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Deletions & Archiving at Nexus Mods


lmstearn

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On 8/13/2021 at 4:27 AM, DreamFactorie said:

just letting other content creators know it's here

Not just creators but users as well. I have lost track of how many times I have recently seen users spewing toxic posts out blasting anyone who pulls anything off of Nexus. In almost all cases it is implied that they now have nowhere to get it and its gone forever. If there is anything to be gained from this whole mess it would be bringing awareness to others that Nexus is not the only place to get mods from. Its one thing to be the most popular, its another to have so many insulated users locked in that they lash out if something is not there or taken down. Even if Big N stays the most popular one for some games they should know it is not the only one

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On 7/2/2021 at 10:49 AM, lmstearn said:

An important notice and our future plans for collections at Nexus mods and community

An amazing WOT of TLDR, good write up, albeit could have been embellished by some nice markup/piccies/graphs as you go.

In a modding Utopia, for such a setting as one could ever be envisioned, the idea would work beautifully. In our world, a few minor details come into view, like rig setup, OS type and configuration, and mod versioning. And the installed mod manager along with modding tools. Vortex has come some distance since inception, but so have other mod managers. No worries there, as Nexus is providing an API for archiving, so it has to be asked, how interested would the other mod managers be in picking this up?

This looks very much like the system adopted by Wabbajack, with more detail- should work well for folks who just want to play a bundled config. Bit like some with a car, really, one buys a car expressly for the purpose of reaching the desired location with the minimum of "fuss", or one can buy a car to try it out in certain conditions, add or remove components or accessories, go for some scenic touring, or even a world adventure.

I, for one, prefer the current setup at Nexus, the question of archiving files flagged for deletion should be weighted in favour of permission from the mod author, there are sure to be exceptions tp the rule, so this has some distance to travel.

Do you think this is a good idea?


Well, the idea itself isn't bad. Sometimes it takes so long for me to finish modding/fixing bugs, I end up too burnt out to actually play the game. However, Nexus' methods and long-term goals are not ok. It wasn't ok when Bethesda tried to monetize mods, and it's not ok when Nexus does it. Nexus just has an insidious, roundabout way of doing it. 
 

4 hours ago, JRICH604 said:

Not just creators but users as well. I have lost track of how many times I have recently seen users spewing toxic posts out blasting anyone who pulls anything off of Nexus. In almost all cases it is implied that they now have nowhere to get it and its gone forever. If there is anything to be gained from this whole mess it would be bringing awareness to others that Nexus is not the only place to get mods from. Its one thing to be the most popular, its another to have so many insulated users locked in that they lash out if something is not there or taken down. Even if Big N stays the most popular one for some games they should know it is not the only one


Very true. I only became aware that mods could be found in other places within the last year. If Nexus is all you know, it's hard to learn about anything else. How do you learn about something if you're completely ignorant of its existence? I learned about other places because of a discord link at the bottom of a description. Most people don't read the descriptions. Right now is probably the best time to advertise other places you can find mods, while everyone is paying attention (despite how pissed off people might be). 

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On 8/7/2021 at 5:32 PM, Arthmoor said:

I am open to suggestions for those who may want an alternative to either Paypal or Patreon.

Direct add campaigns ( products or services offered at discount to your users ) or a merch shop.  You might need to start thinking about something to make sure you can keep the lights on.

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  For me personally, I make mods for myself. If I share them and someone finds them useful, great. If one of those users choose to reward me for my work, greater still.

Probably in the minority here but I'm going to keep my mods on NM. The recent controversy doesn't really change anything in this regard and I'm not aware of any other major file hosts that reward downloads.

 

On 8/8/2021 at 9:32 AM, Arthmoor said:

If you follow through the Patreon link, click on the "Show More" link under the About Arthmoor post, there should be a direct link to use for Paypal.

Unfortunately at this time there are no other alternatives to use for sending donations, but I am open to suggestions for those who may want an alternative to either Paypal or Patreon.

Have you looked into Ko-fi or Liberapay? Though both of them do need you to provide them with either a Paypal or Stripe account to accept payments.

And I'm sorry to see that this whole mess seems to have killed your interest in modding.

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7 hours ago, BillyG said:

Just out of pure cuyoriosity: Why did you choose to keep some files on Nexus, like LAL SE (but not LAL LE)? Thanks for any enlightenment :-)

The explanation for this is covered in Arthmoor's original announcement and doesn't require further discussion.

If we could please get off interrogating specific users and their specific choices, please.

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22 hours ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

The explanation for this is covered in Arthmoor's original announcement and doesn't require further discussion.If we could please get off interrogating specific users and their specific choices, please.

Thank you for your kind guidance, I deleted the question.

The reason I asked at all was the quote below, I originally had this quoted in my question, too - and I was trying to be civil.

On 7/2/2021 at 10:02 PM, Sigurð Stormhand said:

Just to say, the mod team are aware of this topic and the "spirited discussion" it has provoked. We're happy to allow people to discuss it here, so long as things remain civil.

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59 minutes ago, BillyG said:

Thank you for your kind guidance, I deleted the question.

The reason I asked at all was the quote below, I originally had this quoted in my question, too - and I was trying to be civil.

I don't think you were un-civil, but asking people "why did you/didn't you delete your mods" is going to rapidly devolve into an argument.

Arthmoor has posted a statement explaining his reasons, as have others, and for the sake of harmony we shall take such statements at face value.

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i see at least here in the forum not all nexumods file deletion threads are closed. i'm not a big friend of the way nexusmods handled their introduction of vortex mod packs addon and file archieving.  today  it was the first time that one of my posts was deleted without comment in this topic and the topic is closed now. it seems that the whole incident with modders was not handled in a fair manner and nexusmods knows that. everyone knows what happened and it is not a good sign that nexumods begins to react this way. this is more the way china would react to a post which was completely harmless but it showed the moral problem how nexusmods acts and the way they alienized modders who trusted nexusmods for over a decade. so we got the slap in our face without reason and some nexus and mod pack users seem to celebrate that. fine! just wanted to mention that that i'm not happy about that. it was just beyond belief for me two month ago that this could happen.

i do not use vortex and i do not use mod packs so i declare myself guilty that i was not aware that mod packs are such a big deal and a reason to treat mod authors on nexus as it happens since the 1. July of 2021 and that nexusmods granted  the glorious 5 week "grace" or better "publicly celebrated alienation" period to modders, who trusted nexusmods for a long time, with the clear message to leave if they do not comply with the changes to their soly disadvantage and without any open announcement or discussion before.

i also still host 90 mods on nexusmods and i'm premium member and was not ware at this time that nexusmods would meet decisions to the soly disadvantage of mod authors. it is quite impossible to move this amount of mods with images in a reasonable time and i have better things to do. one thing is clear: as long as nexusmods treats authors as they currently do i will not add any new mod on this site and all what i still do on this site is just for my users who trusted  me all the time as i trusted nexusmods. nexusmods was aware of this situation and morally this handling of mod authors is a desaster and extremely unfair.    

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3 minutes ago, xrayy said:

this is more the way china or the taliban would react 

Comparing a free gaming site to the Taliban and China is not helpful at all.

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41 minutes ago, Pseron Wyrd said:

Comparing a free gaming site to the Taliban and China is not helpful at all.

deleting harmless posts in a way of censoring is also not helpful at all. so who acts like this ? so i deleted the taliban in regards of censoring if this looks better to you.

i've never expected this from and experienced it with nexusmods staff.

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2 hours ago, xrayy said:

it is quite impossible to move this amount of mods with images in a reasonable time and i have better things to do.

I would tend to agree with this. Most prolific authors, myself included, would have needed far more time than this to make a reasonable transition. Had it not been for already having AFK Mods online for years, and my already having everything on bethesda.net, I'd have been much more hesitant about removing 90% of my mods from Nexus.

Other sites I've been talking to are probably wondering why I have not yet started uploading there but this is primarily why. It takes time to reorganize things.

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For any who missed it, before the argument was all about licensing (the rights you license to NexusMods through their ToS), but in a forum post the other day they've now decided copyright itself is at their convenience.

Unauthorized patches of mods will now only be removed if there's a "good reason" (much like the mods themselves), and the original mod author not liking what was done with their mod is not among them.

The gate's been opened, and I fully expect further disregard of copyright from them in the future as they expand collections or add other features.

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No big surprise on that latest. For anyone who was looking, the writing was on the wall as to where things were heading. Regards moving things in a reasonable time. The timeframe we were given was in no way ample. I had 10 years of stuff scattered across six external storage devices. Over 80 personal releases, stewardship of a dozen more, collaboration on a number of others. 

Difficult to organize and transition all that while trying to work 5 days a week. Heck I still have a small handful that needed updating and haven't been transitioned yet. So as a result I missed the grace period. Instead of removing, all I could do was post warnings that nothing over there would see any further updates.

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The question around patches isn't entirely clear cut. I've asked two lawyers who are members of the community about this and they both told me the same thing.

First of all, a patch would be a derivative work and the patch maker could not claim copyright. Second of all, so long as the purpose of the patch was to facilitate two mods working together it would be unlikely to be infringing on anyone's copyright. There are provisions in copyright law relating to software compatibility and patches would be protected by that. Where things start to get muddy is when the patch maker starts to substantially change one or both mods to make them work together - then we're in to untested waters and nobody's quite sure where that line is.

Suffice to say, it sounds like Nexus is placing that line in very much the wrong place if they're not allowing mod authors to complain about their mods being defaced.

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File a DMCA takedown in those cases, and if they ignore it, escalate it to their host.

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3 hours ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

The question around patches isn't entirely clear cut. I've asked two lawyers who are members of the community about this and they both told me the same thing.

First of all, a patch would be a derivative work and the patch maker could not claim copyright. Second of all, so long as the purpose of the patch was to facilitate two mods working together it would be unlikely to be infringing on anyone's copyright. There are provisions in copyright law relating to software compatibility and patches would be protected by that. Where things start to get muddy is when the patch maker starts to substantially change one or both mods to make them work together - then we're in to untested waters and nobody's quite sure where that line is.

Suffice to say, it sounds like Nexus is placing that line in very much the wrong place if they're not allowing mod authors to complain about their mods being defaced.

You are quite correct, patches are derivative works, and the patch maker could not claim copyright. The issue here is that normally (and prior to this) if someone made a patch to your mod that you didn't want associated with your mod, you could report it and it would be taken down. NexusMods has now changed that policy so that it will only be taken down if it's on that small list of reasons why they'll take something down these days.

It's true that a simple patch that just makes a tweak to keep two mods from conflicting is probably not going to be an problem with anyone. Those aren't really the issue.

But picture this. You've made a voiced follower/companion mod. Lots of work into it, professional-level voice acting, and so on. The character is a healer and philosopher, with a Mother Teresa like personality. Now Bob comes along and patches it so that your mod works with his big-tits-and-leather-straps mod, changing her body shape and outfit if both mods are installed.

Later, Bob's at it again. You've got a mod that adds new posters to a game as replacers for the vanilla posters that show up on walls in-game. They're decorative, custom-built, with a lot of time put in. Bob comes along and patches it so it now includes his two posters in the mix, which are political, and either far-right or far-left (pick the opposite extreme of wherever your own viewpoint is).

Neither patch required substantial modification of your mod. One just adds yours to the list that can be affected by the mod, and the other just inserts a couple of textures and adds them to the list of posters your mod adds to the game. Neither patch is anything you as the author of one of the two mods are comfortable with, or want to be associated with. Bob didn't ask for permission, or tell you he'd done it, he just uploaded his patches. And boy, are they popular with their target audience... which was not the target audience for your mod. Now you're being associated with his mods, and the people that love them. You request that Nexus remove the patches as unauthorized derivative works. Nexus refuses, because it's not in the limited list of things that they'll remove something for these days.

Previously, NexusMods' policy was very clear. It hasn't changed in text, either, just in interpretation/execution.

"User-submitted content that is predominantly intended to interact with existing user-submitted content is subject to the approval of all parties involved and may be removed at the request of the author of the original content."

The key is that word "may". Previously, it was understood that it was being used as the more formal-sounding version of "can", and that the policy was stating that if an author objected, the offending material would be removed. Now, it's being used as permission; if an author objects, the offending material may be removed, if NexusMods decides it's in their interests to do so.

So now, in those situations where a patch is obviously a derivative work and the author objects, by not removing the offending material when an author objects, NexusMods is saying "we don't really care about your copyright anymore when we don't have a vested interest in doing so" and are perfectly happy just leaving the patch where it is.

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I'm going off of what the initial nexus announcement post has said (with quotes!) and i'm relatively new to the coding side of modding, so please understand. with that being said:

From what I've read in the initial announcement; Nexus isn't preventing all deletions, nor are they removing the option forever.

Here is a quote from the announcement that you have all hopefully seen before:

"Some mod authors brought up the necessity of deleting files that are plain broken and thus useless to the end-user. We do think there is merit to the argument that completely broken files should be deleted, and, at the present moment, we’re open to considering deletion requests based on this on a case by case basis. Down the line, however, we are planning to completely revamp mod and file data management into a much more powerful system that will offer authors better integration with other mods/files. In such a system as we envision it, there will be tools to deal with files that are utterly broken. Our goal ultimately is not to prevent deletions of files that are broken, it is to prevent arbitrary deletions eroding the integrity of the database on one hand, and undermining the collections system on the other. When we’re ready to move closer towards this system, we’ll be more than happy to reach out for feedback from mod authors to make sure they get the toolsuite that would be most useful to them. That being said, let us be clear about the fact that we’re not going to bring back support for random file deletions, due to the problems they cause."

Going off both that announcement and the use of the word "option" to describe file archiving; i'm presuming that in the near future, you can request broken or unusable files to be deleted and in a farther future, you will have the ability to delete mods within reason. I feel like most people aren't seeing past their own issues in this whole topic. I don't blame modders for being mad that they don't have full control over their work but there has been "instances" where some modders have taken things too far. on the flipside, a change like this could give users so many benefits and help when those "instances" occur; at the cost of a modders total control. It honestly feels like no one is right or wrong on the subject.

From nexus's perspective; they are just trying to "fix" some of the annoyances of modding and to be honest; they aren't (entirely) wrong in trying to do so. So many people are prescribing malice to an issue with multiple sides.

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3 hours ago, ASXC12 said:

I'm going off of what the initial nexus announcement post has said (with quotes!) and i'm relatively new to the coding side of modding, so please understand. with that being said:

From what I've read in the initial announcement; Nexus isn't preventing all deletions, nor are they removing the option forever.

Here is a quote from the announcement that you have all hopefully seen before:

"Some mod authors brought up the necessity of deleting files that are plain broken and thus useless to the end-user. We do think there is merit to the argument that completely broken files should be deleted, and, at the present moment, we’re open to considering deletion requests based on this on a case by case basis. Down the line, however, we are planning to completely revamp mod and file data management into a much more powerful system that will offer authors better integration with other mods/files. In such a system as we envision it, there will be tools to deal with files that are utterly broken. Our goal ultimately is not to prevent deletions of files that are broken, it is to prevent arbitrary deletions eroding the integrity of the database on one hand, and undermining the collections system on the other. When we’re ready to move closer towards this system, we’ll be more than happy to reach out for feedback from mod authors to make sure they get the toolsuite that would be most useful to them. That being said, let us be clear about the fact that we’re not going to bring back support for random file deletions, due to the problems they cause."

Going off both that announcement and the use of the word "option" to describe file archiving; i'm presuming that in the near future, you can request broken or unusable files to be deleted and in a farther future, you will have the ability to delete mods within reason. I feel like most people aren't seeing past their own issues in this whole topic. I don't blame modders for being mad that they don't have full control over their work but there has been "instances" where some modders have taken things too far. on the flipside, a change like this could give users so many benefits and help when those "instances" occur; at the cost of a modders total control. It honestly feels like no one is right or wrong on the subject.

From nexus's perspective; they are just trying to "fix" some of the annoyances of modding and to be honest; they aren't (entirely) wrong in trying to do so. So many people are prescribing malice to an issue with multiple sides.

The main issue is the lack of consent, the system was implemented before modders were even notified, months ago. Further, many modders did not intend to grant Nexus an eternal and irrevocable right to host their files (and Nexus does not explicitly claim such). Despite this, as of 05/08/21 Nexus will no longer delete files at request. There are also issues around the Nexus business model, especially the fact that Nexus only offers the smooth implementation of Collections to their paying customers.

The idea that a content creator should be able to take down their work and it no longer be available it pretty common, almost universal, to most platforms yet Nexus feels that this is not a courtesy that should be afforded to modders.

With this in mind, some modders have elected to no longer update their files and other have removed some or all of their files - as is their right.

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23 minutes ago, Sigurð Stormhand said:

The main issue is the lack of consent, the system was implemented before modders were even notified, months ago. Further, many modders did not intend to grant Nexus an eternal and irrevocable right to host their files (and Nexus does not explicitly claim such). Despite this, as of 05/08/21 Nexus will no longer delete files at request. There are also issues around the Nexus business model, especially the fact that Nexus only offers the smooth implementation of Collections to their paying customers.

The idea that a content creator should be able to take down their work and it no longer be available it pretty common, almost universal, to most platforms yet Nexus feels that this is not a courtesy that should be afforded to modders.

With this in mind, some modders have elected to no longer update their files and other have removed some or all of their files - as is their right.

I get that, but I feel like so many here are jumping to the "Nexus Evil, Grr Grr" mindset without trying to understand Nexus's perspective. I ain't trying to argue against creator rights but to try and provide a more open conversation since most here seem to already be on the nexus bad mindset. If you do want this site to provide a challenge to nexus, then you need to be open to what the opposing side thinks. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this being planned for 2 years? I obviously wasn't in the coding side of modding two years ago so I didn't have access to the the modder only forum that apparently exists. Your telling me that there wasn't any warning at all?

I would also like to state that I'm not going to get into the whole creator rights thing as that will lead to a circular (and possibly uncivil) argument since that is penultimately a cathedral vs parlor argument and I ain't gonna go into that.

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I can't see any reason they wouldn't be willing to remove broken or unusable files, as those don't help them or the collections users in any way.

There was, though (if I remember right), a situation where an author uploaded the wrong version of a mod, immediately recognized it as such, requested that the file be deleted so it wasn't downloaded (as it was the wrong version), and was told no.

They appear to be being very strict with their new policy.

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6 minutes ago, Gruffydd said:

I can't see any reason they wouldn't be willing to remove broken or unusable files, as those don't help them or the collections users in any way.

There was, though (if I remember right), a situation where an author uploaded the wrong version of a mod, immediately recognized it as such, requested that the file be deleted so it wasn't downloaded (as it was the wrong version), and was told no.

They appear to be being very strict with their new policy.

You got a link for that? I can't see them going against the promise they made in the announcement. They stated that they would make exceptions for broken or unusable files. 

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13 minutes ago, ASXC12 said:

I get that, but I feel like so many here are jumping to the "Nexus Evil, Grr Grr" mindset without trying to understand Nexus's perspective. I ain't trying to argue against creator rights but to try and provide a more open conversation since most here seem to already be on the nexus bad mindset. If you do want this site to provide a challenge to nexus, then you need to be open to what the opposing side thinks. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this being planned for 2 years? I obviously wasn't in the coding side of modding two years ago so I didn't have access to the the modder only forum that apparently exists. Your telling me that there wasn't any warning at all?

I would also like to state that I'm not going to get into the whole creator rights thing as that will lead to a circular (and possibly uncivil) argument since that is penultimately a cathedral vs parlor argument and I ain't gonna go into that.

I think you mean "ultimately a Cathedral vs Parlour debate", but in any case you're wrong. Wrye's essay is oft-cited but sadly rarely read. Whilst Wrye leaned towards what he called a "Cathedral" form of modding he was emphatic that no author should ever be forced or coerced into adopted open permissions. In fact, the only thing he insisted all authors should (not must) adopt was a provision allowing their work to be re-uploaded to other sites to prevent it being lost should one host go down.

Nexus has for a long time been a good steward of author's work and an author's write to choose - central to Wrye's original thesis. This is the reason it ultimately overtook the other modding sites - it made a point of coming down on the side of authors without being overly heavy handed and built up trust over a decade and a half. Then Robin went and did this for what are primarily financial reasons. The trust is now gone, so now mod authors are looking for competitors to Nexus mods so that Nexus no longer has a monopoly. It's worth noting that when Wrye published his original essay Nexus was one among a multitude of hosting options, probably already the largest but hardly dominant.

This is about author's consent, something Wrye recognised as essential for the health of the modding community.

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8 minutes ago, ASXC12 said:

I get that, but I feel like so many here are jumping to the "Nexus Evil, Grr Grr" mindset without trying to understand Nexus's perspective. I ain't trying to argue against creator rights but to try and provide a more open conversation since most here seem to already be on the nexus bad mindset. If you do want this site to provide a challenge to nexus, then you need to be open to what the opposing side thinks. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this being planned for 2 years? I obviously wasn't in the coding side of modding two years ago so I didn't have access to the the modder only forum that apparently exists. Your telling me that there wasn't any warning at all?

I would also like to state that I'm not going to get into the whole creator rights thing as that will lead to a circular (and possibly uncivil) argument since that is penultimately a cathedral vs parlor argument and I ain't gonna go into that.

They're not evil, they've just moved from a hobbyist model to a corporate model. It's pretty apparent that they've shifted to a perspective that what's best for the bottom line is what they want. This will benefit users in the long run, because that's where they are going to get the most of their money from. This will make a lot of people happy, giving them a smoother experience, especially for those who aren't tech savvy. It unfortunately transforms authors into unpaid producers of content for their corporate machine, which is not what many of us signed up for. The extremely dismissive way they responded to legitimate questions or suggestions did not help things. The time frames involved did not help things. There are plenty of reasons for some authors to be upset with them.

My concerns are from more of a legal angle. Their new model appears to potentially violate copyright in some situations, and they do not seem to care. Their ToS is based on a model that has been losing court cases for being overly broad and placing unreasonable expectations on users. Their move to a full corporate model appears to put Bethesda modders between a rock and a hard place since the CK EULA specifically states authors can't allow their mods to be uploaded on for-profit third party sites, which exactly defines NexusMods under its current model. They have claimed more rights than they need to enact their model, without reason (why exactly do they need unrestricted ability to *edit* mods?). And they have gained permalicense to any mod uploaded there under the current ToS, but have a clause in the ToS that says they can change the ToS at any time, without giving authors an out if there's yet another extreme change to the ToS (in other words, they have advance permission from anyone using the site to agree to whatever changes they make in the ToS, with no way to disassociate if they do something that person cannot abide).

Evil? No. Legally questionable? I'd say yes. Ethically questionable? When you put the bottom line ahead of people, that's pretty much a given.

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1 minute ago, ASXC12 said:

You got a link for that? I can't see them going against the promise they made in the announcement. They stated that they would make exceptions for broken or unusable files. 

Unfortunately, no, as it was in the endless forum, and I have no idea when.

But the issue was that the file was neither broken nor unusable. It was simply the wrong one.

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