Identical to Master Records

[Malonn]

This is a repost of a topic over at TAL; I'm hoping someone here can confirm or deny and explain why...

If a mod is split into a master and plugin (esm + esp), is there a need for both the master and plugin to have Oblivion.esm (00xxxxxx) record overwrites?  I've always understood for mods like this that the master (esm) should have totally new records and the plugin (esp) should have overwrites of Oblivion.esm (the integration into vanilla records, etc.).  Example:

The Blades Helmet (00000C09).  Let's say the mod changes the mesh.  The esm would not need to have that record in addition to the esp, right?  Why would "MyMod.esm" need the record and then "MyMod.esp" has the exact same record with the same changes?  Being it is a vanilla record, the changes should only be needed in "MyMod.esp", right?  Esp's were intended to be the files that overwrite vanilla records.  If you have a set of brand new armor, you create the requisite records in the esm, and then in the esp you load the armor into, say, the leveled lists (or in an NPC's inventory--whatever).  That's my question.  A practical example (and what I am working on that needs this answer):

OOO.  There are tons of records in the esp that have identicals in the esm.  Vanilla records.  They don't need to be in the esm, do they?  I don't understand why the authors have done it this way.  Why would you need identical iron armor records (random)--let's say the model path has changed--in the esm and esp?  Being it is a vanilla (00xxxxxx) overwrite, the esp is all that needs it.  I can't think of a reason why that wouldn't be true.

But, BOSS says not to clean for ITMs.  I understand if the mod has a change that reverts something to vanilla; it wants the vanilla value.  So (example:) the Blades Helmet needs to use the vanilla model for the mod, so it puts that vanilla record (which is ITM Oblivion.esm) in the mod.  I understand that.

Perhaps some of you senior modders can shed some light on this inquiry?

[Arthmoor]

The only records you NEED to make sure are only in the ESP file are any edits to CELL records, interior and exterior. If you don't do that then you'll end up with missing cells in the game.

Ideally you are right though that an ESM file should be nothing but new records that don't touch any vanilla ones. You would want to remove those edits from the ESM and let the ESP handle it. And yes, this is something that's been brought to the OOO team's attention in the past. They were unwilling to do anything about it at the time.

[Malonn]

Arthmoor is one knowledgeable son of a gun.  Thank you.  That is what I thought, but decided to ask (and test in-game, but with so much content, it will take a while).  Also, OOO's esp has new records in cells that are from the esm, but are placed in the cell via the esp.  It's funky.  I've already started testing that by changing them so that the esp has the new records.

So, (example) OOO adds a poster for the Skyrim Bandits Clan quest in Wildeye Stables, but the new record (the poster) uses the esm's form.  So the esm is 01xxxxxx, the esp is 02xxxxxx; the cell is "accessed" in the esp (02xxxxxx), but the record for the poster is from the esm (01xxxxxx), but the cell is not used in the esm.  It's odd and doesn't seem "right", but it works.  I'm changing it though.  All cell stuff will be housed in the esp.  New records for cells will use the esp's LO-correct FormIDs.  Based on what Arthmoor just said, and my initial testing, that is right?

I'm actually customizing OOO (heavily) for myself.  WalkerInShadows is the official maintainer of OOO, so I will bring this stuff to his attention.  I help (with scripting) so he should be the one to make the call what to do with the official OOO releases.

[Malonn]

What I noticed: OOO's esp injects records into the esm.  It's what I explained above, but didn't realize what was going on at the time I wrote that.  The reason (I think and want confirmation): It allows the records to be handled by the esm, thus later loading mods can make changes to those records.  A poster is injected into the esm, so a mod can use that esm-based record in itself.  The cell it edits needs to be esp because of the engine bug, but the new record being added into cell is esm-based for other mods to be able to use it or change it if need be.  Esm's are masters and easy to be made dependent on.  Am I right in this way of thinking.  Is there another reason to inject cell edits into the esm?

[Arthmoor]

Injected records can be somewhat tricky, but even they have to obey the restrictions. An ESM file cannot edit a CELL record from another ESM no matter what the reason. ESM files are allowed to add their own new cells though so long as they are not cells being added to a worldspace from another ESM file.

These lines got blurred with Fallout 3 and blurred even more with Skyrim once Bethesda realized they themselves needed the ability to edit an ESM's cells with another ESM. It's what gave rise to the ONAM subrecords in the main header section. Oblivion does not have these though.

[Malonn]

I'm with you on the cell-edits-in-an-esp.  100%.  I wish some of the old authors of OOO were still around... The guys who split it would be great to hear from.  Oblivion is half a decade old though, so... popularity has waned.  Why did they do some of the things they did and why did they do them the way they did?

[alt3rn1ty]

2 hours ago, Malonn said:

Why did they do some of the things they did and why did they do them the way they did?

I'm no expert at this but I would say it doesn't matter  ..

Lets say you edit the esm to put the ITM cell changes in the esp only, and cut them out of the esm. And, you find out the reason is say they wanted those records in the esm so that other mods could override them .. So why put them in the esm to start with = Makes no sense :

If there are mods which should load after the esp, then Load Order solves that ..

.. And if there are further complications that some mods should also load earlier than any particular records, then add Bash Tags to the esp header to make those records get imported into the Bashed Patch which will load later than the problem mod which has some records needing to be before and some after.

I think thats all angles covered no matter the original reasoning. I think I recall someone on the OOO team trying to argue the case for the way it was made to stay that way come hell or high water .. And there was no rational response given as to why. The only reason I could determine was that the new caretaker did not know either, and was very reluctant to change anything in case something else broke due to the change .. But thats the risk people take when using overhaul compillation mods anyway which cover so many changes in game.

You could always produce another Nexus Page and call your fork of the the mod something like OOOO (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul Overhauled) .. People have snags refer them to original, and / or at the same time solve the snags with a bash tag or Load Order recommendation for the masterlists for your new plugin names.

Always preferred Tamriel Immersive Experience (T.I.E) myself , then add Duke Patricks Combat Archery.

[Malonn]

I like hearing from people who remember old forum threads and their dialogues...

I do agree, alt3rn1ty.  LO and Bash Tags solve all issues nowadays.  An occasional patch, perhaps, to "lock it down".  In the early days, it was hard to make patches off of esp's.  Maybe that's why they wanted to keep esm IDs for cells?  But I can't remember how long OOO has been split into Master-Plugin.  I think in dev_akm's day it was just esp?

Anywho, I've taken advice here, on TAL, and my own playtesting to be pretty confident that the changes I was wondering about are safe to make.  I was half way sure before I even asked, but the mod was staring at me being done the way it was done and it threw some confusion into the wee brain.

I may make a page for it--would require some permissions.  I'll see.  I've merged Kobal's addons; there's some fine tuning to be done, but the bulk of that is done.  Took me a week.  I'm going to UOP'ize a few records, modernize a few old features (i.e. richer use of OBSE functions)... I'm also planning on stripping some content and enhancing other stuff.  It's going to be very "personal tatse", which makes me reluctant to upload.  But I guess all mods are "personal taste" in the end.

I've nevertried T.I.E.  It focuses on stealth and upping difficulty, no?  There's not much in the way of new weapons and armors, NPC customizations, etc.  I like seeing all that good community made stuff in-game.  There's some nice stuff out there, released over the course of a decade now.

[alt3rn1ty]

1 hour ago, Malonn said:

I've never tried T.I.E.  It focuses on stealth and upping difficulty, no?  There's not much in the way of new weapons and armors, NPC customizations, etc.  I like seeing all that good community made stuff in-game.  There's some nice stuff out there, released over the course of a decade now.

Yep, difficulty at the start of a new game with T.I.E was a case of run away from anything bigger than mud crabs .. Or use a bit of ingenuity.

An early example is the Dungeons you walk through having met the emperor, eventually you come to a place where there are caves and a few Goblins. Too strong to battle them hand to hand but unavoidable .. Pick a few shrooms to mix a coating for the arrow tips, and hone the Archery skills before you get there, or back off for a while to practice. The balance of that set area was carefully adjusted to be a challenge. There are quite a few other set pieces T.I.E introduced too.

It also added a lot of unique NPCs (about 800 I think) all in roles strategically placed to enhance the challenges for stealthy players and mages too, high level loot and armour became harder to find.

Everything was done using vanilla game resources, and it came with a couple of Filter plugins too for armour and weapons from other mods. There was also a book you can find (in the starter dungeon sewers), which gave a lot of community gathered hints and tips on how to survive better in this small overhaul with a large impact.

Just found the readme on my HD, its surprisingly good as an overhaul, I liked the gas arrows :

Quote

Features
========

Over 800 NPCs: Assassins, thieves, pickpockets, bards, pilgrims, alchemists, hunters, adventurers, varied Imperial Forces, barbarians, nightblades, commoners, hired guards, priests and healers, scavengers, tomb raiders, bandits & wizards, fences, infamous villains, heroes - these are just some of the new and interesting types of characters you will encounter in TIE. Above all else, this feature is the singlemost visual addition to the vanilla game. All custom made NPCs feature vanilla content and items for their clothing, behavior, items, and weaponry. Think of it as Morrowind Comes Alive - for Oblivion.

Tamriel Travelers: CorePC contributed and slightly modified his amazing mod to be included within TIE. Some of the NPCs can be traded with. These really add life and interest to the roads in general.

Spellmaking Altars within Chapels. In line with modified spells and potions suitable for thieving types, TIE now enables the player to create their own spells via altars - provided they're able to sneak in undetected...

Rarer Lockpicks and repair hammers: Gear up before heading out. If you run out of picks, try pickpocketing, thieving, the fences, and if you want a real challenge, you can try to approach Bandit Thieves in nearby camps as they will sell some. Just make sure you don't unsheathe any weaponry around them. Most vendors still carry a hammer or two, so buy 'em up fast when you see them.

Owned Crates and Barrels: No - not "Pwned". Owned. It used to really irk me to see how easy the player can loot barrels and crates in plain sight and never get arrested. Now all town and city barrels and crates have ownership. The exceptions are ones found in forts, ruins, caves, and various wilderness areas.

Hunting Poisons: These mixtures help players ensure they get their game. Upon impact, deer and boar, sheep and a few other animals will fall down, get back up, and run away mortally wounded. If you're quick, you can get a second shot in and finish them off. Otherwise they'll run away and you'll have to track 'em down. If a second shot isn't put in to finish the kill, they'll usually run around two hundred yards or so and die.

Tougher Sneaking and Pickpocketing: The Sneaking/pickpocketing system has been revamped somewhat and follows a certain logic. Most commoners are easier to sneak up and pickpocket than other thieves, warriors and such. Imperial Forces are definitely tough to catch off their guard so if you have a bounty on your head, tread lightly.

Fences: There are several in the game, but getting to them safely can be tricky. First you have to find their location and what times they prefer to ply their trades, then you have to make sure Undercover Imperial Agents haven't set up ambushes to arrest you on sight. How do you find a Fence? The first clue is in one of the secret lairs - which in turn is accessible only by key (scour the dungeon tutorial to find this key - especially near the end in the sewers).

Pickpockets: You'll be pleasantly surprised to see thieves and other lowlifes actually stealing and running from the law in-game. And here is the best thing: you get to keep what they've stolen. Of course, you'll have to be able to keep up with them first.

Secret Entrances: Tired of waltzing through the front door to try to steal stuff? These entrances fix the problem in grand fashion. To find them, simply walk around the outskirts of every castle, town, and city in the game. Some are trapdoors, some are rope ladders thrown over palisade walls. You'll definitely need to be somewhat of an acrobat to reach some of them.

Secret Lairs: No thief or assassin should be without some sort of home base. There are eight in total, ranging from lushly lit pads to worn out logs.

No more set Training Levels: Frustrated by the game telling you you can't train past a certain level? Well that's gone. Now, as long as you have the cash, trainers will train you to the maximum of their abilities in whatever skills they have.

Bounty and Infamy Payoff System: Morerunes is to thank for this cool feature. In vanilla Oblivion, one must be part of the Thieves Guild in order to have bounties and infamy cleared up. No more. Now, as long as you ride a horse, swim, or run, you can set forth to have your good name cleared - until the next heist that is.

Diversified Imperial Forces: There you are in your favorite Inn, drinking some delicious mead served by the local Wench, and thinking you've safely outrun the local Watch. Think again...an officer might be right beside you. In TIE, thieves and assassins will have to watch not only for Imperial Guards, but also Bounty Hunters, Imperial Frogmen, Marksmen, and Battlemages. They can be anywhere, so be careful who you talk to...

Tougher Prison Escapes: Perhaps you are used to simply picking a lock, retrieving your stolen goods, safely sneaking past a sleeping Guard, and making your way outside to the exit. Heh heh...dream on. Expect a real challenge now to even be able to breath fresh air again. Now one must avoid traps and decoys as well as tougher and smarter Guards. Escapes can be so difficult that you might find yourself thinking about giving up and returning to jail to serve your sentence. Sure beats getting a sharp broadhead up the [censored].

Non Leveled Loot, Items, Creatures, and NPCs: This means exactly what it says. No more leveled anything anywhere in the game. In your first ten minutes, you can find Daedric armor as well as a cool sword - just as you can wander for ages and not find anything of great value.

This also applies to creatures. Oblivion realms can be filled with some real nasties or little scamp runts. It all depends.

Deadlier Traps: Watch your step in caves and ruins. Your next step might trigger a tripwire, sending a three to four hundred pound spiked log into your chest - OUCH!

Decreased Thieving Sounds: No more loud foot sneaking or opening doors or sacks. Now, just about every thief-like sound in the game has been lessened.

Gas Arrows: These tools are designed to help you safely infiltrate and scout restricted areas. NPCs knocked out by the reservoir's potent gases will remain unconscious for roughly five minutes - just enough to let you make that important grab and get out. However, sometimes they can backfire and alert nearby NPCs, so use them wisely. Purchase them from Fences.

Realistic Bandits: In vanilla Oblivion, leveling up in-game means becoming exposed to glass wearing Bandits and other baddies. Those days are history in TIE. Expect highly realistic and dangerous baddies to contend with - whether it's bandits, marauders, or conjurers.

Spiders: Named Dragonbacks, they come in two varieties: Eastern Dragonbacks and Western Dragonbacks. A single bite or sting will either kill or severely wound you unless promptly treated. And chances are unless your hearing is very good, you won't even hear the little bastards sneak up on you. The only indication you'll have that you've been bitten is that you'll feel a slight and temporary blurring of vision. Both kinds of Dragonbacks create very valid reasons for carrying potions or spells. Dragonbacks are normally docile creatures, attacking only when provoked or when they sense danger is near. Unsheathing weaponry in their midst is a surefire way to rile them up.

Realistic Wildlife: No mammoth sized bears or boars. Deer are much more fearful. Wolves usually flee on sight unless they're in packs. Mountain lions also usually flee on sight but will sometimes charge. Black bears usually flee but will sometimes attack. Packs of feral dogs now roam the wilderness. Rats are much smaller and faster and populate wilderness areas around farms and fields. You may also come across wild stallions that are bullish and try to do you in. High, snowy regions now harbor rams, while small groups of sheep can be seen roaming the wilds below. There are also rumors of two or three gigantic Ogre and Minotaur Collosus beasts nearly fifty feet tall roaming the most remote regions of Tamriel. They may carry large amounts of gear and loot when felled. Some sewers now also contain a smaller form of Dreugh. Again, all creatures have been fully unlocked at game start, which means that if you want to stay relatively safe, then stick to the roads. As the Imperial guardsmen are often heard saying, ' the wilderness just isn't safe anymore'. And the best part is, all of these creatures have more developed predator/prey type relationships: wolves will actively hunt deer and many other creatures. So will bear, boars, and mountain lions.

Morrowind Ingredients: Remember Flin, Grief, and Matze? They're in here. Other nice ingredients and foods such as roobrush, marshmarrow, and even scrib jerky are in TIE as well.

Better and more lethal Archery: This applies not only to your own equipment, but that of baddies as well. Beware bow equipped Wood Elf bandits...

Fully interconnected Imperial City Underground: If you want a real adventure, try going underneath the Imperial City sewer system. There, you will encounter vampires, assassins, tomb raiders, scavengers, beggars, diseased rats and crabs, and much else. You may even survive long enough to catch fresh air again. Also, rumors exist of a mysterious visitor in the city's depths...

Fiercer Combat: In previous versions of TIE, players often complained of combat being too difficult (it is). However, version 1.26 and up now has shields becoming far greater assets for would-be warriors and brawlers. In most instances, Shields have had their ratings boosted up by over 400% and their health by over 1000% for longer lasting battles. If you can time your strikes right and protect your vitals, shield equipped fighters should not feel overly handicapped in TIE.

Another feature of combat in TIE is the chance of contracting various crippling diseases. And why not? After all, you are engaging dirty, roughed up individuals who have not washed in days or weeks.

Deadlier Vampires: TIE's 'denizens of the night' are no longer affected by normal weaponry, so take very good care of that shiny silver sword. Better yet, bring two. And don't skimp out on health potions either...

Fatigue and Health: In version 1.26 and beyond, all health and fatigue potions and spells and enchantments have been modified to be much more realistic and less forgiving. However, they also tend to be more powerful. The way they work now is that instead of gulping a health potion and instantly gaining back health, health levels come back slowly over time. The same goes for fatigue. So if you've taken a few bad hits and are running away from bandits and expect to have your stats boosted miraculously, you just may end up dead. Calculate your battles...

Greater Underwater Argonians Population: See that funny looking head popping up occasionally in the waters of the misty swamp? Chances are it belongs to one of Black Marsh's citizens.

New and Useful Literature: If you've just found a safe haven within a cave and have a few minutes to spare, you might want to give a few new books a read. There is "Tactics and Maneuvers: The Field Tactician's Handbook", various recon reports for every town and city, a Mythic Dawn NOC (Non-Official Cover) list, and more. The handbook, in particular, has many dozens of tips on how to best survive the dangerous Tamrielic landscape.

Safer Roads: For those days when you just want to leave the quests alone and pick flowers and enjoy the great sunsets instead. Just don't step off the road...

Rideable Bandit Steeds: They may be a little jittery and not have saddles, but these make perfect (if not temporary) escape companions for when you've successfully stolen from dangerous baddies and need a quick getaway. Just make sure no bandits wake up or the steeds will take off.

More Restricted Areas: Duggedank worked his magic to give us increased risks in "going behind the counter" in stores, Inns, and in certain castle areas. Three warnings from the local Guards and you'll be either killed or arrested, so watch out...

Lower Encumbrance: You're just getting out of jail, so your encumbrance will have taken a direct hit. No more carrying everything you find from the tutorial. Now you have to pick and choose your items carefully otherwise you'll be too weighed down.

In-Game Time Goes by Less Quick: One minute of real time equals ten minutes in-game time instead of thirty minutes. This is great for thieving, since you no longer feel rushed in loot filled areas.

Better Clutter: Now everything you pick up has value - including cups, forks, tongs. Yay - finally a reason to loot crates and barrels! Now, where was that fence located?

Revamped weapons and armor system: What I played around with the most are the weights, damage points, and health. Also, all vendors only sell either iron or steel or fur and leather as well as some Elven. The fancier stuff has to be searched for in ruins, forts, caves, and elsewhere. Bring good adventurer's gear with you if you plan to hunt for it. Iron for instance, is nearly everywhere. It is dependable and very hard hitting though easily broken. It is also much heavier. Steel is both relatively light, slightly less hard hitting than iron, but much easier to maintain. Elven weaponry and armor is exquisitely light, very hard hitting, but also requires constant care and attention in order to keep in good condition. Silver is hard hitting and heavy, but very easy to maintain. Also quite a bit more valuable. Dwarven arms and armor are the workhorses of the lot; extremely tough and lethal, though they are as heavy as iron. Very easy to keep in top condition. Glass arms and armor is a bit weird. It technically falls under the light category, but have you ever lifted a large solid glass item? It's a beast to lift! But in TES, it is classified as light so I kept it light. Extremely lethal, but also difficult to keep in top condition. Very valuable if you find it though. Bring lots of hammers. Ebony is heavy, tough, and valuable. It is also rarely come across. If you see it in-game somewhere, stash it. Daedric, as usual, is the rarest, heaviest, and most precious stuff of the lot.

More dangerous alchemy: Alchemical ingredients carrying restore health at lowe levels have been modified to instead provide fortify health. in addition to this, several ingredients may carry hidden effects that can damage your health, fatigue, and attributes. Making randomly ingesting things to raise your alchemy skill more risky, as it should have been. So beware when handling your ingredients! To compensate for this making things harder to advance in, apparatus' have been boosted in effect by ~10% and several mid to upper level ingredients have higher values, making it worthwhile to sell though you may have to give up those precious restore health ingredients if you're short on cash.

[Malonn]

Ah, it unlevels things... a must IMO.  It has some interesting sounding features.  I appreciate the readme post.

You ever use Maskar's, alt3rn1ty?

[alt3rn1ty]

No, a few years after it was released I found out about it, looked interesting, but by that time Skyrim had happened and Oblivion was history on my machine. I have the new GOG Oblivion now, but thats just for testing Wrye Bash these days .. Played games = Skyrim Special Edition, Fallout 4, Doom, No Mans Sky and X3 Albion Prelude. I dont really have time for all of them these days. If I ever give Oblivion a bit more attention for Nostalgia I might give Maskar's a go.

[RavenMind]

I really like the way Maskar builds his mods. I think he does pretty high quality work. That said, TIE sounds a lot more interesting now than I'd realized, I think I'll have to give that a go. And Malonn, I'd love to see your take on OOO should you decide to upload it! I recall there being some issues with guard NPCs and the way they tried to disable them. (IIRC they stuck them in a test cell somewhere, but some would respawn.) Have you run into that? I assume the problem bled over into FCOM, but I haven't tried that. Too much fun stuff to try, and not enough time!

[alt3rn1ty]

If you do try T.I.E, pick up the book in the opening sewers on top of a barrel, its called "Tactics and Maneuvers", you may have to be very sneaky in the area its placed, couple of Goblins in sewer tunnels close by ..

 

Highly recommend also having Duke Patricks mod installed, which compliments T.I.E very nicely (and was the inspiration for Skyrims Archery, its very close in the mechanics and Bethesda hinted that it was indeed inspired by a mod in one of their blogs, there was only one mod which fits .. )

Combat Archery

Download on TESA (while the site is still up, it went down for a while recently due to running out of funds)

[Malonn]

17 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

No, a few years after it was released I found out about it, looked interesting, but by that time Skyrim had happened and Oblivion was history on my machine. I have the new GOG Oblivion now, but thats just for testing Wrye Bash these days .. Played games = Skyrim Special Edition, Fallout 4, Doom, No Mans Sky and X3 Albion Prelude. I dont really have time for all of them these days. If I ever give Oblivion a bit more attention for Nostalgia I might give Maskar's a go.

Well if you ever do decide to revisit Cyrodiil, Maskar's makes it a more interesting place.  You don't have time for game; I've got the time, just that I buy too games too often.  I probably have 15 sitting in my Steam account that have never been installed.  2 or 3 on disc.  I've almost finished Borderlands 2 (2012 game), have Assassin's Creed II installed and sitting... but I always come back to Oblivion.  I still haven't played all the quests in Skyrim.  I have the SE but never installed it...

15 hours ago, RavenMind said:

I really like the way Maskar builds his mods. I think he does pretty high quality work. That said, TIE sounds a lot more interesting now than I'd realized, I think I'll have to give that a go. And Malonn, I'd love to see your take on OOO should you decide to upload it! I recall there being some issues with guard NPCs and the way they tried to disable them. (IIRC they stuck them in a test cell somewhere, but some would respawn.) Have you run into that? I assume the problem bled over into FCOM, but I haven't tried that. Too much fun stuff to try, and not enough time!

Yeah, Maskar plans out his mods well.  He does a great job with his stuff.  He's a talented scripter.

I'd be happy to share my custom OOO with you when I'm done.  I may release officially, I just don't know if I want to go through the hoopla of getting permissions.

I'm not familiar with this Guard NPC bug you speak of.  I'll squash it if I can duplicate it.  I know OOO adds female guards to the cities, but what I've seen is they disable a male guard and put in a female.  But ti's just disabling and lowering the Z a few thousand, as far as I know.

[quiclee1]

If you liked the games like skyrim, then you are certainly going to love the enderal mod. This mod comes with close to 100 hours of latest gameplay, and it feels like a fresh game rather than a mod.