Creator of MO is officially working on next version of NMM

[dAb]

Lol!  Me too, but it's your mod, YASH that has me wanting to try out multiple profiles.  After spending the past year building up a very stable Requiem based load order of 116 plugins that runs at 58-60 FPS everywhere and does not crash, I am not about to tear that all apart to try something new without a good profile system that would make it easy to switch back and forth.  But I do want to check out YASH at some point.  Maybe once SKSE gets recompiled for SSE and you get YASH onto the new engine, I will start SSE with YASH.

 

YASH2 is BSA packed. Shouldn't give you trouble.

[Turija]

YASH2 is BSA packed. Shouldn't give you trouble.

It's not YASH I am worried about.  It's all the loose files from Requiem and other mods and patches I have in my load order.  I don't think I can just deactivate the esps from all that stuff and expect to not run into trouble with all those loose files hanging about.  For instance, I've got three different mods overwriting each other's loose file replacement of the vanilla mine ore script.  

[dAb]

It's not YASH I am worried about.  It's all the loose files from Requiem and other mods and patches I have in my load order.  I don't think I can just deactivate the esps from all that stuff and expect to not run into trouble with all those loose files hanging about.

 

Oh oops, got it.

[Tanker1985]

I had started a full switchover to Bash but switched back to MO so I could continue playing my more complicated profiles (moot now since I have deleted all saves again). I am now trying to get everything to a single mod list with a few variant plugins, but I have the problem Turija mention with loose file mods. My real problem is that I can't bring myself to switch every character to either vanilla or UNP, and some specific UNP mods are loose file. I'm thinking of switching a couple of the vanilla characters to the SE eventually (their whole point is that they are vanilla characters I played on Xbox, and I don't need a highly modded game to play them), which would take care of the problem. Or I'll continue my current Morrowind/Oblivion binge and let the Skyrim modding scene work itself out some more. I'm very happy with Bash/Mash for those games.

 

MO is still useful to me as a downloader and fomod installer for Skyrim. I found I could easily handle some fomods by installing them with MO then packaging up the installed files as a simple BAIN. There are a few aspects of Bash that I am having trouble grasping (some day, I will understand exactly what "anneal" does) but I'm working on it.

[dAb]

There are a few aspects of Bash that I am having trouble grasping (some day, I will understand exactly what "anneal" does) but I'm working on it.

 

Say you install package X, then accidentally alter the Data folder contents in regard of the package X content. The install becomes "dirty" and you can use Anneal to reinstall missing/mismatched files.

 

May appear redundant as you can just use Install, but Anneal is faster because it doesn't unpack the whole archive, only the files needed. Perhaps redundant anyway these days but Bash was born when SSD wasn't a thing yet

[Turija]

Say you install package X, then accidentally alter the Data folder contents in regard of the package X content. The install becomes "dirty" and you can use Anneal to reinstall missing/mismatched files.

Except I thought that "anneal" won't reinstall "mismatched" files that are not "matched" to some other BAIN.  So if you alter a file manually (like if you cleaned it in xEdit, for example or manually installed a replacer), anneal won't reinstall it.  You would need to use "install" for this purpose.  Is that not correct?

[dAb]

Except I thought that "anneal" won't reinstall "mismatched" files that are not "matched" to some other BAIN.  So if you alter a file manually (like if you cleaned it in xEdit, for example or manually installed a replacer), anneal won't reinstall it.  You would need to use "install" for this purpose.  Is that not correct?

 

Ah, you're right. Scratch the mismatched part, it's actually for missing files only.

[Arthmoor]

Anneal will install only those files which are missing or changed that have not been overridden by something listed further down in the package list. That's one of the primary ways Bash handles loose file conflicts. The installers tab in general always seems to be so poorly understood by people who use MO that it really does make me wonder if they've ever even tried to use anything in Bash beyond building the patch with it.

[dAb]

Oh, that clears that up. Perhaps things like these are reasons why MO users stay clear from Bash, even me being a long time user have not fully understood how it works and what I know about it I tend to forget it pretty fast

[NightStar]

It's not YASH I am worried about.  It's all the loose files from Requiem and other mods and patches I have in my load order.  I don't think I can just deactivate the esps from all that stuff and expect to not run into trouble with all those loose files hanging about.  For instance, I've got three different mods overwriting each other's loose file replacement of the vanilla mine ore script.  

 

My solution to having multiple complex mod installations with loose files overwriting each others at the same time is to have multiple Skyrim data folders that I switch to (by renaming the folder) based on what character I want to play (you do have to remember to switch out your mod manager's configuration files too at the same time). This way it's easy to try out new things in a separate data folder.

 

If you want to add something you're not entire sure you want to keep, you can make a copy your data folder and your mod manager's config files, put the new stuff in, organise everything the way you like it and then test it out. If you want to go back, just rename the folders and move your old config files back. It's really quick actually and has saved me a ton of headache. All it requires is some extra hard drive space, which is really easy to come by these days. Skyrim doesn't mind if there are data1, dataRealistic and dataRequim in its file structure, it only looks for and reads Data.

[Leonardo]

Anneal will install only those files which are missing or changed that have not been overridden by something listed further down in the package list. That's one of the primary ways Bash handles loose file conflicts. The installers tab in general always seems to be so poorly understood by people who use MO that it really does make me wonder if they've ever even tried to use anything in Bash beyond building the patch with it.

And the Anneal feature exist in Wrye Mash, Wrye Bash (Oblivion and Skyrim), and Wrye Flash (not sure if I am correct about this or not).

 

Here I posted three pictures (I could only upload three pictures on GHF) for Wrye Mash, I use Sharlikran's WMSA Fork of Yacoby's WMSA, to take a look at.  If anyone wants to know what purpose Anneal has and does in BAIN.

[IsharaMeradin]

I can agree that if mods were solely ESP / BSA pairs, direct install to the data folder is acceptable.  It is loose file mods that cause issues.  While some could be packed into a BSA, others consist of too many files and would make a BSA too large for the game to handle.  Creating secondary BSA files creates a new problem in that the INI file needs to be maintained so that the extra BSA files are listed in the correct order.

 

Nexus Mod Manager failed to manage loose files very well. I ended up having to uninstall and reinstall many times just to test the source of various issues. I stuck with NMM until the introduction of the profiling feature.  Mod Organizer made it easier in that mod folders could be unchecked in order to keep those files from being seen by the game.  Wrye Bash always seemed complicated when it came to installing. I do use WB for bashed patch, adjusting load order to match master file order for save files if need be. I find using WB for espifying and esmifying much easier than xEdit. I've even made some INI edits with WB before. I have managed to make FOMOD installers with a folder structure that I hope is BAIN friendly, but there is no actual guarantee for that. I've always wondered if my issue with WB is more likely that the documentation is written towards someone who already knows how to use the tool than someone who is new to the tool. I would love to see the 'Wrye Bash for Dummies' version of the instructions. 

 

What I want in a mod manager is one that is capable of managing the installation order of loose files with the ability to adjust their order at will. I want the ability to hide an individual file (not delete in case I want to use it later). I want that without sacrificing the ability to manage load order for ESP / BSA pairs.

 

I do like the ability to have separate folders for each mod as found in MO.  It makes it much easier to gather up all necessary files for packing into BSA and 7z archives. When I make a mod or update a mod it can sometimes take me a while to do and the chance of forgetting something important rises significantly if all the files are lumped in the data folder. This is especially true of mods that have additional mod requirements in order to work.

 

Mod Organizer fits most of it, but does have an issue in that it would load BSA files at priority level rather than with the ESP file.  The only workaround to that issue is to adjust the left pane (priority) to match the right pane (load order), then shift all mods without BSA files below the mods with BSA files in the left pane without changing the respective priority order on the non-BSA mods.  This is something that most users of MO probably do not know and can be the cause of issues that mod authors cannot replicate.  This issue can cause the appearance of BSA files being unpacked even tho they are not actually unpacked.

 

I'm not saying that one is better than another. Just that for now, Mod Organizer fits most of what I am looking for. Tho I do look forward to seeing what the new utility may be like when it is eventually released.

[alt3rn1ty]

<snip> I've always wondered if my issue with WB is more likely that the documentation is written towards someone who already knows how to use the tool than someone who is new to the tool. I would love to see the 'Wrye Bash for Dummies' version of the instructions. <snip>

 

 

Ehm, there is a Wrye Bash for dummies guide .. Linked in the Wrye Bash topic first posts ( See also my sig for the Pictorial Guide link )

 

I made a few tutorials on creating BAINs too to follow through once so that you get the idea easily

 

The Installers Tab is easier to understand if you look at it as a sequence of overwrites in its Install Order

( There are also potential overwrites within sub-packages of the same installer, where files conflict )

As for re-arranging your install order easily - Just drag an installer up / down the list and Anneal all.

 

The main reason I have always used it is because traditionally the OBMM pedigree of Mod Managers were not so reliable at keeping track of the granular detail of installations of thousands of loose files .. Whereas Wrye Bash was consistently good at doing just that.

[alt3rn1ty]

I would imagine that Tannin will this time around hide any BSA extraction capabilities, and turn them off by default ( as I think he did with more recent versions of MO )

 

And my only hope for this new mod manager is that it supports the current MO / NMM behaviour of supporting a FOMod folder ( for legacy scripted installation of mods not likely to be revisited by the authors ), and just ignores any wizard.txt files it finds in the root of an archive ..

 

The latter because currently where we have made any installers with multiple scripts for all mod managers inside the same mod archives, that is the current behaviour and needs no adaptation. My "Kill the Orchestra" for example can be installed with MO and NMM which will use the FOMod scripting in my mods file, and can also be installed with a Wrye Bash wizard also present in the root of the file.

 

 

Beyond our concerns for TES games though, I dont envy him the job he is taking on, and management of any conceivable games bunch of files on Nexus.

[dAb]

 

I do like the ability to have separate folders for each mod as found in MO.  It makes it much easier to gather up all necessary files for packing into BSA and 7z archives. When I make a mod or update a mod it can sometimes take me a while to do and the chance of forgetting something important rises significantly if all the files are lumped in the data folder. This is especially true of mods that have additional mod requirements in order to work.

 

The way I do it, it's to make a new mod folder inside the Bash Installers folder and drop the very first file in there. Then I "install" the mod in WB so that it becomes green, as in properly synchronized with the Data folder contents. When more files I work with in the Data folder/subfolders are added and I'm done working with them, I copy them to the mod folder and do a refresh, if anything is dirty WB will warn you. Everything you'll need to gather up for packing will be into the mod folder, so that you can safely ignore what's scattered inside Data, and even uninstall and reinstall at will the mod you're working on, nothing will be lost.

Perhaps there's even a more elegant way to do the above and I can't see it, but I got used to it and I've never made mistakes once.

[dAb]

Mod Organizer fits most of it, but does have an issue in that it would load BSA files at priority level rather than with the ESP file.  The only workaround to that issue is to adjust the left pane (priority) to match the right pane (load order), then shift all mods without BSA files below the mods with BSA files in the left pane without changing the respective priority order on the non-BSA mods.  This is something that most users of MO probably do not know and can be the cause of issues that mod authors cannot replicate.  This issue can cause the appearance of BSA files being unpacked even tho they are not actually unpacked.

 

Oh my, it does what? Now I can see where all MO-related problems come from. So if I'm understanding this right it actually allows packaged assets to be loaded in a different load order than the ESPs?

[IsharaMeradin]

Ehm, there is a Wrye Bash for dummies guide .. Linked in the Wrye Bash topic first posts ( See also my sig for the Pictorial Guide link )

Where is this Wrye Bash topic located?  A search here for 'Wrye Bash' didn't yield a topic dedicated to Wrye Bash at least not one that I recognized.  If it is the thread over at BethSoft, those point to the same instructions as linked in the utility.

 

Egad...  I've read that thing and looked at it so much in the past and only just now discovered that if you hover over the first abbreviated term (i.e. BAIN) that there is a tool tip that appears explaining what it is.  You know how hard it is to understand something when you don't know what the letters mean?  I would never have thought to do that, the mouse just happened to come to rest above one of them and a tool tip appeared.

 

<sometime later>

 

I've been looking at your picture guide, well just the pictures in the image section. Was a Skyrim version ever created?  If my graphics card can handle SE when it comes out, I might try WB for installing USLEEP's SE version and work from there.  But for now, my daughter has a profile on MO and I don't want to screw her game up.  

[IsharaMeradin]

Oh my, it does what? Now I can see where all MO-related problems come from. So if I'm understanding this right it actually allows packaged assets to be loaded in a different load order than the ESPs?

Have a read from a thread where I asked for MO support regarding such a situation:  http://forum.step-project.com/topic/11070-bsa-management-off-yet-a-bsa-is-taking-priority-over-loose-files/

[dAb]

Have a read from a thread where I asked for MO support regarding such a situation:  http://forum.step-project.com/topic/11070-bsa-management-off-yet-a-bsa-is-taking-priority-over-loose-files/

 

Wow, lol. Things like that could make me bald.

[alt3rn1ty]

Where is this Wrye Bash topic located?  A search here for 'Wrye Bash' didn't yield a topic dedicated to Wrye Bash at least not one that I recognized.  If it is the thread over at BethSoft, those point to the same instructions as linked in the utility.

 

Egad...  I've read that thing and looked at it so much in the past and only just now discovered that if you hover over the first abbreviated term (i.e. BAIN) that there is a tool tip that appears explaining what it is.  You know how hard it is to understand something when you don't know what the letters mean?  I would never have thought to do that, the mouse just happened to come to rest above one of them and a tool tip appeared.

 

<sometime later>

 

I've been looking at your picture guide, well just the pictures in the image section. Was a Skyrim version ever created?  If my graphics card can handle SE when it comes out, I might try WB for installing USLEEP's SE version and work from there.  But for now, my daughter has a profile on MO and I don't want to screw her game up.  

 

Well, it is a bit confusing because Utumno who is now lead on everything programming / refactoring Wrye Bash, wants one channel to cummunicate with the community, so has chosen the Oblivion forum because the biggest collection of dedicated users of Wrye Bash hang out there, even Skyrim users go there to see whats developed recently if they dont reference GitHub.

 

Heres the most recent one http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1606578-wrye-bash-thread-111/

 

( PS in the second post of that topic, at the very end, there is a link to "Bleeding Edge 307", you can download the most recent Installer from there .. I am using the current Standalone installed from that installer )

 

 

Reference a Skyrim version of the Pictorial Guide - No not yet, when all the refactoring and patchers are updated for Skyrim Wrye Bash and I can get my teeth into something that is close to completion when its done ( and if I still have time to do something like that again when the time comes ), thats when I set my sights on doing it. Before making all the images and then finishing up with them in pdf's, I would rather get close to the finished thing instead of having to redo it all over and over again each time more features for Skyrim are added.

 

But theres not much difference to be honest, if you are used to extracting all your BSAs to get at source files for Skyrim, you will be familiar with all the sets of folders you can employ within your sub-packages as replacers paths, and the patchers for Skyrim are very limited compaired with Oblivions full set. Otherwise there have been a few changes to Context menus ..

 

.. Basicly if you follow the Oblivion guide not too literally and allowing for changes to Skyrim modding there is not much difference really.

[Hana]

My solution to having multiple complex mod installations with loose files overwriting each others at the same time is to have multiple Skyrim data folders that I switch to (by renaming the folder) based on what character I want to play (you do have to remember to switch out your mod manager's configuration files too at the same time). This way it's easy to try out new things in a separate data folder.

Exactly what I do too.

[fireundubh]

I think you never used WB because it handles that automatically since Morrowind era. This is the main reason why WB users don't understand all the fuss with MO and it's VFS - introducing a new level of complexity on user shoulders to solve the already solved problem.

 

I used Wrye Bash for a long, long time, and even held out when NMM's predecessor came along. I held out when MO came along, too.

 

"Anneal" is an awful word. When you use MO, you don't need to know what "anneal" means and you don't need to manually do it. You just uncheck a box and you're done.

 

Wow, lol. Things like that could make me bald.

MO's conflict detection system is atrocious and dumb. I took Tannin to task awhile ago because 90% of the conflicts identified by MO were not actual conflicts but duplicates.

If you ignore all of the totally useless conflict detection stuff, MO is a very easy-to-use mod manager.

[lmstearn]

"Anneal" is an awful word

Never came across this word until Wrye Bash came along. Because WB is menu driven, inserting a tooltip over these words in- menu is a little bit awkward.

[IsharaMeradin]

Never came across this word until Wrye Bash came along. ...

Same here.  Tho when I was a kid I knew 'a Neil'     

[zilav]

"Anneal" is an awful word. When you use MO, you don't need to know what "anneal" means and you don't need to manually do it. You just uncheck a box and you're done.

My average game runs to mod manager runs ratio is probably 50:1, this means I adjust something with installed mods only once per 50 game executions. I'd rather click "Anneal" once and don't bother running mod manager in background (and deal with other VFS implications) for 50 game sessions. I'm pretty sure majority of users have even larger ratio. But if your situation is different then sure, MO is a better choice for you.