking 'free agent' who can do whatever you want because ... that's exactly what you're going to do anyway.  But many times I'll start up a character in Skyrim just to role-play a rogue, or warrior, etc., and nothing more.  They join the thieves guild (or whatever), clean it up, and role-play done (again wish the Nightingale thing wasn't forced on you and wish you didn't have to be guild leader.  High ranking thief who took missions I wanted and nothing more would be more realistic and easier to role-play).

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I get the sense that the writers viewed the civil war questline less as a side story, and more as a b-plot to the main quest, with the two questlines running parallel to each other and acting as, more-or-less, one single questline, but for whatever reason (most likely time constraints forcing them to axe most of the Civil War-related content), they weren't able to integrate them as tightly as they wanted, resulting in a final product where what should've been an a-plot-b-plot story might as well be two completely separate stories.

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On 7/7/2022 at 12:03 AM, SkyLover said:

I get the sense that the writers viewed the civil war questline less as a side story, and more as a b-plot to the main quest, with the two questlines running parallel to each other and acting as, more-or-less, one single questline, but for whatever reason (most likely time constraints forcing them to axe most of the Civil War-related content), they weren't able to integrate them as tightly as they wanted, resulting in a final product where what should've been an a-plot-b-plot story might as well be two completely separate stories.

There are mods that effect the civi war in one way or another but I’ve never used any of them as I rarely join either side. The only reason I follow the Empire guy is that I can then loot the storm cloak armor and weapons. I do not like the Empire armor at all.

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I don't even really care that much about the big overhaul mods for the Civil War questline, 'cause I'm not really into war games. The only reason I even have Open Civil War (and previously Civil War Overhaul) installed is because I want to experience the cut Markarth and Riften sieges, and literally nobody thought of making a CW mod that does that, and only that.

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The Imperials definitely treat the deposed jarls much better than the Stormcloaks do. If the Empire wins, those jarls are found in the Palace of Kings, seated at the grand buffet table in the company of the new jarl, Brunwulf Free-winter. If the Stormcloaks wins, the old jarls will have been hidden away in a small basement chamber of the Blue Palace. I would have thought that Jarl Elisif could have given her allies a wee bit better accomodations, but perhaps she was "convinced" not to by one of the Stormcloaks. Who is to say?

There is also the thing about the Stormcloaks that, if they win, our friend Ralof back in Riverwood will tell us that he has heard some things about Ullfric that he doesn't like. The Stormcloak-supporting jarl of Riften, Laila Law-giver, is no big fan of his person either, but does agree with his cause.

I think Ulfric's personality is very much on display at the Greybeard council in Season Unending. He almost cannot control his temper and practically flies in the Empire's face right away despite in fact expressing insecurity when sitting safely on his throne. And regardless of the outcome, he is first to leave with Galmar at his side. I do appreciate the sound of his voice, just not his handling of things. And not to forget; Galmar Stone-fist is the metaphorical whipping carriage driver, Ulfric the gallopping horse. Without Galmar to inflame his passions, I'm not sure Ulfric would quite bite, as he barks.

Like some others, I also feel bad about deposing Balgruuf in Whiterun. Though I wouldn't mind sending Irileth along with Delphine to Oblivion - two women whose inflated sense of Self is very off-putting in my humble opinion. But that is a completely different topic.

As a side note, both Hadvar and Legate Rikke express that they still worship Talos. I believe many Nords do. Even Delphine, who is a Breton, says 'Talos guide you' to us at one point. To me at least, it is clear that the ban on Talos worship is expected by many of the Empire's citizens to be temporal. If only Ulfric's party would bide their times like the rest of the Empire and then assist in hitting the Thalmor in a combined effort come the right moment. Instead of sowing discord.

Just played through the whole thing again for giggles, and this is definitely where I politically stand for now. In Tamriel...

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  • 1 month later...

About Stormcloaks,  here's some quotes of a discussion I read:  With highlight for my own emphasis.  

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I saw no evidence they planned to deport every non-Nord in Skyrim and as long as you're not a whiny Dunmer who is living for free in Windhelm while Nords starve in the icy streets [In Windhelm, the Dunmer complain yet they have free food and housing whereas the beggars there are Nords), they seem to have no problem with non-Nords whatsoever. Furthermore unlike the Empire with their torture chambers and the Thalmor with their everything, the Stormcloaks are pretty straightforward in their hostilities. They just want the Thalmor to GTFO and the Empire is getting in the way of that.

They're in a shitty situation for sure. But their choices in dealing with Ulfric are to a) Kill off the Stormcloak rebellion which is the entire reason the Thalmor instigated and sustained the rebels in the first place. Or b) find a pretext in which to amicably withdraw from Skyrim, allowing them to become independent like Hammerfell. Unlike Hammerfell, Skyrim is far less accessible to the Somerset Isles and its likely the Aldmeri Dominion is still too weak to resume hostilities.

Aldmeri diplomats will sputter and threaten war but it's still a far better outcome than killing Nords because Thalmor told them to. In the end both Skyrim and Hammerfell are not going to refuse Imperial invitations to smash some Aldmeri heads in. But if the Empire kills off the Stormcloaks, there will be a lot of resentment and even more rebellions later on. The Thalmor will guarantee it. The Empire will never regain its strength while the Thalmor have free passage through its territories.

 

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The game sets you on the warpath if you're an Imperial where as what the game should have done was give you some options so your idea of the Empire withdrawing is a neat idea but it can not be practiced. So Bethesda may make it canon in their next sequel one side fought the other to death or none of it mattered and both sides somehow form a bizarre truce no matter what the players choice was. Hard to say how it would result even if we go off the lore alone.

What would be interesting is if maybe the Empire as you said picked up on the Aldemeri's weakness and chose to attack them instead. For sure killing more Nords won't help the Empire but as you may know many Nords line the Empire's ranks so while the poster boy of the Empire would be... well the Empire, surely the Nords would see it was their own neighbors also fighting against them.

I also liked how you pointed out how the Nords ultimately don't mind the Dunmer. After watching Zaric's video on Windhelm politics (why is that a thing, lol) the Nords should actually be good friends with the Dunmer as the Dunmer would have been responsible for helping Ulfric build up his city and both have common enemies with the Empire. Some people do just look at the Nords and see Nazis and not a more nuanced perspective of the war for sure.

 

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There's a lot that a player on either side, granted more agency could accomplish but of course that would be very complicated to implement. The Civil War we ended up with was already stripped down to the bones sadly. Mostly I would've liked far more Thalmor-related content, but it was probably intentional for them to be mysterious and very easy to forget.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Legion has been strong enough to kick out the Aldmeri Dominion for some time but haven't been able to due to Thalmor spies causing trouble and manipulating corrupt Imperial bureaucracy. They've had a number of decades to worm their way in and as we see they're pretty good at it. Perhaps they've even managed to sway some of the Elder Council to their side.

Probably most of the Windhelm Nords and most of the Dunmer refugees get along relatively fine. It's just the few vocal agitators on both sides that draw everyone else in to the trouble, just like real life. The Dunmer really do have a good thing going though, Windhelm looks like a very poor old city largely in disrepair. No doubt Ulfric could make good use of the Snow Quarter but he chooses to uphold an ancient promise over housing his own Nord citizens. Meanwhile the Dunmer understandably hate living in frigid Windhelm but they're not exactly swimming in prospects elsewhere. Imperial-backed Solitude is hardly knocking down the gates begging to take the refugees in despite being far more affluent (and sunny.)

 

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Yeah the Thalmor would be an interesting antagonist to explore, since they were more like shadow villains behind the curtain in Skyrim. That is all well but once players come to realize who the real enemy is they won't care about petty fighting between Imperials or Stormcloaks. If only the Bethesda team were able to make a richer civil war in the time they were given.

Who knows. The Thalmor could very well be running the Empire and it would be interesting to see if the Empire becomes a shadow of its former self and has to regain its lost power. An interesting idea to explore for sure.

Good point, not even the great Empire is willingly consuming the refugees. Again, lost potential for the game to explore. The politics of the region could have given more nuance to the game.

 

 

Over my decade of playing Skyrim I've gone through cycles.

  • 1st Cycle:  Always Stormcloaks.  Because the Empire are assholes who knew I shouldn't be executed for no reason but were going to kill me anyway, damn scumbags. 
  • 2nd Cycle:  Always Empire.  Because order and structure are important and this rebellion delays the Empire's focus against the Thalmor who benefit from the rebellion.  And they have better uniforms. 
  • 3rd Cycle:  Always Stormcloaks.  Because the Empire caved too hard to unreasonable demands and is allowing the best of humanity to be executed and persecuted while the literal god of humanity is erased by elven supremacists, in doing so they betrayed humanity and personally betrayed the Nords (And the Redguards who became independent already).   Because Skyrim deserves independence for all the same reasons Hammerfell earned theirs.   Because the Thalmor may think they benefit from the civil war, but they only benefit from the chaos during the civil war.  A Stormcloak victory would be the worst outcome for the Thalmor. 

 

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I am likely in the minority here but long ago I chose each side once just to see the changes and was underwhelmed for both. Ever since then I never picked a side and always mediated a truce to progress the main quest. Like keeping the issue unresolved as the world to me feels better and more alive with the war still going

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2 hours ago, JRICH604 said:

I am likely in the minority here but long ago I chose each side once just to see the changes and was underwhelmed for both. Ever since then I never picked a side and always mediated a truce to progress the main quest. Like keeping the issue unresolved as the world to me feels better and more alive with the war still going

Unfortunately, one must eventually take a side in the war against the Empire and their Thalmor puppet masters ;).  It is a sad but true state that in order to get all shouts, one must pick a side and undertake the Jagged Crown quest.  This quest is required to enter the depths of Korvanjund and obtain the instance of the Slow Time Shout therein. 

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I have played both sides and most recently have favoured the Imperials more not because i especially like them but feel they are ultimately the lesser of two evils for Tamriel.

One of the things I like best about the game is that to me there are no black and white answers, the choices that you face in many respects mirror real life in that there are many shades of grey in given situations. Religious tolerance versus death for innocents, is the price worth paying, one of many questions i ask myself. That is if i choose to think deeply about the game, or i could just go on a rampage and not care............

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  • 1 month later...

Naturally, you have to play through once on each side to find out what story Beth wrote. Then you can choose with all the facts known. 

I came to the position that I believed the Emperor would much rather the conflict be kept simmering and undecided, as the Thalmor wouldn’t take any action until it came to some conclusion. So the Civil War was buying time for the Empire to rebuild. Titus could keep Tullius low on resources, so he couldn’t defeat the Stormcloaks, but give him just enough to keep them contained. Actually defeating the Stormcloaks would probably alienate all the Nords, whereas a “law and order” action to keep them quiet would not.

Ulfric appears to be motivated by personal interests, rather than any real patriotism, so I could never side with him. Tullius is following orders, but does not know what considerations are behind them. You can support him without wanting him to win, if you believe that a victory is not the desirable outcome.

So my vote is for status quo, and my games leave the CW alone, except when interrupting it because of dragons. 

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