Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

[VaultDuke]

good reads Leonardo!

edit: some more thought from me: currently, the prices all fell like it's 2006 'Horse Armor Time* again.
I also wonder what will happen to the mod translation communities? it seems non americans can not set up a banking account as easily.
And I wonder if the Workshop will improve as a mods hub. I personally am looking for better mod handling features, and the ability to revert mod updates, or at least stop the game from updating. It was bad enough already when it was free. I never downloaded anything from the workshop since 2012. If they want to become a thriving community where mod creators can make a living, in my eyes, they first need to improve the way users access the content.

Yeah, I do hope we will see some improvements, before or at the latest with the next Bethesda game

[KNakamura]

So, while I'm being a bit of devil's advocate, I don;'t actually think this is a bad thing. What I am afraid of has already started to happen: mod authors withdrawing support for free assets in a paid mod, even if the paid mod author wants to pay them (at least, he had better if he wants to use someone else's assets..)

 

 

That said, the $100 threshold after the cut is .. while standard, not something I would hve done for a mod..

[VaultDuke]

agree, I think it's ok as a creator to release your assets for free, but take money from those, who release payed mods using them. I think the doom-and-gloom attitude around "this is going to kill modding (as we know it)" is overly dramatic (and it's bascally the reason, why said asset/tool creators refuse to let their mods be used by commercial modders). but there are definatelly unresolved issues, that need to be worked out, or else; the doom-sayers might have a point.

 

I mean if Bethesda and valve continue to support and improve the workshop the way they did since skyrim's release.... the modding community will suffer imho. if the workshop wants to be at the core of modding, Bethesda needs to solve issues with the way their mods work. it needs built in features to resolve mod conflicts, load order needs to become a non issue, the mod limit needs to be removed (because honestly, nobody in their right might would fill their 250 precious places with crap like single high res weapons, right? right....?) etc...

they can no longer rely on external tools to do this work for them, it can not keep beginner mod users in their closed ecosystem, without providing proper tools within it. well they CAN, obviously, but this is what makes this whole thing look like a cheap shot at making some millions. or the workshop needs to open up to let the mods be downloaded and managed by external tools...

but I doubt valve will help them there, the games they provided with modding support did not suffer from such limitations. sadly, the mods available, or even possible there are much smaller in scope, or at least in their variety, then what is possible with Bethesda games. we have hardly seen any improvement on the workshop site by valve in the 3+ years since skyrims release. I doubt it'll happen, definatelly not a download API open to external programs.

 

just my 2 cents, but I feel anypne serious about their modding (from a user perspective) will agree, that such tools are a must, and the workshop downright hinders you in their use. I realize this is kind of a odd way to look at it, since on thing is the workshop as a release tool for modders (which apparently they are working on), the other is the workshop as a tool for users to get their mods. bottom oline: if they want to be the place where modders can make a lifing, they need to be the place where players go to to get there mods for better reasons than "the mod is workshop exclusive"

[lmstearn]

A comprehensive legal framework covering the three P's: Patent, Plagiarism and Piracy, will rip the very heart out of the fixture.

[Leonardo]

just my 2 cents

Here is another "Just my 2 cents" quoted post, which is exactly what I feel about paid mods.

[VaultDuke]

Btw also: For future games bethesda needs to think about paying modders from their very own money. I don't want the next game's unofficial patch project to remain free (as in: No money for those working on it) i don't want to pay 'extra' for it, either. There needs to be a way to upload fixes to the workshop and get royalties for it right from the developers themselves. If you are serious about modding and letting modders profit from their work, show us how serious you are, Bethesda!

[lmstearn]

I hate to say it, but a lease arrangement might work. By adding to cart one can rent a mod for 1 cent a month or buy it outright for 20 cents, say.

And compatible mods can buddy up to provide group discounts. For a quota of 200 mods expect to pay around $5.00 a month to lease.

The lease model rewards mod authors for continually providing support and updates, and also revs up the quality a bit.

Ructions will occur when needies turn to greedies and Mr In_Between_Steam wants a raise.

[Jon]

Well that was fast:  http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

 

...And I'm sorry Chesko, but you weren't under an NDA.  We were asked to remain hush-hush.  Not the same thing at all.  Isoku definitely asked people who contributed assets if he could continue using them with paid mods.

 

What I don't understand is that the mod didn't include FNIS.  Merely used it if one were to install FNIS.  So I'm not sure what legal basis Fore even had for asking for it to be taken down. 

[VaultDuke]

well, as before: Valve has no interest, in even getting as far as solving these issues on a "legal" basis. they pull the plug if there is the slightest sign they might get sued.

 

edit: new random thought: one positive of this is that more developers will start caring about the single player experience again. I wonder when the first "free to play, pay to mod" games will be released (which will be the downside of all this, and it WILL happen).

[KNakamura]

He claims control over derived files.

[Jon]

Official SKSE Stance ... also behippo gives his personal stance on the matter.

 

Officially

1. SKSE (and all of our other Script Extenders) will remain FREE to use for everyone. We will not charge anyone for it. Ever.
2. Creators of mods which depend upon SKSE must make their own choices regarding whether to ask for payment for their mods.
3. We will not receive any partial payment from those sales.
4. Reasons for #2 and #3: See #1.

[VaultDuke]

as I read between the lines, the main developers also have a job in the industry, that seems to deny them to make money out of software sold by them privately (probably a standard contract clause in their position or something).

[garthand]

Did some more digging into the conditions around this and while I think this will be good for a few big names, I'm pretty sure most modders will never see a dime from this, given that you need to earn at least $100 before Valve will make any kind of payment to you. With a 25% cut, a mod priced at $0.99 would need to sell 405 copies to get a payout. This is probably achievable for some well known authors, but as more and more content floods in, new people are just gonna get buried.

 

That said, this might create a nice model where modders are incentivized to create high quality free mods to show the community what they can do before trying to sell any mods, in which case I think we all win.

[Leonardo]

Well that was fast:  http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

I read it and I understand Fore's decision, but I also admire Chesko's decision to take down his Fishing mod.

 

Another note, someone has already released a themed "paid mods" mod.

[Majahalin]

The "support authors by paying" concept is good, but the way Valve using...... I think there are many potential problems need to be concerned,

and there would be a huge rift in gaming environment if not taken care of (or maybe that's the rift Valve want?)

 

There are two points in my concern about this event, the "Conflicts" and "Combine Using" of different mods.

 

Conflicts:

There are many mods which do arrangements at the same area of the game, with different outputs, and they won't work together.

Using combat as example, we have "Deadly Combat", "Ultimate Combat", "Duel - Combat Realism" and etc. in Skyrim mods.

Til now, conflicts between mods are not big problems, just choose the one suits you.

With money involved, conflicts will not stay on programming level only, but also rise to profits.

 

If the conflicts lead to "positive competition" (by polishing own features and fix own issues) then it should be fine.

But...... well, I think we can't avoid some "negative competition" such as scamming, crippling opponents' mods, hate speech, invoke racism...... etc.

 

And conflicts between similar mods with different prices are also something needed to concern, would Valve do something,

which may violate mod author, to ensure maximizing their profit? 

 

Combine using:

When we wanna have a immersive survival experience, a combination of "Frostfall", "Wet and Cold", "iNeed" (or "Realistic Need and Disease") , "Hunterborn" ...... etc. is usually what we have in mind.

A combination usage of different mods (by different authors usually) to create a whole different gaming experience is what we do all these days.

 

Though there won't be any serious problem if they all need money, as they are individual mods, just replace and remove some of them won't do any harm.

What I'm afraid of is, will money provide a catalyst that makes different mod authors "unite together" to create different mods, but all of them are needed to work?

Imagine: Author A's "mod 1" won't have some or much part of its features work if Author B's "mod 2" is absent,

but there isn't any actual parent/child relation between the mods, just some detecting scripts inside.

 

Issues combined:

The worst I can imagine: the whole modding community had been divided into different rival groups, creating mods only work within same group, competing the first one of some mod concepts and blame other authors' mod with similar function but just late to show out.....

 

I maybe too pessimistic about the Valve's movement (I need to repeat, I like the concept of "paying authors"), it's just like a atomic bomb gets denoted. The impact is too huge. As a Asian gamer, there have been already enough nasty things about game industry happened to make me think at the dark side.

 

Much apologize for poor English. 

[Deathbydestiny]

Well I actually was in the middle of reacquiring all the mods I had after I reinstalled the game. Now I feel like I should be stock piling them and keeping a backup of everything just in case.

 

Fun fact: The folder I put all the compressed files in is 4.48gb

[Jon]

Chesko:  "I am exiting the curated Workshop platform"
 

I am exiting the curated Workshop platform, and Arissa is no longer for sale.

I have petitioned Valve to issue an immediate refund to anyone who has purchased Arissa. This page should also be removed.

I will have a post available shortly.

 

Screencapped for posterity.

[Jon]

Chesko's full response.
 
I'm horrified by the bit at the end:
 

Real-time update - I was just contacted by Valve's lawyer. He stated that they will not remove the content unless "legally compelled to do so", and that they will make the file visible only to currently paid users. I am beside myself with anger right now as they try to tell me what I can do with my own content. The copyright situation with Art of the Catch is shades of grey, but in Arissa 2.0's case, it's black and white; that's 100% mine and Griefmyst's work, and I should be able to dictate its distribution if I so choose. Unbelievable.

 
So, Chesko decides he wants to leave the curated Workshop, Valve says "No".
 
Equally disturbing:

I am also considering removing my content from the Nexus. Why? The problem is that Robin et al, for perfectly good political reasons, have positioned themselves as essentially the champions of free mods and that they would never implement a for-pay system. However, The Nexus is a listed Service Provider on the curated Workshop, and they are profiting from Workshop sales. They are saying one thing, while simultaneously taking their cut. I'm not sure I'm comfortable supporting that any longer. I may just host my mods on my own site for anyone who is interested.

 

However I disagree with his Nexus as a Service Provider argument.  Nexus does not necessarily profit, as the mod creator decides what % goes to what Service Provider.  Nexus profits only if the mod creator wants them to.   Nexus is listed as "Community" under Service Providers, meaning that if the mod creator wants Nexus to profit it's because the Nexus community somehow aided in the creation of the mod via tutorials, support, etc.

[Deathbydestiny]

Well there you go, the truth from the horses mouth itself.

[Jon]

So, currently clicking on any of the paid mods leads to a page saying:

 

This item is no longer for sale, but if you have purchased it, you will still have access to it.

 

I am guessing this is just some kind of temporary thing, but it's still rather foreboding...

 

 

Edit:  Seems they are back now.  They were down for a good hour.

[Nico coiN]

Pathetic and just awfully terrifying.

 

I would also not be surprised if the 25% sales percentage will not be converted to 'real cash', but to some kind of 'credits' on the author's steam account.

[Elgar]

Like I said in my previous post I'm really, really sad to see Bethesda go this way and famous modders follow it.

 

BUT about that Chesko's drama I have to say that Valve's position is perfectly normal : even big companies like EA could remove their titles from Valve's store but these titles are still available for users who bought them before removal. For example Dragon Age 2 is not available anymore but I still have it in my Steam library and I can download it and install it as many times as I like. Totally fair.

 

 

I would also not be surprised if the 25% sales percentage will not be converted to 'real cash', but to some kind of 'credits' on the author's steam account.

 

Valve pay millions to TF2 hats creators so no, it's real cash.

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/30/steam-workshop-57-million-dollars/

http://store.steampowered.com/news/15614/

 

Fun fact, the Steam Workshop’s top TF2 seller has earned $500,000 in a single year and Paypal was worried about this !

http://www.pcgamesn.com/tf2/tf2-steam-workshop-sales-broke-paypal-gabe-newell-explains

[RabidGears]

Yeah if it has already been payed for they have to keep it available to the people who bought it. Isn't the refund only for people who change their minds in the first 24hrs (or w/e)? If they decide to keep the mod then Steam have to keep it available to them.

 

It's interesting that none of the mods are available for sale now. I wonder is it because the authors all decided to withdraw them?

 

Edit: Ok they're back, so...obviously not

 

And there are some new "Under Review" mods.

[Jon]

SkyUI is apparently going to be going on sale.   Honestly, it reads like a joke/sarcasm, but then Mardoxx said this.

 

Having already known paid mods were coming, I figured that is what reinvigorated SkyUI development when Mardoxx posted this WIP a month ago.  I'm pretty sure that they already said that the last version they released was final and it was no longer going to be developed.  (Here's at least one instance in which they said this.)

 

So, I'll spare judgment until I see prices and changelogs, but at least the one takeaway is that paid mods managed to jump start new development on Skyrim's most popular mod. 

[Arthmoor]

Couple of random things:

 

There was no NDA. We were all asked to keep it quiet, but as you might expect, without an enforceable agreement some people leaked details. I remain convinced someone leaked the whole thing to DarkOne 5 weeks ago. His long blog post about it hit too many details correctly for him not to have known. He'd have gotten his confirmation once the service provider thing happened.

 

Chesko, and everyone else in the initial group, was told flat out that anything offered up for sale that was later withdrawn would become unavailable for NEW PURCHASES but would remain in place for those people who had already paid for it. This should not have come as a surprise to him or Nikitta. It was discussed at some length and reiterated a number of times. I don't get why he's trying to act like it came out of nowhere. He can leave, Valve just won't issue the refunds to those who have the product already. I think that's entirely reasonable given the small amounts of money involved here.

 

If anyone is being hypocritical here and talking out of both sides of their mouth, it's not Valve, it's not Bethesda, it's not those of us in the paid content test group, it's DarkOne. Post after post about how he hates paid content and thinks it's a bad idea yet agrees to get listed as a service provider KNOWING that he'll get a cut of every sale that lists them seems less than honest. He's yet to disclose this fact in any of his posts despite it being public knowledge and I think that's just wrong.

 

As far as the grief I'm getting (mild compared to others) I'll say only this: It sucks to be broke all the time and this was something I looked at as a way to help solve that. So as far as I'm concerned the experiment has been wildly successful. People clamor on about "donate instead" but that's simply not happening in practice.