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Skyrim Anniversary Edition and You


Arthmoor

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17 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

It's not exactly a secret that he did in fact write the Survival DLC.

Quite true, but as to any actual official confirmation of the fact, there is none - or, as I stated - at least none that I have ever seen (others may be privy to information that I am not).  So, without actual links to a verified statement by either Chesko or Bethesda to that effect, it is still really only an assumption - even if it is a well founded one.  Regardless, the history of survival modes in so very many games, as you stated, makes it somewhat ludicrous for some to speak of Bethesda "stealing" it, whether it is actually Chesko's work or not.  If it truly is, then it can be assumed that he did it in cooperation with Bethesda, and if not, the commonality across so many games by so many companies of similar type survival modes really makes it a moot point.  But, as we have all seen, that does not keep people from making those types of statements.

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Regardless of whether you believe he wrote it or not, Bethesda paid for the implementation they now have as DLC. So there was no theft involved at any level. The Creation Club is a paid development contract system.

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Not sure if all of this talk about "stealing mods" came from my comment but I would like to explain what I mean:

I didn't mean to infer the actual theft of a mod - but a re-branding of mods that are "Forever-Free" that are in-fact, not free. I used "Survival Mode" as an example because of the several popular original mods that added such a feature - were then "simplified" by survival mode and then re-released.

While I guess this is semantics for some - I believe that the original authors for the inspirations should usually be included with whichever mod in question uses.

Based on what was stated - the reference I used (Survival Mode) was in-fact written by the mod-author I had in mind.

So on that point, thanks - I was wrong in my assumption that it was "hijacked by Bethesda" - Instead Bethesda realized the marketability of that kind of mod and helped support the mod-author. So - there was no harm or foul done.

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It would still be hard to support the claim that it's even a rebranding of an "original" idea that began as a free mod since that mode was definitely in Fallout 4 as a standard feature, and NV has "hardcore" as one of its features, and so on. If anything, Frostfall was a modder's reimplementation of the same idea in Skyrim form. Surival modes have been a thing in games for as long as there have been games. It's not an original idea, no matter who creates a specific implementation of it. There's an entire genre of games based around survival as a mechanic even.

Basically all you have with "Survival Mode" in SE is a contractor who was hired to fulfill a job they pitched to the company in a way that didn't simply constitute renaming their prior work. It would be like if I had pitched an alternative start system to the company that took a different approach than my Live Another Life mod and it was accepted as a contract DLC. I would not have then been allowed to simply obfuscate filenames and reupload my existing work.

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Last Seed | Skyrim Survival, this is from Chesko's own web site the mod mentioned looks and sounds a lot like the creation club survival mode, but as you say not a definitive statement or proof that Chesko directly penned the final mod. If nothing else it is interesting.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I ended up upgrading to 1.6x getting the CC content, then using the Steam "Wayback Machine" to revert to 1.5.97 executables and data so I could keep using the Netscript mod(s) as they aren't updated and don't sound like they will be anytime soon. 

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Then you are running your game in a broken state because the new content requires the updated executable. Any mods at this stage of things that aren't being updated that need to be should be replaced with something else.

For .NET, you'll want to replace it with this:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/59596

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For what it's worth supposedly Chesko once said that he didn't make Survival Mode.

Regardless, "Survival Mode" is extremely generic and (as has been mentioned) it was in Fallout 4 before Frostfall was created.

As to using the old EXE and the new content - as Arthmoor says, it's basically a broken game courting instability.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I hear what you're saying Arthmoor but some of these SKSE plugins are an absolute must for me. I get that some authors just don't want to bother with updating their mod, again, because the Address Library was supposed to take care of that problem permanently, right up until Bethesda thought it would be a great idea to make a major change right out of the blue. I mean right before that Bethesda decided to update Fallout 3 thus breaking tons of mods that will not get fixed because the authors have moved on. And who wants to update a mod to the latest version when we don't know when/if Bethesda will decide to make another major update that would again break mods and render the Address Library pointless. So you have some people that roll back to 1.5.97 because it works with all of the mods that they use. That's it, it isn't 'sticking it to the man' or anything as silly as that, it's simply that 1.5.97 works with all of the mods that they want to use. I'm trying to say, in a round about way and as nicely as possible that people are using any alternative method that they can to get their hands on the 1.5.97 version of USSEP and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

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I have no desire to turn this into any sort of debate or to move off the topic, as this has been discussed in great enough detail as it is, but, simply put, people had plenty of advance notice (literally months) of the pending update from version 1.5.97 to 1.6+, and should have known - as with all past version updates for SSE - to take the proper precautions necessary if they did not wish their game to update.  These precautions were and are posted in numerous well known places, and are very easy to do.  So, if a person did not take these easy to find and simple precautions and had their game update, they have no one to blame but themselves.  It is not, and should not be, the responsibly of either individual mod authors or game design studios to provide support for no longer current or officially supported versions of the game.

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Bethesda can't catch a break.  When they don't update their games, people complain.  But when they do update their games, people complain anyway. 

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true enough there is a sell by date on everything, at a certain point things get to outdated to function in the same way they did when they were created.

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2 hours ago, Pseron Wyrd said:

Bethesda can't catch a break.  When they don't update their games, people complain.  But when they do update their games, people complain anyway. 

I genuinely don't get it either. In every other major modding community I know of, users and modders alike welcome updates from the company and move to update their mods in short order. Supporting old copies of games is almost unheard of outside of BGS modding.

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Well, in my experience, not just in gaming, but in outside endeavors, I have found that many people just simply like to complain.  Go figure:shrug:

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I have always been one to support the bleeding edge, as for me it boils down to a preference for preventative service versus corrective service.  Preventative service is filling the tank at a quarter full whereas corrective service is waiting until the tank is empty. 

Besides, in my experience, early adapters tend to get better support than late adapters.  Also, early adapters tend to get more opportunities for input to future directions while late adapters are generally viewed as the tail trying to wag the dog. 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

The claims about so many key mods not being updated is highly exaggerated. The fact is that pretty much everything has been at this point that needs to be. With the noted exception of that .NET Framework one.

IMO that's not justification enough to hold the entire community back and pretend that 1.6 doesn't exist. For whatever bizarre reason the BGS modding community is the only one I know of that does this on a regular basis. No other community hems and haws so badly about updates to the games they mod, and they certainly would be shocked to know that so many BGS mod users are demanding support for something that's already over 6 months past its shelf life.

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I don't demand support for old game versions from anyone, and I have infact encouraged the authors who decide to only support 1.6 to not give in to the demands of supporting 1.5. 1.6 really is the only way forward.

Every now and then I go through my SKSE plugins to see if I can update to 1.6 yet, and every time I find too many mods that aren't updated and don't have comparable alternatives. The last time I did this was a few weeks ago, and as much as I would like to make the jump to 1.6, looking at it objectively I would just lose quite a lot of functionality while simultaneously gaining very little in return, so right now it doesn't really make sense. Indeed, quite many of these are made by meh321 and rely on .NET Script Framework, No Grass In Objects being the major one.

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Nexus has a Requirements tab, and I wish that it had a version check as well.

Admittedly, I'd updated to SE 1.6 as soon as SSE Engine Fixes was available. That allowed testing.

But had to stop playing until Scrambled Bugs was eventually updated in March 2022. It is no longer dependent on .NET Script Framework, and as a bonus loads much faster.

There is simply a huge amount of unsupported cruft that doesn't play well with others. A fact of life.

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Can we please not get caught up in the whole Nexus thing again? Everyone knows what they did. They know what they did. They even know that the things they told us were not accurate as well.

Nexus archiving files against the will of mod authors IS an issue that still needs to be corrected.

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The thing is, most of us were told back before Nexus went public with this that it was basically going to be a collections setup just like the Steam Workshop. So at the time most of us just ignored it. Then the announcement last July about what they really intended to do came up and as I'm sure we're all aware, all hell broke loose because we'd been deceived. Rather than working with mod authors and users to come to some kind of reasonable solution, Nexus doubled down and told anyone who opposed the plan to pack their shit and leave. So a bunch of people did exactly that. A lot more than they'll ever admit to. It even generated a press response that was largely critical of what they were doing.

In any case, this really is not a topic drift that's relevant to the issues of "AE" vs "SE" so any further discussion of it should either be tabled or taken to a more appropriate thread.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Apologies to everyone for letting this get out of hand. Please refrain from accusing others of any form of "piracy" or starting fights in public. Instead, use the report function and let the moderators deal with it.

If this thread goes off topic again it will be locked.

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  • 4 months later...

I signed up for this site just to say it's incredibly baffling why you would refuse to allow anyone to use old versions of the patch for any reason. DAR alone doesn't work with newer versions of Skyrim and it's still up in the air as to whether it ever will (or ever will have a functional replacement), which is a framework used by a variety of popular modern combat mods.

By hiding the old versions of the patch outright instead of just gating them behind a separate website or some other solution to prevent users who don't know what they're doing from accessing them, you're forcing people who know what they're doing with their games to go to shady sites to find old versions of your mod. And for what? So you can shill the newest version? Yes, I realize the AE update is better even if I plan to never engage with the CC in any form; I don't care, I would rather have functional mods. I understand that it didn't break the majority of mods, but the fact exists that it *did* break *some* mods, so you can't argue that there's not a valid reason to refrain from updating. I understand that you likely don't want old versions of your mods circulating widely, but if you hosted them separate from the Nexus somewhere that would solve clueless people or newer mod users from accidentally acquiring them; it's also very trivial for any user who knows what they're doing to sidestep Steam's auto-updates without relying on any form of piracy - I do it myself. If you're concerned about preventing pirates from using old versions, well, just look at how effective other, better forms of DRM have gone in the past - pirates can and will find a way to circumvent it, in the extremely unlikely scenario they haven't already. Such actions only prevent valid users from playing the game in the way they want, just like anti-consumer DRM like Denuvo and SecuROM.

It's so absurd that you refuse to allow anyone to acquire old versions without relying on mod thieves archiving them that I had to register just to post about this, something I usually don't bother to do.

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It's really quite simple. We are a small team. We don't have the time or the desire to support multiple versions of the patch. It's not going to happen. Supporting the current version that works with the current version of the game on whichever platform you get it from these days is all we have time for. Don't for one second believe that we would not be inundated by people demanding support for old copies - you yourself are here right now doing precisely that. We aren't going to stop you from using an old copy if you've already got one, but we are under absolutely no obligation to distribute those ourselves, nor does the current licensing allow others to do so either.

SSE 1.6 is objectively better than running any previous version of SSE btw. The compiler optimizations that came with last year's update have essentially made the game as stable as any BGS game has ever been, plus it runs smoother as well. So there is really no good reason not to update at all. It's been a year. If some SKSE plugin hasn't been updated, it never will be, but that's not our problem. It's theirs. Holding the community back unnecessarily doesn't do anyone any good at all. Other people step up all the time to fill in the gaps for those who refuse to update their work. Someone will do the same for DAR as well.

Bethesda did not break anything. The only ones who have done that are the authors who aren't keeping their code up to date. This is far from the only moddable game where game updates mean people need to keep their stuff current or fade into obscurity. In fact pretty much every other moddable game out there requires that the mod authors update their stuff because it will no longer be compatible with the games. So you should be thankful that Bethesda has not enforced such a thing on the vast majority of mods which are not affected by updates at all, because they very easily could have, and there are some out there who wish they had.

There is never any justification to break the law pirate someone's work either. That's not something we take lightly around here and discussion of such things is not tolerated.

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8 hours ago, CrunchButtsteak said:

snip -  ...you're forcing people who know what they're doing with their games to go to shady sites to find old versions of your mod. - snip

In addition to all that Arthmoor said (because we see a LOT of the same type of posts over in the Steam SSE forum), there is also this:

If they knew what they were doing, then they would have protected their game from updates and had a backup of everything.  And if they are making a new build, then they should be on the current version of the game.

 

And my apologies for posting that if it is straying a little from the topic, but I just got finished with dealing with similar posts in the SSE forum, so not as patient or tolerant as I usually am.

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14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

It's really quite simple. We are a small team. We don't have the time or the desire to support multiple versions of the patch.

Then don't support it. Offer it off-Nexus with the caveat that it's archived & unsupported and that anyone asking for support for it will be banned/have their messages removed/etc like nearly every single other mod in existence does.

You know, like I said in my post. Which you clearly didn't read.

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Don't for one second believe that we would not be inundated by people demanding support for old copies - you yourself are here right now doing precisely that.

Except that I'm not doing that. I'm asking to have the option to download it because I know what I'm doing and don't need support.

You know, like I said in my post. Which you clearly didn't read.

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

 We aren't going to stop you from using an old copy if you've already got one, but we are under absolutely no obligation to distribute those ourselves, nor does the current licensing allow others to do so either.

Never said you should. Please actually read my post. I said you should offer archived old versions of your mods. Not doing so IS stopping valid users from using an old copy of the game - because many mods they might need to use an old version for require your mod, which you refuse to allow anyone to offer; this means you're literally forcing people to steal your mod.

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

So there is really no good reason not to update at all.

Except if you want to use literally any modern combat mod, of course. You know, just one of the absolute most popular subsets of mods. Oh, and the entire custom skills interface mod - another popular subset.

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Other people step up all the time to fill in the gaps for those who refuse to update their work. Someone will do the same for DAR as well.

And yet, nobody HAS stepped up for DAR, and nobody has even offered to, besides Doodlezoid, who has said that he will maybe attempt to port it - not a hard "I'm working on it and it will be ported."

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Bethesda did not break anything.

I never said they did. I never said they shouldn't have updated their game. I never said modders shouldn't update their mods, if they're still actively working on them - but it's unreasonable to expect someone to indefinitely update their mod forever, or to want to put in the work to redo their code from scratch in a new update when there are options available to people to keep their game from updating (your point about Steam's autoupdates is irrelevant by the way, since launching the game through SKSE doesn't trigger auto-updates). For this reason, archiving old versions of mods is important, and it is exceedingly arrogant to just outright dismiss absolutely every single mod in existence that isn't actively being developed at all times as being outdated and useless.

14 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

There is never any justification to break the law pirate someone's work either.

You don't need to pirate the game to play on an old version - in fact, Steam itself natively supports this feature through the console!

If you're referring to your mod, I never said there's a justification to "pirate" the mod - I said your actions have done nothing to deter it, all you've done is make it so that people unwilling to resort to piracy are locked out of your mod. Pirates can still use it just as easily. Legitimate users cannot. Because of you.

7 hours ago, smr1957 said:

If they knew what they were doing, then they would have protected their game from updates and had a backup of everything.

Unless the last time they played the game was before SE 1.5.97 of course.

7 hours ago, smr1957 said:

And if they are making a new build, then they should be on the current version of the game.

Unless they want to use one of the many mods that rely on plugins that haven't been updated, of course.

As I said in my post.
Which you clearly did not read.

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