Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

[Jon]

@Arth ... I have no opinion on Robin accepting the suggestion to become a Service Provider, but I agree that he definitely knew about paid mods before writing that article last month.  I think I said as much back then too.

 

He expounds on the whole Service Provider thing in this comment.   He says he was contacted "a few weeks ago", which might be the same time we (NifTools) were contacted about being Service Providers, but I already unofficially knew about it an entire month before then.

 

----

 

FYI,  Chesko deleted his Reddit account.  One would assume he's going to pull away from the Nexus too, as he said as much in that post. 

[Leonardo]

People clamor on about "donate instead" but that's simply not happening in practice.

In case you haven't read it, but DarkOne (scroll down to the end of donations) has already stated that the donation system on Nexus has changed, so now can you either disable or enable donation and donations are no longer global across the file pages.

[Arthmoor]

Chesko is wildly overreacting to what amounts to a few trolls. Pulling out over that is just, well I dunno.

 

The situation with FNIS is actually not as cut and dry as Fore thinks. If his argument was legally sound we'd all be in deep shit for using any sort of software to do anything at all.

 

Yes, I'm aware of what DarkOne has posted. I think it's a move in the right direction and should have been done that way from the start.

[Deathbydestiny]

SkyUI is apparently going to be going on sale.   Honestly, it reads like a joke/sarcasm, but then Mardoxx said this.

 

Having already known paid mods were coming, I figured that is what reinvigorated SkyUI development when Mardoxx posted this WIP a month ago.  I'm pretty sure that they already said that the last version they released was final and it was no longer going to be developed.  (Here's at least one instance in which they said this.)

 

So, I'll spare judgment until I see prices and changelogs, but at least the one takeaway is that paid mods managed to jump start new development on Skyrim's most popular mod. 

 

Wow, I'm at a loss for words. This is only going to get worse now.

[zilav]

Honestly, paid mods don't bother me too much, there are cons and pros as with any other change in an established system.

But what I'm really interested... is will they extend this to consoles in future games in cooperation with MS and Sony? I doubt those companies will silently stay aside looking at how Valve gets it's cut from mods. That would be a real huge game changer, we all know consoles have much better sales than PC and console players are more likely to pay.

[Jon]

Oh lord.  So Give Me Money For No Reason just surpassed me in votes for File of the Month.  In a little over a day it's gotten 194 votes.  I will admit I let out a huge laugh when I looked at the main page and saw this.

 

----

 

So it's official that SkyUI will become paid only:

 

Well... currently, the plan is the following:

• Upload new version for minimum $1 (pay-what-you-want) on SW.
• Keep old version for free as it is on both Nexus and SW.
• Service provider split would go to Nexus to support the site even if I can't host the free version there.
• Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so I won't try to force you to upgrade or pull any other stupid stunt like that.

 

I did the math, and let's pretend that the new version will end up getting as many downloads over the next 4 years that SkyUI did over the previous 4 years.

 

Total Unique Downloads:  4,471,779

 

Date of 1.0 release: December 17, 2011

Days since 1.0 release: 1224

 

Unique downloads per day: 3653.41

 

At the quoted minimum $1 (pay-what-you-want) that is:

 

Minimum $/day: 3653.41

 

Breakdown:

 

$/day, Valve + Bethesda: 2557.39

$/day, Service Providers: 182.67

$/day, Content Creators: 913.35

 

$/mo, Valve + Bethesda: 76721.70

$/mo, Service Providers: 5480.10

$/mo, Content Creators: 27400.50

 

$/yr, Valve + Bethesda: 28,003,420.50

$/yr, Service Providers: 2,000,236.50

$/yr, Content Creators: 10,001,182.50

 

.......

......

....

 

So we know that SkyUI is not going to garner anywhere near the same number of downloads per day after going behind a paywall.  But even if it's ONE TENTH, the SkyUI creators still make $1 MILLION in a year.  Valve and Beth make $2.8 MILLION in a year.  I'm sorry, but I just don't think any kind of mod deserves that much money.  Valve and Beth certainly don't deserve $2.8 million just for SkyUI existing. That amount of money is more suited for funding an entirely new (indie) game, not a mod.

 

If they only get ONE HUNDREDTH the annual downloads that is still $280,000 going to Valve/Bethesda and $100,000 going to the creators.  Depending on how they split the revenue, that could be enough for some of them to quit their jobs.  But should SkyUI really be a full-time job?  It's already mostly finished, with not much left to do.

 

However, for NEW games like Fallout 4 and TES VI, I can see $1 for a UI mod being a good way of assuring full-time development.  I will never agree with the creator only getting 25% though.

[Deathbydestiny]

Honestly, paid mods don't bother me too much, there are cons and pros as with any other change in an established system.

But what I'm really interested... is will they extend this to consoles in future games in cooperation with MS and Sony? I doubt those companies will silently stay aside looking at how Valve gets it's cut from mods. That would be a real huge game changer, we all know consoles have much better sales than PC and console players are more likely to pay.

 

Dear god no, NO.

 

Lets not make the gaming industry worse than it is.

 

 

So we know that SkyUI is not going to garner anywhere near the same number of downloads per day after going behind a paywall.  But even if it's ONE TENTH, the SkyUI creators still make $1 MILLION in a year.  Valve and Beth make $2.8 MILLION in a year.  I'm sorry, but I just don't think any kind of mod deserves that much money.  Valve and Beth certainly don't deserve $2.8 million just for SkyUI existing. That amount of money is more suited for funding an entirely new (indie) game, not a mod.

 

If they only get ONE HUNDREDTH the annual downloads that is still $280,000 going to Valve/Bethesda and $100,000 going to the creators.  Depending on how they split the revenue, that could be enough for some of them to quit their jobs.  But should SkyUI really be a full-time job?  It's already mostly finished, with not much left to do.

 

However, for NEW games like Fallout 4 and TES VI, I can see $1 for a UI mod being a good way of assuring full-time development.  I will never agree with the creator only getting 25% though.

 

Sure the numbers sound nice don't they? I try my best to like capitalism I do, but this is nothing more than an example of the dark and scary side of it. This is truly human nature at it's finest.

[Arthmoor]

Needless to say, I knew the SkyUI thing was coming 5 weeks ago. I don't have one bit of a problem with it. If he makes millions off of it, more power to him. I don't think it'll happen, but if it does, it does. If it bombs out and he makes barely $300, then so be it. That's the free market.

 

I haven't ever posted much on the subject but I am absolutely fine with someone being able to make an actual living off of the mods they make. Why shouldn't they since it's basically the same thing as freelance artists making money off of the things they paint/draw/sculpt/etc and nobody has a problem with that. Do pixels on a screen somewhere somehow change this? Cause there's plenty of people making a mint on digital art too and nobody has a problem with that either. I just don't see why "it's modding" should mean "never make a dime".

 

As far as the file of the month thing, that's just plain stupid and immature on the part of both the mod author AND the people voting. There, I said it.

[Khugan]

Modding is the kiddy-pool of the gaming industry and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. The kiddy-pool is very important. It's where you learn the ropes, hone your skills, and make some friends. In this community, you can learn to create mesh, textures, and even develop software tools that benefit everyone. For many people, a  mod is your highschool or college homework. Before being hired by a gaming company, they sometimes want to see what mods you have made. I don't think it garantees you entry into the adult pool, but it is certainly a  nessassary step in the path. Success as a modder can bring losts of thumbs up, name recognition, perhaps a passing grade, or even a tip in the tip jar. Respect certainly comes. People take your words as the gosbeI and you become a sort of wise mentor or sage of the community. (for better or for worse) Ultimately, you get a hands on pseudo-education. You get to taste it. You get to decide if this is a career for you before you get the student loan, your parents plop down the cash for that major.

 

Deathbydestiny says, "I try my best to like capitalism I do, but..." I understand exactly what he means. If a modder moved on to develop a real game, he would most likely cheer them on and maybe even purchase their product if it was any good. I don't think many have a problem with someone making a buck off of their labors and I don't think anyone should expect something for free. The key phrase though is "moved on" This pool should not be a place where you excercise your capitalistic muscle. It will only sully and dirty the waters. (it already has and you know it) Paying for mods divides and subtracts and only really adds to Valve and Beth in this situation. People stop thinking the way they did before. Everything is suddenly seen through the lenz of a dollar bill. Everyone starts being concerned about their cut and the kiddy-pool is no longer a place anyone wants to be. How many of you can say your happy about this change? How's your gut?

 

If there is truly nothing wrong with what is going on, and we all just need to get on board, and quit crying, then tell me, Arthmoor, why don't you put the USKPs up for sale? Now THAT would be a cash cow for sure! It would be a prime example of capitalism in action. People would buy eventually, they would have to. I respect you, I really do. There are not many that have dedicated as much time and effort as you have to this community, and nothing can change that, but my ability to make money is not your problem and it's also not my problem about yours. I trully wish you success in what you do. I don't know if I have answered your question about the subject of greed and capitalism, I'll let others decide that, but the modding community is no place for exchanging cash beyond tips.

 

Khugan

[Arthmoor]

My gut is just fine, thanks. I'll quote my response to a similar question on Nexus:

Well you COULD share the revenues with as many people as would agree to friend you and then provide the required information to Valve. So it's not impossible. It would be a logistical nightmare to set up though.

That's not why the patches are staying free though. They're staying free because they're a community driven effort in the purest sense of the phrase. It would simply be wrong to sell something that multiple people have contributed to the making of. There's a hell of a lot more folks than just who's listed in the readme file. Countless tracker submissions etc.

IMO, there's also no shame in wanting to make a bit of coin off of work you've done.

 

I've seen no logical arguments being made for why modders should be expected to do what they do without the possibility of being paid for it. All I've seen is thousands of posts across dozens of forums that are filled with hate, death threats, and racist comments about modders wanting to make a buck. I've even seen them on the official BGS forums where you cross-posted your reply to. Well, the racist and hate filled stuff anyway, not the death threats.

 

I think the only real issue worth debating at this point is the execution of how it's all come about. Cat's out of the bag, it's not going anywhere, but it could probably use some work to make it less distasteful for some people.

[garthand]

My gut is just fine, thanks. I'll quote my response to a similar question on Nexus:

 

 

 

I've seen no logical arguments being made for why modders should be expected to do what they do without the possibility of being paid for it. All I've seen is thousands of posts across dozens of forums that are filled with hate, death threats, and racist comments about modders wanting to make a buck. I've even seen them on the official BGS forums where you cross-posted your reply to. Well, the racist and hate filled stuff anyway, not the death threats.

 

I think the only real issue worth debating at this point is the execution of how it's all come about. Cat's out of the bag, it's not going anywhere, but it could probably use some work to make it less distasteful for some people.

I'm with you on that last point. I would be very much more comfortable with this model if more money was actually going to the modders themselves. As is the "support modders you like" argument feels a little hollow given that so little is actually going to them. If the share was closer to 50-60%, I would feel much more inclined to pay for mods. As is, it feels like an arbitrage fee charged by Valve and Bethesda to wring some money out of someone else's hard work. I appreciate that 25% is better than 0%, but being bludgeoned is also better than being eaten alive; neither are good on their own merits.

 

Arth, do you think there's anything the Steam community can do to convince Valve and Bethesda to increase the modders' cut, or do they seem pretty set on this 75% hosting tax?

[lmstearn]

The dictates of H/W can also feature in the install/setup facility.

Consider leasing a 200 mod install:

For skint $5.00 a month users, you know, the ones like me with a minimum rig, package a feature and FPS light version.

Middle of the range benchmarking for a Regular or Standard system, say $10-15 per month.

High end might be $20 or more, benefiting from the hiqhest quality meshes, textures and content.

Ask for any more money and mind the stampede to the exit gates.

Aaannd Valve might offer discounts on mod bundles for the budget conscious.

All this will bring into strong focus the critical appraisal of mods via the star rating system.

The big worry is a Steam_centric universe. What will be the ultimate fate of helper sites like TesAlliance and the UESP, and -er- TESNexus?

 

or do they seem pretty set on this 75% hosting tax?

25% for a modder? Should be at the very least 75%. I'd rather wash my hands of them and just go free (and broke).

[Arthmoor]

Arth, do you think there's anything the Steam community can do to convince Valve and Bethesda to increase the modders' cut, or do they seem pretty set on this 75% hosting tax?

Not unless you could get the other affected communities on board before too many more games get support for this. A bunch of noisy hateful trolls posting petitions filled with racist comments won't cut it though, which is IMO all that's out there at the moment.

[NoTearsJustDreamsNow]

There is no doubt about the fact that Valve/Beth is only doing this to stuff their wallets from the creativity of others. But, we are at a crossroads in terms of the Modding community as a whole. At this point we will never be able to go back to what we once were, there is no debate about that. At the current juncture we are a community divided, with anger about change dictating us. I, like many others am annoyed about this change and, indeed, frightened for the rammifications of this going into the future, but I'm also hopeful for the monetization of content.

 

The mod "marketplace" is different in a myriad of ways from any other marketplace, because it is solely electronic, and it is not standalone material (like games). However, as in any marketplace money can be an incentive and a driver to benefit the community as a whole. The problem with the current situation is, the infrastructure to go about doing so is absolutely god awful. The Steam marketplace is fine enough for standalone games, but not content such as ours. Moreover, as we can see with other Valve projects, i.e: Steam Greenlight, that are very poorly moderated, meaning that any two bit mod can be monetized and start making money off of the ignorance of others.

 

To be able to enact monetization we must examine very closely all of the facets of our community and extract appropriate services, limitations, support, etc. for this content. We must also understand what content deserves to be monetized, and within this the author/s' role in content creation; permissions and team build mods. To do so requires extensive data collection and a fair amount of trial and error to see what works and what doesn't.

 

Considering this, with close moderation and testing of every single mod that wants to be monetized, it will provide incentive to content creators to actually provide quality content that deserves to be monetized at all, as well as maintain it and provide adequate support. Of course this means that there will have to be royaltys paid to Bethesda, but there will be a much more equitable share given to the content creators themselves and remove Steam/Valve.

 

Furthermore, and this is just spitballing, in terms of monetized content that's passed all of the parameters, there should be a maximum timeframe that exists before the mod goes free for everyone. This provides an opportunity cost between time and money, allowing everyone to get actual quality content.

 

We must do this because there is virtually no other way, Valve isn't going to back down from this poorly executed joke and the ignorant and greedy are going to continue to use and abuse this system. We cannot return to what we once were, despite the grassroots effort to do so, it's no skin off their nose to keep running it, it's basically free money for them. So we must create an alternative for the community, by the community. In doing so we will not only ensure that our community does not suffer, we will thrive due to the new and quality content provided, as well as an influx of fresh modders looking to make it big.

[Arthmoor]

I made a post yesterday about DarkOne being a hypocrite for agreeing to be a service provider. That was said before he clarified that he's not against the idea of modders making money, and in fact demonstrated he's supportive of the idea. So ignore that part of what I said, and apologies to DarkOne for having done so without asking him first.

 

I don't agree with the idea of imposing a time limit on how long you can charge for a mod. Market forces are already going to dictate how long something will continue to be worth paying for. For all the talk people are throwing around about capitalism ruining everything, I guarantee you socialism and/or communism are not the answers to the problem.

[Elgar]

I made a post yesterday about DarkOne being a hypocrite for agreeing to be a service provider. That was said before he clarified that he's not against the idea of modders making money, and in fact demonstrated he's supportive of the idea. So ignore that part of what I said, and apologies to DarkOne for having done so without asking him first.

 

I was about to post about that, nice to see your rectification.

 

About the whole thing, I posted before that I was disappointed by this big change. I must admit though that you made good points. And let's face it : if users, myself included, had regularly made little donations for some of the mods they enjoy daily, modders would have probably never accepted/needed the Valve/Bethesda deal. Because donation = 100% for the modder, workshop payment = 25%. So that's because we, users, failed to support modders and their hard work, that we now have the workshop. And we can't blame modders for hoping some money for hours and hours of modding. We, users, are responsible for this new situation.

 

I am currently much more disgusted by this incredible stream of insults against deserving modders, and much more disappointed by the "community" of users.

[alt3rn1ty]

What is it they say ..

 

There's no such thing as bad publicity, its all good advertising - Or something similar

 

Its a different game now. A lot of the controversy will be good for anyone wanting to make money, so whatever comments can kick up more stink = Profits.

 

Money making tactics are in play already.

 

The community we love has been forever tainted if not ruined by introducing the root of all evil.

 

I have nothing against people wanting to make money, but it was inevitable the community will be broken by this move.

 

My only gripe is where previously free resources in support of a mod under the old spirit of things, are now still being used by people who are selling their mods .. Without consulting all parties prior to the launch. As Arthmoor says, there was no actual NDA ( Non Disclosure Agreement ), so third parties could have been given a PM at least. The original understanding is null and void imho, the author has broken a trust.

 

 

Another bad side to this - And here is the first of probably many such disclaimers http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516831-wipzrelz-trade-routes-v20-beta/

 

.. He felt a need to state that it will not be used for profit, so that he may still get willing volunteers to help test it.

 

I do not distrust this person, but if I were to participate now I would probably take screenshots and get a moderator witness to the declaration - People change as time goes on, as do their circumstances forced by desperate times.

What price for being a tester and helping out in forums supporting a paid for mod ?.

 

Edit : I loved Emma's post http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516850-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-8/page-6#entry23944942

[Arthmoor]

Another thing. These authors who are now "protesting" the situation by hiding their mods and saying they won't unhide them until condition X, Y, and Z are met. Protest away, but be aware you are harming noone but your own users by doing this. Many of them probably have no opinion on this one way or the other. I can see this backfiring on you guys in a BIG way.

[Elgar]

The community we love has been forever tainted if not ruined by introducing the root of all evil.

If you're quoting the Bible, it's actually "the love of money is the root of all evil", not the money itself. (1 Tim. 6:10.) Not exactly the same thing.

 

Sorry for being nit-picky. 

[alt3rn1ty]

Quote it ?, I have never read it. I like the Ten Commandments ( which I believe is a common set of rules amongst other religions too, or at least similar ), because I think they are a good set of rules to live by.

[lmstearn]

Quoting from Forbes Magazine

And sure, it’s Valve’s house and it’s Bethesda’s game, but both those companies made their money already. Bethesda built the game and sold it and its DLC. Valve hosted it on their platform. Now modders are essentially working for pennies on the dollar.

Compare this with the Apple Store, for instance, which gives content creators 70 percent of the cut. Even that seems a little low to me, but it’s a far cry higher than 25%.

[VaultDuke]

The content creators do receive 70% of the share. It's just that bethesda, as the company who provided the engine, toolset and the huge amount of assets, player install base and advertising front that is skyrim and it's dlcs, still sees the lion share of the developers' cut. Frankly, i don't see the problem. Try running a business, licensing engines and third party tools, and hop to steam greenlight if you think it is the whole 70% you want. Welcome to capitalism, by all accounts, you are treated rather fairly, even though health insurance and employer's rights may be lacking. Such is the fate of being a freelance develloper. Congratulations, you are now no longer merely a modder. Have fun.... or rather don't. Work hard, party hard is the new motto.

 

In all seriousness: it is nice that modders can now get monetary recognition for their work, and we need to applaude bethesda for taking that huge step and paying tribute to their modding community that much, by allowing them to provit off of their (bethesda's) work. But with all things money, this has been approached with a certain sense of business in mind. The individual modder get's a share, that is totally in line with what a freelancer can expect. This is basically what you are, or as what you are treated now, once you apply a price tag to your skyrim work. Don't expect that this modders share will go up in the future. It won't. if anything, it will go down, if bethesda decides to put more time end effort into improving the modding framework for their games in the future (like providing then functions now provided by the 'service provoders' themselves) themselves. You as a freelance creator are using their framework and player base at their discretion.

 

This is the story imho, which they are telling by giving modders the smaller part of the share. And this drastic shift to thinking about modding, that i outlined here, is what some fear will have a massive influence (for the worse) for the modding culture at large. It won't probably be this drastic. Probably it will mean that the modding scene, if anything, will broaden up and enlarge into more professional teritory, where some newcomers (and modders of old alike) will aproach modding from a business direction, where the rest will continue doing what they always did. Works the same in sports, music etc....

[lmstearn]

But... Bethesda has been on the free model for years, and doing quite well for their effort.

I'm happy to pay Bethesda- anyone- for their work, I'm not beholden to paying them for someone else's work.

As someone said in the locked Skyui forum on Nexus, they're happy to donate 25% to the modder. I'll up it a notch further and donate another 5% each to Steam and Beth.

Ya see, I have this weird jaundiced view of people that say they are going to do wonderful things when they get a lot of money. If the big companies were committed to actually making the software work better, they would have done so by now.

By a loan if need be.

Common, and good, business practice.

[VaultDuke]

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516854-midas-magic-spells-for-skyrim-xilverbulet-in-game-ads/

Oh the humanities. Let them charge for money, and they start acting like corporate entities. No need to feel sorry for them being treated like one, and having the profits of their work taken by a bigger company.

And bethesda hasn't received enough money for their work yet. It's theirs and they decide when they have, not the freelancers working on sideprojects for their game.

Ah it's so much easier, when you don't have to feel pity any more for anyone involved in this....

[alt3rn1ty]

Reference methods I alluded to in my previous post #67 for pushing the sale of your mods - Check this crap out :

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516854-midas-magic-spells-for-skyrim-xilverbulet-in-game-ads/

 

Idea, a free mod with in game advertising, which says go buy the full version from steam workshop to remove these ads

 

Nag mods

 

Edit : Gruftlord Ninja