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[Relz] Vortex - Mod Manager


alt3rn1ty

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Straying somewhat off topic here, but as I understand it MO2 is more than just a simple fork of MO. It's MO with all of the necessary additions for 64 bit support to make it possible to manage SSE and FO4, which apparently the original MO cannot do without causing severe problems.

I think it would be fair to say if this is true that the original MO is indeed abandoned all together.

Long Live Wrye Bash! :P

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35 minutes ago, Arthmoor said:

I think it would be fair to say if this is true that the original MO is indeed abandoned all together.

TESV and SSE are different versions of the same game, and TESV is no longer being updated, but we don't say Skyrim has been abandoned.

We also wouldn't say TESV has been abandoned because there's a huge community of modders still working on it.

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Actually most people I know do consider LE to have been abandoned, and Bethesda's actions make that pretty clear on Steam since you can't even locate the store entries for the individual pieces anymore without the direct link, and the "Legendary Edition" page has been deleted entirely. The company ceased development on it in 2013. They made it clear they were moving on.

The same is basically true of MO. Tannin ceased development on it and made it clear he was moving on to Vortex. Thus, it's abandoned for all intents and purposes.

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44 minutes ago, Arthmoor said:

Actually most people I know do consider LE to have been abandoned, and Bethesda's actions make that pretty clear on Steam since you can't even locate the store entries for the individual pieces anymore without the direct link, and the "Legendary Edition" page has been deleted entirely. The company ceased development on it in 2013. They made it clear they were moving on.

The same is basically true of MO. Tannin ceased development on it and made it clear he was moving on to Vortex. Thus, it's abandoned for all intents and purposes.

Is a house abandoned when the builders move on to the next development, or is a house abandoned when there are no occupants?

Tannin built a house and moved on, but the house remains occupied by residents who have since added on to it.

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Physical property analogies never work with software, but yes, actually, the house is abandoned because nobody is continuing to work on it. Someone copied it and built another house that looks just like it.

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6 minutes ago, Arthmoor said:

Physical property analogies never work with software, but yes, actually, the house is abandoned because nobody is continuing to work on it. Someone copied it and built another house that looks just like it.

A house can be abandoned only when there are no occupants. Whether the builder of that house remains is not relevant to the state of the house.

That the house was furnished and upgraded does not make the house a different house. It is a house with additions.

Fallout 4 v1.5 and Fallout 4 v1.7 are not two different games; they are both Fallout 4.

Ugh, you're impossible. I don't know why I bother.

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2 hours ago, fireundubh said:

TESV and SSE are different versions of the same game, and TESV is no longer being updated, but we don't say Skyrim has been abandoned.

We also wouldn't say TESV has been abandoned because there's a huge community of modders still working on it.

I certainly wouldn't call the original Skyrim supported or maintained just because people are still modding it, it's not like they can claim any ownership, control, responsibility, liability, etc. over the game. The people who can have moved on from it, therefore it's abandoned. While script extender devs and their ilk may be able to use wizardry to patch the code to some degree, it's hardly the same thing.

With open source stuff the distinction is often less important, but if I abandon one of my mods or bits of software, it doesn't really matter if someone else later picks it up and gives it a new lease of life, I've still abandoned it. The software is abandoned (by me) even if it's not abandoned (by others). Personally, I think it's better to hard fork abandoned projects unless there's an explicit agreement to stick to the same direction as the previous developer(s), otherwise it becomes like that "if you replace the brush and the handle, is it still the same broom?" thing, which can negatively impact users due to their (reasonable) expectations of continuity. Better to make it clear there's a change, IMHO.

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57 minutes ago, fireundubh said:

A house can be abandoned only when there are no occupants. Whether the builder of that house remains is not relevant to the state of the house.

That the house was furnished and upgraded does not make the house a different house. It is a house with additions.

Fallout 4 v1.5 and Fallout 4 v1.7 are not two different games; they are both Fallout 4.

Ugh, you're impossible. I don't know why I bother.

A program is not a house though, which was my main point. Programs don't have occupants. They have developers. Tannin stopped developing MO. It is therefore abandoned by every known definition of the term that exists for software.

Fallout 4 1.5 and 1.7 are not the same thing at all. MO2 isn't simply a minor revision to MO, it's an entirely different project at this point.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm impossible either. You aren't always right you know.

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In fact, LE may even be considered Abandonware:

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Commercial software unsupported but still owned by a viable compan

Fireundubh feels that as long as there is Community Support, it's no longer Abandonware. In accordance with the article, that likely won't happen even if it becomes a port created by the Community, cf. SSE as being a proprietary port, as to which there is a distinction. :P

Unfortunately, because of legalities with the many OEM components, and SSE, Beth will not be releasing LE as a Sourceport any time soon.

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7 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

A program is not a house though, which was my main point. Programs don't have occupants. They have developers. Tannin stopped developing MO. It is therefore abandoned by every known definition of the term that exists for software.

Fallout 4 1.5 and 1.7 are not the same thing at all. MO2 isn't simply a minor revision to MO, it's an entirely different project at this point.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm impossible either. You aren't always right you know.

Open source projects have occupants called contributors, and as long as they call that project home, that house will never be abandoned. Tannin retired from MO1. That does not mean MO is abandoned (i.e., empty, no one home, dilapidated, no longer maintained.) Saying MO is abandoned because MO1 was forked to MO2 is like saying a kingdom is abandoned when the prince takes over from the deposed king. A kingdom evolves with a change in leadership just as an open source project evolves with a change in leadership.

But, on reflection, perhaps we're talking about different things. This is how I see things:

UBO9n3N.jpg

So, when you say "MO is abandoned," it is most certainly not because MO2 is an active project. MO2 superseded MO1, but "Mod Organizer" (MO) now refers primarily to MO2. You'll note all of MO2's documentation refers to MO2 as Mod Organizer, MO2's splash screen still says "Mod Organizer," and MO2's titlebar and About window product name remains "Mod Organizer" albeit suffixed with the version number "v2.1.1." The assembly name is also still ModOrganizer.exe.

MO1 is Mod Organizer. MO2 is Mod Organizer. Both are Mod Organizer, which is why, in the ModOrganizerDevs Discord channel, everyone distinguishes between "MO1" and "MO2" rather than just saying "MO" when the distinction is necessary.

And when you say "Fallout 4," you could mean any version of FO4, which is why it is important (for developers, testers, and sometimes modders) to ask, "Which version?" Same deal with Windows.

As an aside, we are so off-topic. :innocent:

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Heh, off topic appears to be what we do here :P

I see where you're coming from now since you appear to consider Windows 10 to be an iteration of Windows 8. They're not the same product at all and development on 10 is not somehow being backported to 8.

Mod Organizer did the same - work on the 64 bit fork for MO2 is not being backported to MO1. They are different products. Same name, but not the same product.

Fallout 4 is a different matter since it's an ongoing improvement to the singular product. They did not for it into 2 products unless you factor in the VR version.

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16 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

I see where you're coming from now since you appear to consider Windows 10 to be an iteration of Windows 8. They're not the same product at all and development on 10 is not somehow being backported to 8. Mod Organizer did the same - work on the 64 bit fork for MO2 is not being backported to MO1. They are different products. Same name, but not the same product.

Windows 10 is technically a fork of Windows 8 and was originally planned as a Windows 8 update codenamed Threshhold. In any case, my chart was about what things are called, not their development histories. Mod Organizer (MO) is the name of both MO1 and MO2. We use "MO" generally, and "MO1" and "MO2" when we need more granularity.

Only reason why I brought up MO not being abandoned was because I know you have a strong bias against MO (perhaps only MO1 now that I think about it), so I just wanted to make clear to anyone lurking that MO, via MO2, is still alive and kicking. There are something like 400+ people on average in the ModOrganizerDevs Discord server. There's also a beta virtual file system in the #builds channel that prevents MO from moving edited plugins to the overwrite folder, which makes xEdit modding much less tedious.

Hmm, now that Tannin has moved on, I wonder if I can get in a fix for the totally useless conflicts system he implemented.

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On 10/02/2018 at 9:52 PM, Arthmoor said:

The same is basically true of MO. Tannin ceased development on it and made it clear he was moving on to Vortex. Thus, it's abandoned for all intents and purposes.

Going by that logic: How often has Wrye Bash been abandoned now? ;)

MO is open-source, as is MO2. To my knowledge active development is currently only happening on MO2 but since that should work with all games (if the bugs are fixed) there is little incentive to develop MO separately.

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I had a feeling someone might try and bring Wrye Bash into this :P

Here's the big difference: Wrye Bash is still being maintained on its original repository and hasn't left any abandoned forks behind. I consider this to be a key difference. We may have moved the repository itself from the original home on Sourceforge but the chain of development on it has been an unbroken lineage the whole time.

MO has not done this. The original repository is abandoned and LePresedente is working on a separate fork. Work is not continuing on that original repository.

I get you guys obviously like MO and that you think me saying this could be damaging, but trying to protect peoples' feelings on the matter is a political correctness issue I don't care to be a part of. MO2 is where the development is ongoing and that's an entirely separate system.

Whether or not Windows 10 was intended as an update for Windows 8 is materially irrelevant now since it's quite obviously a different product with a different repository chain.

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On 2/11/2018 at 11:35 PM, fireundubh said:

Only reason why I brought up MO not being abandoned was because I know you have a strong bias against MO (perhaps only MO1 now that I think about it), so I just wanted to make clear to anyone lurking that MO, via MO2, is still alive and kicking. There are something like 400+ people on average in the ModOrganizerDevs Discord server.

The above quote was in response to Arthmoors post, my bold and underline :

 

Well all this off topic started by me using the word abandoned in regards to the original MO. I quoted Tannins own words as to why I believed that was so.

Wasn't that end of story?. You questioned me  (not Arthmoor as you have just intimated) I answered.

Other people chose to take the off topic further (again not Arthmoor) ..

Not Arthmoor, who you are quoting and responding to, so this is a bit BS to say he was the reason behind you bringing up MO not being abandoned.

 

And for the record, if you think me to be any kind of threat to MO / MO2 - I personally actually like a lot of features MO provided, and admire the talent behind it. I dont use it purely because I prefer the way Wrye Bash does things, and if I am going to need a Bashed Patch anyway, I do not need to have another Mod Manager installed to do the job Wrye Bash is perfectly capable of doing aswell. If Wrye Bash did not produce a Bashed Patch, I may well have adopted MO myself.

I do not have anything against MO (or the further development of MO2), apart from maybe I wish Tannin many moons ago had jumped onboard with the Wrye Bash team instead and maybe we would have had refactoring and patchers for newer games a lot sooner which the community has been crying out for for about 6 years now since 11.11.11. Alas Tannin had his own ambition and goals to achieve, which he did admirably.

Quote from the original Oblivion MO posts https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/375961-oblivion-mod-organizer/#entry3089862

Quote

There is a new version of Wrye Bash enroute, which will have new installers (for itself as opposed to BAINs) 

But also there will be a StandAlone version without any need for Python setup (I tried a few of the svn betas and it works just as well as the traditional Python flavoured variety) 

Anyway enough on Wrye Bash ... Going Off Topic 

How do you intend to address archive invalidation (hopefully a similar implementation to BSA Redirection instead of Alteration which is prone to messing up peoples games without a good understanding of what they are applying) 

And (you have Install Order planned) how do you intend to address Load Order (essential for overcoming esp conflicts where the rule of one applies - Last loaded esp wins with its records changes to the vanilla game) 

And will you be able to provide a similar custom esp as the Bashed patch, to overcome the residual problems of Load Order where Imports become necessary for mods which have to be loaded earlier, but elements of those mods need to be loaded last, to end up in the game (Hence why BOSS always positions the Bashed patch last in the load order when it has completed its job) 

I think you may eventually come to the conclusion Wrye Bash is necessarily complicated. But not so hard to get into (Have a look at my guide if you get time, it may provide an insight to other aspects you need to address with your mod manager) 

I joined in just to give Tannin a few helpful pointers of things he may not have been aware of at the time which would impact his project, read on from that old link if you wish to see more.

 

I am certainly looking forward to the talent behind the original MO now producing what will be the replacement to NMM in the form of Vortex. Hopefully it will be as reliable as Wrye Bash in the granular tracking of every single loose file and conflict it installs and overrides, unlike Vortex predecessors (NMM, FOMM, OBMMex, OBMM) which have a history of occasionally losing the plot on what is actually installed and making a royal invalidated mess of the whole setup (well, ok they were not all quite as bad as the original OBMM could be, but they all had their moments except maybe OBMMex, and its successor Tes Mod Manager .. These latter two had the goal of being 100% reliable WRT installing / uninstalling and resolving / annealing (to borrow a Wrye Bash term) file conflicts).

 

So why you felt you needed to be Knight protector on behalf of MO against Arthmoor or even me I just dont know. The off topic was not started or even stirred by Arthmoor. And I personally have a lot of respect for anyone that can aid our community with their own knowledge and talent, we have some amazing programmers on many levels, that includes you fireundubh, the work you did on correcting the Wrye Bash Installer scripting was far better than I could achieve with my previous attempts after the old Wrye Bash team slowly thinned out, and it was very much appreciated.

Can we now get back on topic please ?

//OffTopic

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Vortex Alpha is now going live https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6396051-vortex-alpha-release/#entry57588446

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Hello everyone,

For over a year now we've been working on a mod manager to replace the ailing Nexus Mod Manager. The premise was simple, attempt to combine the simplicity of the Nexus Mod Manager with the advanced functionality of Mod Organizer and create something that is accessible to all types of modders. Back in May of 2017 we named this replacement "Vortex".

A couple of weeks ago we did a limited Alpha release of Vortex to 1,000 users, many of whom have been extremely helpful in posting bugs and feedback for us to work from. As a result of this feedback, Tannin has released four new updated versions of Vortex since the initial release two weeks ago. These have included fixes for a number of bugs and some updates to the functionality. I want to thank those of you who used the software extensively and posted bugs via the feedback system within Vortex, like we requested. Your help has been extremely useful to us during this process.

We're now ready to open up the Vortex Alpha to anyone who wants to give it a go.

Before you jump in head first, I implore you to fully understand what "Alpha" means, what state Vortex is in, and whether Vortex is currently right for you.


What is Alpha software?

To save you a Google search, here's the first result for a description of Alpha software:
 

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Alpha software is computer software that is still in the early testing phase. It is functional enough to be used, but is unpolished and often lacks many of the features that will be included in the final version of the program. The "alpha phase" of software development follows the early programming and design stages, but precedes the "beta phase" in which the software closely resembles the final version.

Since the alpha phase is an early part of the software development cycle, alpha software typically includes significant bugs and usability issues.


It's important we adequately warn you of the state of Vortex (as we are, right now!) because if you run to the forums or elsewhere to complain about Vortex breaking your mod install, and you didn't make any backups of your save files or game states, knowing full well what we're telling you right here and right now, we're honestly not going to have much sympathy. We're going to want to know about whatever bug is causing this issue and will work our hardest to fix it ASAP, but I want you to be under no illusions that this is Alpha software, and we're treating it like Alpha software with the expectation for there to be unfound bugs that will need fixing.



Who is this for? Should I use Vortex?

Ask yourself whether being an early adopter is right for you at this time, or whether it makes more sense for you to wait until Vortex reaches a more polished Beta or full release state. Considering we're being fully open about the fact Vortex will have bugs and is not in a feature complete state, do you really want to be using the software in this state? Are you going to get upset if it does not function properly or creates issues that mean playing your game is not possible until Vortex is updated or until you fix things manually? If so, this is NOT the right time for you to be using Vortex as your mod manager.

Are you competent enough to know how to backup your save games and modding folders, and able to rectify any issues manually or in another mod manager if Vortex doesn't work properly for you? Do you want to help us by providing constructive feedback and bug reports without getting emotional and rude? Are you patient and able to wait for fixes and functionality to be developed? Then we'd love it if you could download Vortex and give it a thorough run through, and we're looking forward to hearing from you.



Does Vortex replace NMM/MO/my current mod manager?

Right now? No. We're not recommending anyone fully switch to Vortex from their current mod management tools. We think it will get there in the not too distant future, but it's not there yet.

Many users in our testing group and in the limited Alpha we did over the past couple of weeks have been able to switch over fully. We do recommend that you try and switch over, but that you backup and keep whatever current mod manager you're using (and your mod setups/savegames attached to them) so if something goes wrong with Vortex, you can easily and quickly switch back so it does not affect your gaming.

With all this in mind, we're not officially replacing NMM on the site at this time. We're keeping the "Install NMM" button in the top nav, and the only place you're going to be able to download Vortex is from our own Nexus Mods game page, which will also hopefully include extensions for Vortex moving forward.

This, in itself, should tell you how we're treating this release of Vortex. This isn't an all singing and tooting release of Vortex to the masses where we tell everyone it's the best thing since sliced bread and that everyone should switch. This is still us releasing quietly, telling you that we're happy with the direction it's heading but we know that it still needs more time in the oven.



What type of people are you looking for during the Alpha?

We really want people to try Vortex and we're really grateful for any help you can provide in bug reports and functionality feedback. What we're looking for right now are individuals who are competent in modding their games, who understand the risks of using this Alpha software and are willing to be patient with bugs and possible missing functionality to help us develop something really good.



How long is the Alpha going to last?

We're aware that NMM was in a permanent Beta state and this was not ideal for anyone. We want to avoid that with Vortex, but we cannot give you a timeline or roadmap at this time.

Our initial focus is going to be on fixing bugs in the Alpha and addressing any issues that it brings to light. We'll then work on a roadmap moving forward, establishing what goals we want to hit before we're confident with it reaching Beta.



Is there any documentation?

Right now documentation that is ready for public viewing is very limited, but we hope to rectify that over the coming months. In the meantime, popular YouTuber Gopher is working on some tutorial videos that will introduce Vortex to users and help guide you through the process of using the software. I'll update this news post when his Introduction video is ready, and you can get further updates by visiting his channel.



Does Vortex include an import tool from NMM or MO?

Vortex installs as a separate application on your computer. Any existing installations and setups you have of NMM and/or MO will not be affected by you installing and using Vortex. The only thing that will be affected is how NXM (download) links are handled on the site, e.g. what application starts and downloads files when you click the "Download with manager" button on the site.

Vortex includes an "Import from NMM" and "Import from MO" functionality that will attempt to copy your mod setup from those respective mod managers. This is non-destructive and will not impact your setups.

Please be patient during the process, it might take a little while for Vortex to read your current mod setups if they're particularly large.

Because of the (now) archaic way that NMM handles files in the data folder, we recommend disabling any mods you have installed in NMM (or switching to an empty profile, that will in turn clear up any files NMM has placed in your game data folder) if your import to Vortex is successful. This is because Vortex and NMM both try to keep track of which files they've installed, and using multiple modding tools for the same game at the same time makes that difficult. If you need to revert back to NMM, you can simply disable Vortex and reapply your NMM profile to return your setup to how it was before.

As always, please backup your current modding setups in case the worst happens. Ensure you create a safe copy of your mod installations somewhere else so that you can restore from this backup in case of a problem, and ensure you know how to restore these backups properly before you attempt to use Vortex.



How should I provide feedback?

Vortex contains a feedback and bug reporting system built in to the software, which can be access from the menu in the top-right corner. If you experience issues while using the software please report them using these methods, providing detailed information about what you were doing at the time the problem occured. This is the direct line to Tannin and the fastest way of getting any bugs spotted and fixed.

If you post your bugs in the forums or elsewhere, without using the bug reporting tools in Vortex, it's honestly not helpful to us. Feel free to discuss any bugs elsewhere, but at least ensure you give us a proper bug report from within Vortex first (if you can!).



A note on feedback

Please keep in mind that, currently, Tannin is the only developer working on Vortex and as such, we need to manage his time carefully. To us, it's more prudent that he spends the vast majority of his time actually working on Vortex to improve it, because every hour he spends responding to user feedback is an hour he hasn't spent working on Vortex itself. So while it's my hope we can respond to as much as possible, please be aware it's unlikely we're going to be able to respond to all feedback. We will read it all, however.

A common thing we're hearing at the moment between the Vortex release and the release of our new site redesign is this concept of "you don't listen to us". I want to take this time to nip this silly notion in the bud right now.

There is a big difference between not listening to what some of our users are saying and not acting on what some of our users are saying/asking for/outright rudely demanding. I guarantee you, we read all the feedback we receive on Vortex and on the site, but not acting on that feedback does not mean we do not listen.

We might not act or change something that you or multiple users request for a number of different reasons and you should not expect to always get your way. We need to cater for a user base of over 14 million users, some of whom may completely disagree with what you're saying or have completely different wants and needs to your own. Yes, we want to try and cater for all users, but sometimes that simply isn't feasible or possible.

If we agree changes need to be made, or even contemplate them, then you need to be aware that our to-do list is years long, and acting on your feedback might not be placed right at the top of the pile (nor is it just going to be dumped at the bottom). This, once again, does not mean we "do not listen" or that your feedback is not valued. Thank you for your understanding.


Is Vortex open source? Where can I get the source code?

We plan to release the source code to Vortex as soon as possible. You will see the repos show up on GitHub, step-by-step, probably over a day or two. I shall update this news post and we shall post in the Vortex Code Development forums when they're ready.



I've read all of this and I'm sure I'd like to use and help test Vortex. Where can I get it?

Vortex can be found via the "Nexus Mods" game page where we've setup a special mod page just for Vortex. 

 

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Quote

Does Vortex replace NMM/MO/my current mod manager?

Rephrasing that as:

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Does Vortex replace Wrye Bash or anything else that proports to call itself a mod manager?

 

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Does Vortex include an import tool from NMM or MO?

 

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Does Vortex include an import tool from ... ?

Better off back in Off_topic. :P

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That's some wall of text, alt3rn1ty. I honestly had forgotten all about this conversation until the forum pinged me.

  1. I'm not sure why you want to take credit for the tangent, but okay, you can have it. Whatever.
  2. Also, I think the "knight protector" dig was a gross exaggeration. I wasn't waging war. I was clarifying that MO, which also means MO2, is an active project.

/shrug

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  • 3 months later...

Just recently it also now supports BSA Redirection for older games that need it

Still haven't got round to trying it yet, but I do intend to.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I've still been using NMM because it's just simple. Call me also an old man sticking to his ways, but where NMM fails, Wrye Bash shines and I find myself using both, the latter which I've used since the days of Wrye himself. MO - never used it, I can't say anything about it.

On to the topic at hand though, I'm not going to use this. It feels like they are trying to monopolize mod/load order management, by rolling tons of features from other MOs into one.  A lot of folks on the nexus have severe tunnel vision. They will flock to Vortex and forget about choice. Devs maintaining other MOs would be wasting their time IMO.

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Going to be some time before they ever match the capabilities of LOOT & Wrye Bash, if that's the objective.

In any case, there's a multitude of non-Beth games they plan to support, so they'll have their work cut out supporting those, and this will end up make the program code-heavy. Moreover most of the established TES mod authors prefer WB, thus they are sure to continue WB recommendations to the subscribers as well as Vortex.

 

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  • 2 months later...

Well, I decided to test the beta with my old SLE setup. Vortex successfully imported all my mods from their MO installation. And created a similar installation under [user] - AppData - Roaming - Vortex - skyrim - mods. So it installs the mods in separate folders at first, just like MO. Then it copies them into the actual Skyrim Data folder as hardlinks (they have little locks on them, and there are files that say "folder managed by Vortex"). I forget if this process was previously explained by Tannin. The files in Data are presumably moved in and out as you enable or disable them in Vortex. I admit to being a little impressed that it worked as well as it did, especially getting all my SKSE plugins. Only glitch was a strange double duplication of LeanWolf's Better-Shaped Weapons; I simply deleted the two extra copies. 

I used the Sort button, which uses the integrated LOOT. Nice, but from statements from Tannin and DarkOne, they put way too much faith in LOOT as a "magic button" for users. But the resulting LO looked pretty good, and the game started (externally via my SKSE shortcut, but the Dashboard includes an SKSE launcher too, which also works).

Now the fun part -- conflict resolutions. I did everything without reading any documentation, to see how intuitive it was. Being an old MO user might have helped a bit. Anyway, the basic method of setting rules is pretty fast and easy. It prompted me to Deploy again each time, to apply the new rules. The only trouble was that I occasionally caused a rule loop, "A before B before A" kind of thing. This was because I couldn't see my whole mod list and drag things up and down and watch the changes, as I can with MO and WB. Speaking of which, at most you can see about 8 mods at a time, so you do a lot of scrolling. You can also look at the individual file conflicts and choose the overrides, although it suggests that you not do this too much and use the rules instead. So I assume this means that, like MO, Vortex sees everything as loose files. But at least it actually does load by plugin order. I think. Anyway, I eventually got all conflicts resolved, but it was a bit of a headache.

The "Check for updates" function is hosed at the moment. It identified 3/4 of my mods as updatable when they were already on their most recent version. The only way to clear it is to reinstall the mod. This does not get rid of the original mod, you then have to manually delete it. Nexus integration otherwise works fine for downloading and installing.

The saves have the same function to restore missing plugins that MO has, except Vortex DOESN'T SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE. In fact, it doesn't even show you which saves need this. They all look alike and all have the function when you right click. It just does it. Fits the Nexus philosophy of "click button, play game," I suppose. But hits my "doggone it, Tannin!" trigger.

Bottom line is it's better than NMM. But, as Imstearn said above, the combo of Wrye Bash and LOOT (plus MO2 for fomods -- whatever its flaws, it's a great simple-BAIN-maker) is hard to beat for serious modders. But I don't think they're the intended users. If I had a new game and was just starting to mod, it would be ok. Until I learned more.

Aside: man, I'd forgotten what a micro-stuttering mess SLE is. I have a lot of mods for it that never got ported, and I don't really miss them. The stability and improved overall look makes up for it. 

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