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Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods


Leonardo

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Seeing the backlash so far, it makes me wonder what he's waiting for :P

 

I don't think I've ever seen this many downvotes before.  And the comment below his was gilded 21 times.  I haven't seen that many gildings at once either.

 

Also, Skyrim's Steam user rating has dropped from 98% to 88%.  It's gained over 15,000 negative reviews since paid modding was unveiled. It only had ~100,000 total reviews then.

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Then there's the issue of stealing mod ideas. Arthmoor made a paid mod to clean up castle at the end of Dawn Guard. That's a pretty obvious choice for a mod, what if someone else makes a free version, or makes a different chargeable version? At what point does Arthmoor's economic right to profit from his work trump the historical right of modders to keep remaking other people's mods in a different way?

 

I have thought quite a bit about this very thing.  Hypothetically, I have a certain mod idea that hasn't been done yet.  I could put it up for $0.25, but then once this idea is out there someone will inevitably do the exact same thing but for free--probably to spite the paid version.  The issue in this case is that my idea is innovative, as it hasn't been done before and very few if any even realize it can be done.   However, once the mod is out there, anyone can see how I'm doing it and then just copy the general method but with their own assets.

 

So do I "own" this method because I'm the one who innovated it?  Does it matter more if I innovated it specifically to profit?

 

And, what about the opposite?  I put it up for free on Nexus, and someone decides to rip the idea and put it up on Steam for beaucoup bucks.  Cloning mods hasn't really been a thing before*, because what would be the point?  There is already a mod available that does X or Y, so your own mod that does X or Y isn't really going to garner any attention unless it can manage to set itself apart.  In which case you usually just abandon the idea of your own version since modding is just a hobby and takes lots of time.  But now you have the free sector and the paid sector to deal with.  You might think it's a good time to lay claim to whatever niche mod X or Y belongs to with your own, paid version.  (I can't help but envision a land rush analogy.)

 

So, right now we have a fairly sparse paid sector, and a free sector ripe with clonable mod ideas.  We now have $$$ as incentive to steal these ideas.  So how long until all the most popular mods get paid clones?  It's this fear that I think will drive many with unique or innovative mods to sell their works on the paid Workshop even if they didn't really want to--simply to lay claim to their original idea before anyone else can steal it.**   Even if Valve doesn't care that another paid clone might be infringing, at least you established it on the Workshop first.

 

* I'm refusing the notion that things like the million Whiterun overhauls are clones of each other.  City (or weather, lighting) overhauls are incredibly vague concepts... hardly original and rarely innovative.  Though it would be a clone to make a near exact replica of JK's Whiterun.  Would the Nexus allow a near exact replica?  Would Steam?

 

** Depending on the original mod's complexity, the author might not have to worry about clones any time soon.  So expect to see the easier to clone mods first.

 

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What I'm terrified of happening is modders--in "protest"--putting up clones of paid mods on Nexus.  Then the paid mod creators catch wind of this, Valve catches wind of this, and soon Valve's lawyers brand Nexus as a haven for mod piracy.  Obviously the moderators at the Nexus don't stand for straight-up piracy, but say in Arthmoor's castle example, I'm not sure what Nexus's stance on a legal clone of his mod would be.  Though I'm sure from Valve's point of view, they'll be much more likely to brand it as infringement.

 

Then, the first time Nexus obeys a DMCA from Valve, everything becomes free game.  All free mods now exist at the mercy of Valve.  After all, is Robin really going to try going up against Valve for any of the DMCAs they issue?

 

Ironically, I bet they would devote the time and resources to issuing DMCAs over "their" paid mods.  All the while infringement and theft were generally rampant on their own Workshop and they hardly cared until that one troll stole mine and others' mods and the internet made a huge deal about it.  These days I'm not sure how quickly they respond to reports of infringement on the Workshop, but I'm going to closely monitor the "Under Review" paid mods to see how many stolen mods slip through the cracks.

 

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An enormous issue with this review system is that to even prove a mod is infringing your own work, you must PURCHASE IT.  Unless they are dumb enough to say they've taken your assets, or have photographs of your assets, the only way to prove infringement is to look at the files.  You can't access the files until you buy it, and you can't buy it until it leaves "Under Review"!

 

So, you are forced to buy your own stolen mod just to prove it's yours.  At which point you can be "refunded".  I quote because it's actually refunded to your Steam wallet, i.e. store credit. 

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They wouldn't be Valve DMCAs. Valve has no actual legal standing to file those except for their own content. It seems as though some people are assuming that we signed over all rights to Valve and/or Bethesda. That didn't happen. We still retain copyright on the items which is why any DMCA claims would be coming from the individual authors, not from Valve or Bethesda.

 

As far as a statement from the UPP for the project, yes, I probably need to stop being lazy and go whip something official up about it.

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That is most certainly a wise idea Arth.

Jon, you raise some good points. I think in the long run, original ideas will not be a way to make lots of money on the workshop, because as you said, while they may be hard to come up with, they are easy to copy and an idea is hard to keep as yourselves (not sure how to word this propperly).

I think the line where it starts paying out is mods that couple idea with technicality and artistry. Like isoku's mods or yours. It's not just the idea of how to apply a decal with each footstep, but also the fiddly work of aligning it propperly under a myriard of conditions and the artistry to make it look good under various ones.

As for lighting mods: Somehow i doubt this will become a problem. They are an artform in itself, and so far have offered enough freedom, that modderes seemed more content to trying their luck with their own vision of lighting, than copying others. Also, the first payed lighting mod came with lots of custom textures as well. So sets the bar quite high for payed content in that area. Now big quest mods and follower mods will hardly be copied. They are simply a lot of work already. I mean, ok if the modding scene becomes big enough, and just as an example, you could get filthy rich with the invention of a cool blue kahjiit follower, other's might be inclined to try their luck at a badass green kahjiit. There would hardly be anything you could do against it as a semi- professional modder. But then again, i'm not even sure it would cut into your sales all that much.

All those small mods that you can whip up in the ck in 5 minutes on the other hand? Don't even bother thinking about how much they may be worth. They're too simple, really, even if finding the right setting took a long time in the first place.

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As far as a statement from the UPP for the project, yes, I probably need to stop being lazy and go whip something official up about it.

 

Maybe with :

 

65163-1-1430290057.png

 

Click it - goes to : http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65163/?

[ url = http: //www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65163/? ] [ img ] http: //static-1.nexusmods.com/15/mods/110/images/65163-1-1430290057.png [ /img ] [ /url ]

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I think more stuff like this needs to get posted:

 

 

And less with the divisive hatemongering other people are doing.

 

@alt: IMO, I find badges and logos like that to be counterproductive because they contribute to being divisive rather than being a united community. I get why people do it, but I don't approve because in the end it just creates feelings of resentment.

 

A simple statement on the subject should suffice for our purposes. Whenever I get around to it :P

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I don't think the upp should adopt one such overly dramatic stance, neither will it be seen in good light by those that associate themselves with such an emblem, because i doubt everyone involved with upp will support the idea of 'no money for mods, ever', and neither should they (e.g. Afk mods is listed as a service provider)

The system currently is bad, it is wonky, it divides the community, and it needs to improve, so it's impact on the modding culture will be more positive than harmfull. It needs to be finetuned, with more care being taken that a helpfull culture with lots of exchange will still be a thing in the future. But i believe these are all thing that are possible in a semi-payed market. So i don't feel like protesting and boycotting payed mods as a concept.

As i outlined above, i feel the level where a mod becomes awesome and unique enough to provide a continued income for the modder is high. So don't expect me for example to put any of my mods up on the workshop (for money). I know i wouldn't pay for them. But don't expect me to boycot modders who do, either. I won't stop maintaining a popular compatibility patch of on of my mods, just because said mod is now a paid mod. I might however stop doing so, should it become unpopular, to the point where there are just too little people playing with it, to bother (which may or may not indirectly be related to the price).

But at any rate, i don't think i would side with the people united behind that logo. I also don't protest pro-gamers and still enjoy gaming as a hobby, even though the gaming industry has now shifted to cater to them with lots of mobas and stuff. I doubt anybody feels they now have less games in other genres thanks to that. I neither think that payed mods will have an influence on the free mods that will be available. Sure a moddder you like(d) may switch to payed content, but then new modders will take his place. A shift inside a community, where suddenly some members may make a living off of it, doesn't necessarily impact the hobbyists as much as some may fear. Just look at sports.

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I just read what was posted in the USKP thread and I think that's perfect. Should put many at ease I think. A banner like what was suggested though Is a little extreme I think.

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Yep the FAQ first paragraph looks good to me too.
 

Will the unofficial patches ever cost money now that Valve and Bethesda are allowing paid content?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: The unofficial patches are a community driven effort in probably the purest possible way. It would be wrong of us to attempt to capitalize on that by suddenly shifting to a for-profit model for these patches. Even if there were to be some super simple way to remove all of the logistical and legal barriers to trying it, we still wouldn't do it. Put simply: It would be wrong on so many levels. So no. The unofficial patches will never cost money. They will always remain free.

If we are involved in the effort to generate unofficial patches for Fallout 4 and/or Elder Scrolls VI, those will also remain free.

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Well, the first thought that came after the video was "let's be upbeat about it"

One has no other recourse, when most of the profits from one's work are going to line the pockets of corporate lawyers & fatcats.

It's rather ironical that folks who do modding do so to get away from all that worldly stuff in the first place.

Even more ironical is that most of the corporates in the industry (or should we say institutions?) are actually very much of the same opinion. :P

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Just found this spot checking of the Steam paid mods. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you should only buy mods from authors you trust. It's a damn mess.

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Hah well there you have it, it's a shame we didn't have that from the start as I'm sure it would have saved everyone from having to rage so much. Those pictures might not be much themselves but what they are saying is even bigger.

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That pretty well summarizes my point of view. Seriously, if Bethesda wants to make money on modders' back with a more than 3 years old game, then they should definitely hire them, give them a decent job with a decent contract of employment and a decent retribution. And I'm pretty sure they would pay much attention to the quality of what they would release. I'd completely approve the idea to design new DLCs or paid quality mods. 

 

Instead, the workshop will become a garbage dump full of sh---y micro-deals mods with poor (or non-existent) support. Ridiculous benefits for modders, lured customers, huge profits for V & B with absolutely no risk/responsibility for them !  :yuck:

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Following up on this:
 

An enormous issue with this review system is that to even prove a mod is infringing your own work, you must PURCHASE IT.  Unless they are dumb enough to say they've taken your assets, or have photographs of your assets, the only way to prove infringement is to look at the files.  You can't access the files until you buy it, and you can't buy it until it leaves "Under Review"!
 
So, you are forced to buy your own stolen mod just to prove it's yours.  At which point you can be "refunded".  I quote because it's actually refunded to your Steam wallet, i.e. store credit.

 
Refunding a mod purchase will, without warning, ban you from the Steam Community Market for 7 days.  (Image found on Reddit)

 

So, if you buy one mod to check it for infringement, find that it's infringing, report it, and then ask for a refund,  Valve rewards you by banning you from purchasing or getting refunds on anything else for 7 days. 

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That pretty well summarizes my point of view. Seriously, if Bethesda wants to make money on modders' back with a more than 3 years old game, then they should definitely hire them, give them a decent job with a decent contract of employment and a decent retribution. And I'm pretty sure they would pay much attention to the quality of what they would release. I'd completely approve the idea to design new DLCs or paid quality mods. 

 

Instead, the workshop will become a garbage dump full of sh---y micro-deals mods with poor (or non-existent) support. Ridiculous benefits for modders, lured customers, huge profits for V & B with absolutely no risk/responsibility for them !  :yuck:

 

The part that seems especially problematic to me is what happens if paid mods are released before a game is finally patched? No one in their right mind would buy a mod that's likely to be broken in the near future.

 

I think Greenlight really is an apt comparison here: it's just a way to make money off of idiots. Thankfully, the world is full of them. :troll:

 

For Skyrim at least, we might see some quality content. Going forward... not so much.

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Just found this spot checking of the Steam paid mods. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you should only buy mods from authors you trust. It's a damn mess.

This person invalidated their entire post by pirating all of the mods. That's not acceptable under any circumstances.

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This person invalidated their entire post by pirating all of the mods. That's not acceptable under any circumstances.

I didn't notice that the first go-around, good catch. Then again, this should be an opportunity to see the free market in action. Why is their DRM on games but not mods? Maybe someone can find a way to DRM-ify mods and make a tidy profit doing so.

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I think in the long run, original ideas will not be a way to make lots of money on the workshop, because as you said, while they may be hard to come up with, they are easy to copy and an idea is hard to keep as yourselves (not sure how to word this propperly).

I think the line where it starts paying out is mods that couple idea with technicality and artistry. Like isoku's mods or yours. It's not just the idea of how to apply a decal with each footstep, but also the fiddly work of aligning it propperly under a myriard of conditions and the artistry to make it look good under various ones.

 

Which is why copyright doesn't protect ideas, only implementations. Ideas aren't worth anything without the work required to make them into something people can benefit from. If someone independently does the work to make a mod that is similar to some other mod, there shouldn't be a problem. Let the best implementation win. People will weigh the price of a particular implementation in their own valuation of which one is the "best". Some will prefer a free implementation, others will be willing to pay. But trying to stake out some mental territory, and claiming that nobody else can try to make something similar, only hurts the community. Protecting ideas, rather than expressions, inappropriately rewards people just for being "first", rather than "best".

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I cannot believe that pirating mods is a thing now. Then again I never thought any of this would happen so maybe it shouldn't be all that surprising.

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This person invalidated their entire post by pirating all of the mods. That's not acceptable under any circumstances.

 

 

Except they didn't - the points are still valid and, in fact, you can't say he pirated anything. It's entirely possible he's using someone else's Steam Account to run his Skyrim setup (irrc there's nothing that says you can't let someone else play on your account).

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Except they didn't - the points are still valid and, in fact, you can't say he pirated anything. It's entirely possible he's using someone else's Steam Account to run his Skyrim setup (irrc there's nothing that says you can't let someone else play on your account).

I think the acknowledgement at the bottom of r/modpiracy is where Arth got the idea that he pirated the mods, which seems likely.

 

The bugs... well... we can't even trust Bethesda to make a game run for more than a few minutes without dry-heaving its guts out after paying $60 at launch, I don't see why we'd expect much better for $0.99. I'm with Jim Sterling on this one, going forward it's going to be a way for scammers to part the naive with their money with Valve and future developers' blessings.

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This person invalidated their entire post by pirating all of the mods. That's not acceptable under any circumstances.

Inacceptable behavior, maybe. But inacceptable as evidence like in a juristictional way? Meh, don't think so. I think his points still stand, despite the fact that the evidence was obtained by illegal means. I'm not a judge, i just want to know what kind of quality i can expect from these valve cross-game mods. I don't require legal evidence for that. Any evidence will do.

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Following up on this:

 

 

Refunding a mod purchase will, without warning, ban you from the Steam Community Market for 7 days.  (Image found on Reddit)

 

So, if you buy one mod to check it for infringement, find that it's infringing, report it, and then ask for a refund,  Valve rewards you by banning you from purchasing or getting refunds on anything else for 7 days. 

 

That's a common rule with every self refund (pre-orders for example). Not specific to workshop at all, and it's clearly explained in the Steam Market FAQ.

 

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1047-edfm-2932

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Except they didn't - the points are still valid and, in fact, you can't say he pirated anything. It's entirely possible he's using someone else's Steam Account to run his Skyrim setup (irrc there's nothing that says you can't let someone else play on your account).

No, they definitely did, or there's no reason to cite Reddit as the source of the material.

 

IMO, all credibility goes out the window when you do something like that. You can have the most noble intentions possible, but being a thief makes you nothing more than a thief. Period.

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