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[RELz] LOOT - Load Order Optimisation Tool


WrinklyNinja

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5 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

(Heh, I just noticed Fallout 4 has a lot of groups, and lists them from the top down, main at the top .. Has a mind of its own)

It seems as if they get sorted straight from top to bottom, if only groups from the masterlist are detected, Screenshot. If there are custom groups made by the user, the groups get reorganized, Screenshot.

I've also noticed, that if you hold CTRL + left mouse button, you can open a rectangle and select multiple groups. Click

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"Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line to another."

I'm not sure if the situation get's properly detailed by this sentence, at least I was wondering at first, what that new circle was. Maybe something like the following?

"Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line from the connection point to another group."

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In general, I find this visualisation awesome, it's great to see the connection between all existing groups.

It would probably help, if the groups representing the "Top" and the "Bottom" would have a different color .. maybe the top one green and the bottom one blue (totally random suggestions though)?

Another suggestion, if the "graph" is not top to bottom but more like in your first screenshot, how about trying to smooth the resulting graph? E.g. like what splines in mathematics can do.

Last but not least, regarding zooming in and out .. a max. distance the user can zoom out would be good, otherwise it's very easy to "loose" the graph. Being able to zoom in smaller steps would be great aswell.

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7 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

Ah tis no big thing anyway, left to right would be bad with the group names side-by-side.

The arrows being a few pixels bigger would help though. And maybe if the arrow head is a little further along the line, at the moment to me it looks like the arrow head is positioned a third of the way along the line

---->------

It would look better if it were two thirds along

------>----

 

I like the naming of the groups too, Late Patches works for a variety of plugins which need to load after defaults and before dynamic patches (such as filter patches)

Do the groups expand the more types of mods that you actually have installed (For example I currently have nothing installed for Skyrim, so the groups editor is only showing one group, Default) .. Or is it a case of other supported games have yet to have the full set of groups defined for them ?

(Heh, I just noticed Fallout 4 has a lot of groups, and lists them from the top down, main at the top .. Has a mind of its own)

Dont know if you have it noted anywhere but for the to-do list https://loot-api.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/sorting.html

I've made a note of your arrow suggestions, they're both things I was thinking of experimenting with.

The groups editor displays all defined groups, including those you don't have any plugins in. Some games have more groups defined than others, because they had more priority values in use.

For the docs, I haven't merged the group-metadata branch yet, so the docs are found here: https://loot.readthedocs.io/en/group-metadata/

2 hours ago, pStyl3 said:

"Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line to another."

I'm not sure if the situation get's properly detailed by this sentence, at least I was wondering at first, what that new circle was. Maybe something like the following?

"Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line from the connection point to another group."

I wrote that before I figured out how adding new lines worked. :P I'll update it once the styling has settled (I'm not a fan of the connection point looking like another group node).

1 hour ago, pStyl3 said:

In general, I find this visualisation awesome, it's great to see the connection between all existing groups.

It would probably help, if the groups representing the "Top" and the "Bottom" would have a different color .. maybe the top one green and the bottom one blue (totally random suggestions though)?

Another suggestion, if the "graph" is not top to bottom but more like in your first screenshot, how about trying to smooth the resulting graph? E.g. like what splines in mathematics can do.

Last but not least, regarding zooming in and out .. a max. distance the user can zoom out would be good, otherwise it's very easy to "loose" the graph. Being able to zoom in smaller steps would be great aswell.

Different colours sound good, but if "top" is any group that has only out-edges and "bottom" is any group that has only in-edges, there could be several of each in a graph. Would that still be helpful, is it still worth it for showing the "main" chain of groups?

The lines are already bezier curves, you can see this if you create a cycle between two nodes, but the lines don't curve through nodes because they start and end at each node. I think it might be confusing otherwise.

As for zoom, both points noted, it's something I noticed too.

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3 hours ago, WrinklyNinja said:

Different colours sound good, but if "top" is any group that has only out-edges and "bottom" is any group that has only in-edges, there could be several of each in a graph. Would that still be helpful, is it still worth it for showing the "main" chain of groups?

I'd say, different colors will help no matter what. Of course, the more branches there are, the less helpful will this effect be, but there's nothing much that can be done about that.

3 hours ago, WrinklyNinja said:

The lines are already bezier curves, you can see this if you create a cycle between two nodes, but the lines don't curve through nodes because they start and end at each node. I think it might be confusing otherwise.

Say the goal would be to give the entire graph a 'direction', would that be something that you would like .. what would be feasible to achieve in the first place? Here are two ideas on how the graph could be 'directed': one and two.

The second idea actually is a bad attempt to let it look like a golden spiral. The idea behind it was, that with a golden spiral there would be a structure that's not only visually appealing, because of it's growing nature there should also be enough space for branches splitting from the main chain left and right.

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New build with a bunch of graph styling tweaks.

On 26/03/2018 at 10:57 PM, pStyl3 said:

I'd say, different colors will help no matter what. Of course, the more branches there are, the less helpful will this effect be, but there's nothing much that can be done about that.

Say the goal would be to give the entire graph a 'direction', would that be something that you would like .. what would be feasible to achieve in the first place? Here are two ideas on how the graph could be 'directed': one and two.

The second idea actually is a bad attempt to let it look like a golden spiral. The idea behind it was, that with a golden spiral there would be a structure that's not only visually appealing, because of it's growing nature there should also be enough space for branches splitting from the main chain left and right.

Unfortunately the layout options available to me don't offer anything like what you describe, the closest is breadth-based concentric circles (and it's rubbish for what LOOT's trying to display), but you're after more like depth-based concentric circles where the longest path spans the most circles.

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A bit lost with that new build link, when we get there what do we click to dl ?

Edit : Doh! - Files

 

Edit 2 : Like the arrows. Where you have the following text ..

Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line to another.
Remove existing ordering rules by right-clicking the lines between groups. Lightly shaded lines are for masterlist metadata and cannot be removed.
Remove existing groups by right-clicking them. Lightly shaded groups are for masterlist metadata and cannot be removed.

.. The second line runs to the very edge of the screen (and slightly over the edge)

lRWewSq.png

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This is probably low on the list of priorities now, with all that's going on with groups, but I noticed that the BOSS Masterlist for Oblivion has Bash Tag recommendations that the LOOT Masterlist is missing. Do you have a way to automatically extract the newly added Tags from BOSS for easier inclusion in LOOT? Seems like dull work to do manually. I suppose one way to do it would be to compare a really old BOSS Masterlist, from when it was first converted to LOOT, to the newest one, and check for any Tag changes. There might not even be that many. It's just that the one I noticed was for the Knights - Unofficial Patch, and so is likely to affect a lot of players.

 

With the newer version of Wrye Bash no longer reading Tags from BOSS, LOOT incorporating these Tags could be helpful to those Oblivion players who don't add Tags manually.

 

Thanks for your time, and good luck with the groups implementation. It seems quite useful.

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7 hours ago, alt3rn1ty said:

A bit lost with that new build link, when we get there what do we click to dl ?

Edit : Doh! - Files

 

Edit 2 : Like the arrows. Where you have the following text ..

Add new ordering rules by clicking on one group and dragging a line to another.
Remove existing ordering rules by right-clicking the lines between groups. Lightly shaded lines are for masterlist metadata and cannot be removed.
Remove existing groups by right-clicking them. Lightly shaded groups are for masterlist metadata and cannot be removed.

.. The second line runs to the very edge of the screen (and slightly over the edge)

lRWewSq.png

Ah, the width was slightly off, fixed.

38 minutes ago, Vrugdush said:

This is probably low on the list of priorities now, with all that's going on with groups, but I noticed that the BOSS Masterlist for Oblivion has Bash Tag recommendations that the LOOT Masterlist is missing. Do you have a way to automatically extract the newly added Tags from BOSS for easier inclusion in LOOT? Seems like dull work to do manually. I suppose one way to do it would be to compare a really old BOSS Masterlist, from when it was first converted to LOOT, to the newest one, and check for any Tag changes. There might not even be that many. It's just that the one I noticed was for the Knights - Unofficial Patch, and so is likely to affect a lot of players.

 

With the newer version of Wrye Bash no longer reading Tags from BOSS, LOOT incorporating these Tags could be helpful to those Oblivion players who don't add Tags manually.

 

Thanks for your time, and good luck with the groups implementation. It seems quite useful.

There's no tool to do that, though one could be written. Though the pace of BOSS maintenance is slow and there are only 19 commits to the BOSS masterlist since the last time the two were synced (Sharlikran used to keep on top of that), so I doubt it's worth the effort to automate.

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The new styling tweaks are great, but I found a few quirks.

untitled1whs76.jpg

The connection point shows some data, that probably should not be visible.

 

untitled3suu5o.jpg

Create a cycle between two groups (which aren't connected to other groups). Now delete one of the connection lines. What should happen is that the color of the two groups go back to green/blue, however they stay grey until I leftclick on each of them, then they are back to their individual correct colors.

 

untitled1gaonr.jpg

It's also possible to create multiple connection lines between two groups. Once applied there will automatically be max. 2 lines between test1 and test2 the next time the groups editor is used (one in each direction), but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to only allow one connection line for each way/direction between two given groups (so that extra lines wouldn't connect in the first place).

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, pStyl3 said:

The new styling tweaks are great, but I found a few quirks.

untitled1whs76.jpg

The connection point shows some data, that probably should not be visible.

 

untitled3suu5o.jpg

Create a cycle between two groups (which aren't connected to other groups). Now delete one of the connection lines. What should happen is that the color of the two groups go back to green/blue, however they stay grey until I leftclick on each of them, then they are back to their individual correct colors.

 

untitled1gaonr.jpg

It's also possible to create multiple connection lines between two groups. Once applied there will automatically be max. 2 lines between test1 and test2 the next time the groups editor is used (one in each direction), but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to only allow one connection line for each way/direction between two given groups (so that extra lines wouldn't connect in the first place).

 

 

 

 

Fixed the first two, I'm not bothered about such strictness checks as in your last point - if we're stopping the user doing silly things, they shouldn't be able to introduce cycles, for one. That sort of thing will come later though, one step at a time.

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Alright.

I think we need to revert the change to the position of the arrows. If the main chain of the graph goes from bottom to top, everythings okay, if the groups editor decides to display them from top to bottom, we get this. If the arrows are near the middle as before, the direction of the graph doesn't matter, since the group name can't overlap with the arrow.

 

 

 

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I've uploaded the most recent snapshot for groups as an optional file to Nexus (so "loot_0.12.5-29-g90bab58_group-metadata.7z") and wrote this article on reddit. I will also write and sticky a post on Nexus regarding this. This will hopefully help us get the word out and provide us with feedback of all sorts.

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On 28/03/2018 at 11:47 PM, pStyl3 said:

Alright.

I think we need to revert the change to the position of the arrows. If the main chain of the graph goes from bottom to top, everythings okay, if the groups editor decides to display them from top to bottom, we get this. If the arrows are near the middle as before, the direction of the graph doesn't matter, since the group name can't overlap with the arrow.

 

 

 

Yeah, that was why I originally went with the middle arrows, but the first screenshot below shows how on short curves they can get misaligned (as well as their weird offsetting). I've tried making the text background transparent in the second screenshot, I don't think it's quite right but would that be OK?

On 30/03/2018 at 7:22 PM, pStyl3 said:

I've uploaded the most recent snapshot for groups as an optional file to Nexus (so "loot_0.12.5-29-g90bab58_group-metadata.7z") and wrote this article on reddit. I will also write and sticky a post on Nexus regarding this. This will hopefully help us get the word out and provide us with feedback of all sorts.

OK, I've removed support for priorities as of this build, which is closer to the final result.

Screenshot (20).png

Screenshot (21).png

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1 hour ago, WrinklyNinja said:

Yeah, that was why I originally went with the middle arrows, but the first screenshot below shows how on short curves they can get misaligned (as well as their weird offsetting). I've tried making the text background transparent in the second screenshot, I don't think it's quite right but would that be OK?

The background of the text being transparent makes the situation better, but the result isn't really satisfying either, unfortunately. If I had to choose between the two oddities - the one being misaligned arrows if the connections are to short, the other being arrows being overlapped by text - I'd choose the the option with possibly misaligning arrows. I haven't seen the editor doing that by itself until now IIRC (so with other words, the editor making the connections to short) and the user can increase the distance between two groups manually.

What I'm asking myself, can you place the arrows only exactly on the ends of each connection + the middle of it .. or can you place the arrow also "along the way"? So for example at 1/3, 2/3, 3/4, et cetera between source and target group? If you can, and place them there, will the arrows still get misaligned, if the connetion becomes short?

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3 hours ago, pStyl3 said:

The background of the text being transparent makes the situation better, but the result isn't really satisfying either, unfortunately. If I had to choose between the two oddities - the one being misaligned arrows if the connections are to short, the other being arrows being overlapped by text - I'd choose the the option with possibly misaligning arrows. I haven't seen the editor doing that by itself until now IIRC (so with other words, the editor making the connections to short) and the user can increase the distance between two groups manually.

What I'm asking myself, can you place the arrows only exactly on the ends of each connection + the middle of it .. or can you place the arrow also "along the way"? So for example at 1/3, 2/3, 3/4, et cetera between source and target group? If you can, and place them there, will the arrows still get misaligned, if the connetion becomes short?

Unfortunately the only options for arrow positions I have are start/'middle'/end of the line.

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On 30/03/2018 at 7:22 PM, pStyl3 said:

I've uploaded the most recent snapshot for groups as an optional file to Nexus (so "loot_0.12.5-29-g90bab58_group-metadata.7z") and wrote this article on reddit. I will also write and sticky a post on Nexus regarding this. This will hopefully help us get the word out and provide us with feedback of all sorts.

Heads up, I've just rebased the group-metadata branch, so the old builds will be deleted (the branch was getting close to Bintray's limit on stored builds). As a result the link you posted will now be broken, sorry about that. This is now the latest build, and in it I've also switched back to mid-arrows and offset their position so they look more centered.

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I'm finally learning some more Git. I've forked SSE's masterlist, cloned it to my local machine from there, added new dirty plugin info for the official plugins, pushed it back to github. I assume the next step would be to create a pull request in loot/skyrimse right? I still need to read more regarding doing pull requests, but I want to do so tomorrow. After that, I'd like to provide some data regarding clean and dirty plugins for FO4.

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6 hours ago, pStyl3 said:

I'm finally learning some more Git. I've forked SSE's masterlist, cloned it to my local machine from there, added new dirty plugin info for the official plugins, pushed it back to github. I assume the next step would be to create a pull request in loot/skyrimse right? I still need to read more regarding doing pull requests, but I want to do so tomorrow. After that, I'd like to provide some data regarding clean and dirty plugins for FO4.

Yes, that's right. I look forward to merging your PR!

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I have trouble running LOOT.

SSE is fresh install. MO 2.1.2 is fresh install. [standalone version] LOOT 0.12.5 is fresh install

Now after installing LOOT, MO2 automatically detects LOOT.exe. When I tried to run it, it gives me the error message:

failed to spawn "LOOT.exe": failed to start process (The parameter is incorrect [87])

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2 minutes ago, coldcell said:

I have trouble running LOOT.

SSE is fresh install. MO 2.1.2 is fresh install. [standalone version] LOOT 0.12.5 is fresh install

Now after installing LOOT, MO2 automatically detects LOOT.exe. When I tried to run it, it gives me the error message:

failed to spawn "LOOT.exe": failed to start process (The parameter is incorrect [87])

I don't provide support for MO2, if you're having trouble with it try getting help from its developers.

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Possible bug report

 

I'm using Audio Overhaul Skyrim and RealisticWaterTwo. There is a patch by AOS for RWT, but LOOT puts the patch above RWT while RWT is sorted as last. This made the patch useless since it's above RWT. As a result the in-game sound of waterwall is extremely loud. I manually put the patch below RWT every time I need to sort.

Other than that, LOOT works great.

 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, coldcell said:

Possible bug report

 

I'm using Audio Overhaul Skyrim and RealisticWaterTwo. There is a patch by AOS for RWT, but LOOT puts the patch above RWT while RWT is sorted as last. This made the patch useless since it's above RWT. As a result the in-game sound of waterwall is extremely loud. I manually put the patch below RWT every time I need to sort.

Other than that, LOOT works great.

 

Thanks!

In Loot, you can add to the patch's metadata and indicate it should load after RWT.  Then you only have to fix it once until the masterlist is fixed.

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With the latest masterlist, I had a cyclic error on a build I had already been running, but could not find what had changed in the masterlist to result in this.

Quote

Failed to sort plugins. Details: Cyclic interaction detected between "RealisticWaterTwo+-+Verdant+Patch.esp" and "My Home Is Your Home.esp". Back cycle: My Home Is Your Home.esp, RealisticWaterTwo.esp, RealisticWaterTwo+-+Verdant+Patch.esp

I solved this by adding to "My Home Is Your Home.esp" a load after "RealisticWaterTwo+-+Verdant+Patch.esp" tag.  I am still learning the master list, so any education on what happened would be helpful.

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