Drengin Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Hello. I've run into a strange conflict between a mod I'm working on and Alternate Start. The problem is this: NPCs cannot cross the border from cell -18, 24 to -18, 25 (the area between the Solitude Watchtower and the City Gate). In the opposite direction they go without problems. If I disable Alternate Start or raise it above my mod, the problem disappears. The trick is that Alternate Start doesn't edit either these two cells or those adjacent to them. The only thing I could find: The NAVI:00012FB4 record in Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp contains [NAVM:00105E9A] at -18,24. I was surprised that CK adds information about cells that are not modified by the plugin into the Navigation Mesh Info Map. Could this cause a conflict between mods and break the NavMesh? Sorry for bad English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 It's possible, but manually editing that record would be even more disastrous so I'll have to see if I can coax it into not saving that information in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drengin Posted January 17, 2022 Author Share Posted January 17, 2022 It looks like your mod is not at fault. Apparently the Creation Kit always adds the following NAVMs to the NAVI record of all plugins that edit Navmesh: [NAVM:00079BBF] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of WhiterunExterior17 [CELL:00009639] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 5,-4)) [NAVM:0010377B] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of DawnstarWesternMineExterior [CELL:00008ED5] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 6,24)) [NAVM:000B87DF] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of WindhelmAttackStart05 [CELL:0000B51D] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 33,5)) [NAVM:000E88CC] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of [CELL:000093DE] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at -9,14)) [NAVM:00105E9A] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of SolitudeExterior03 [CELL:0000929D] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at -18,24)) [NAVM:00103120] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of [CELL:0000BC8E] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 42,-22)) [NAVM:000A3F44] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of RoriksteadEdge [CELL:00009577] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at -22,2)) [NAVM:001030CB] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of SalviusFarmExterior01 [CELL:00007178] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at -40,1)) [NAVM:00098776] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of HelgenExterior [CELL:0000980B] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 4,-19)) [NAVM:00100F4B] (in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of WinterholdExterior01 [CELL:00008EA2] (in Tamriel "Skyrim" [WRLD:0000003C] at 26,25)) They are added twice: to NVMI and to "NavMesh Tree?". Perhaps this feature makes all mods that edit NavMesh in these cells expose to implicit, hard-to-detect conflicts. Unfortunately, SSEEdit doesn't show these kinds of conflicts. In those manuals on resolving conflicts, editing/cleaning navmesh that I've read, this problem is not covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 NAVI isn't a record that needs conflict resolution since the data is merged during runtime loading. It doesn't make a lot of sense to include the data into a mod that doesn't touch those cells but it also should not be causing any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drengin Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 Is there any guarantee that in very rare, specific cases, the merging cannot fail? I did a little experiment to figure out how to fix my NavMesh: A demonstrator of how to mutilate a NavMesh to cause a bug that can't be. This changes the NavMesh around the corner of the cells -17,24 -17,25 -18,24 -18,25, similar to my mod's NavMesh. CK Pathing Test passed. SSEEdit finds no errors. Before testing, I created a new profile. Load order: Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp Demonstrator.esp Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp I have hired Stenvar, and with him I teleport to Katla's Farm. I'm going in the direction of the Lower Gate. Stenwar gets stuck on the border of cells -18, 24 and -18, 25. If I go to the right to the Khajiit camp, then Stenvar can sometimes bypass the problem area through cell -17,24. He very rarely succeeds. I test again, lowering the Demonstrator in the bottom of Load order. Stenvar no longer has trouble with pathfinding. How can this be interpreted and fixed? I'm sorry for the late reply and thank you for your patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drengin Posted January 21, 2022 Author Share Posted January 21, 2022 Can these fields be merged? Of course not. The last loaded mod overwrites them. https://imgur.com/a/lA57cXj Therefore, the hidden conflict described in the post above is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subhuman Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Can these fields be merged? Of course not. The last loaded mod overwrites them. No, it doesn't. As stated previously, subsequent NAVI records do not overwite previous ones. They merge in memory at game load. But... I think you need to look at other problems with the NavMesh at that intersection. I can stuff an entire chicken under it, with room to spare, at one corner of the triangle, but then the linked edge is entirely below ground. Pathfinding is not going to be happy with that situation. The usual outcome is NPCs can travel in one direction across it, but not the other. Which is what you're describing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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