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Incorrect, inconsistent and illogical Hold assignments to locations and cells


taleden

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I recently had need to make a comprehensive map of the Tamriel/Skryim worldspace, specifically categorizing references and locations by the Hold they lie within. In the process I found a number of Locations (LCTN) with questionable Parent Locations (PNAM), and a number of wilderness cells (CELL) with questionable Locations (XLCN).

 

I've grouped all of these findings into three general categories for your consideration:

  1. Data that is clearly incorrect; it makes absolutely no sense that I can see, and it's very likely that whoever defined it as such didn't intend to and didn't notice what they'd done. These would clearly full under the purview of the USKP (and UDGP) to correct.
  2. Data that is inconsistent; whoever defined it probably did so intentionally, but must not have looked closely at the surrounding context, because it created a situation where (for example) a Hjaalmarch location is south of a Whiterun location; one or the other ought to be changed to make them consistent. These are fairly objectively in need of attention, but offer a subjective choice of which solution to choose.
  3. Data that is merely illogical; these definitions make a kind of sense, but only if you believe that Skyrim's political borders trace weird squiggly lines instead of simple straight ones, and only if you forget that the people of Skyrim don't have GPS, so their borders are very likely to follow obvious geographical features or else nobody in the game world would be able to describe or agree on where the border actually is. These are definitely subjective and may be beyond the scope of the unofficial patches, but I offer them anyway in case you folks agree with my reasoning and think it's worth making the game world a little less counter-intuitive in some places.

For reference, uesp.net has a great interactive map that makes it easy to scope out the geography and context of various locations, and there is also the in-game hold borders map which is (to my knowledge) the only official, Bethesda-sourced authority on where Skyrim's hold borders are as of the 4th era; I make several references to this "official border map" in my comments below.

 

Incorrect Locations

 
DLC1ArkngthamzLocation (DLC1ArkngthamzExterior01 @ -34,-8) is a FalkreathHoldLocation but should be a ReachHoldLocation
Arkngthamz is nowhere near the Falkreath border; it's clearly in the Reach along with these other nearby locations:
  • DushnikhYalLocation (DushnikhYalExterior01 @ -35,-6) is a ReachHoldLocation
  • ValthumeLocation (ValthumeExterior @ -29,-8) is a ReachHoldLocation
 
DustmansCairnLocation (DustmansCairnExterior01 @ -5,4) is a ReachHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
This bug probably arose because DustmansCairnLocation is also assigned erroneously to an unnamed wilderness cell (00009AA9 @ -32,-7) which actually IS in the Reach, between Dushnikh Yal and Valthume. So it needs to be unassigned from that wilderness cell and also re-parented to Whiterun, to match these other nearby locations:
  • HamvirsRestLocation (HamvirsRestExterior01 @ -5,5) is a WhiterunHoldLocation
  • RedoransRetreatLocation (RedoransRetreatExterior @ -4,1) is a WhiterunHoldLocation
  • GreenspringHollowLocation (GreenSpringHollowExterior01 @ -7,3) is a WhiterunHoldLocation
 
FrostmereCryptLocation (FrostmereCryptExterior01 @ 2,17) is correctly a PaleHoldLocation
However, the USKP has also erroneously assigned it to an unnamed wilderness cell (0000948A @ -16,9), near Orotheim in Hjaalmarch. It needs to be unassigned from that wilderness cell.
 
MilitaryCampReachSonsLocation (MilitaryCampReachSons01DUPLICATE000 @ -30,12) is correctly a ReachHoldLocation
However, it is also assigned erroneously to an unnamed wilderness cell (000094F6 @ -25,6) near Rebel's Cairn. It needs to be unassigned from that wilderness cell.
 
YorgrimOverlookLocation (YorgrimOverlookExterior01 .. 04 @ 22,12 .. 23,13) is correctly a PaleHoldLocation
However, the USKP has also erroneously assigned it to three unnamed wilderness cells off the north cost of Winterhold:
  • 00008E49 @ 22,28
  • 00008E2A @ 22,29
  • 00008E48 @ 23,28

These wilderness cells were probably intended to instead have YsgramorsTombLocation (YsgramorsTombExterior @ 23,29).

 
Inconsistent Locations
 
BlackreachTowerofMzarkExteriorLocation (TowerofMzarkSurfaceExterior @ 6,11) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a PaleHoldLocation
DoomstoneLordLocation (DoomstoneSnowy02 @ 1,13) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a PaleHoldLocation
StonehillBluffLocation (StonehillBluffExterior01..04 @ 4,9 .. 4,11) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a PaleHoldLocation
The Tower of Mzark and Stonehill Bluff seem quite firmly in Pale territory; the Lord Stone is closer to the border but still arguably east of the line, given the terrain and these other nearby locations:
  • ShrineofMehrunesDagonLocation (Mehrunes01 @ -1,12) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • DLC1DimhollowCryptLocation (DLC1DimhollowExterior01 @ 1,15) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • FortDunstadLocation (FortDunstadExterior01..04 @ 6,14 .. 7,15) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • BYOHHouse3Location (BYOHHouseExterior02 @ 7,9) "Heljarchen Hall" is a PaleHoldLocation
  • VolunruudLocation (VolunruudExterior @ 2,7) is a PaleHoldLocation
 
CrabbersShantyLocation (CrabbersShantyExterior @ -18,10) is a WhiterunHoldLocation but should be a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
Crabber's Shanty is just too far north to make sense as a Whiterun location, and is also literally surrounded on all sides by other Hjaalmarch locations:
  • RobbersGorgeLocation (RobbersGorgeExterior03 @ -20,11) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • DeadMensRespiteLocation (DeadMensRespiteExterior02 @ -17,12) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • BroodCavernLocation (BroodCavernExterior @ -14,10) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • OrotheimLocation (OrotheimExterior @ -17,8) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
 
DarkwaterCavernLocation (DarkwaterCavernExterior @ 26,-12) is a RiftHoldLocation but should be an EastmarchHoldLocation
The official border map is particularly unhelpful about the Rift/Eastmarch border, but it seems plausible to assume at the very least that everything at lower altitude (below the cliffs) belongs to Eastmarch, while everything above the cliffs (up on the plateau) belongs to the Rift. That puts Darkwater Pass firmly in Eastmarch territory, which is further reinforced by Snapleg Cave which is even further south:
  • SnaplegCaveLocation (SnaplegCaveExterior @ 28,-14) is an EastmarchHoldLocation
 

Illogical Locations

 

BlackreachQuickExitMzinchaleftLocation (BlackreachQuickExitMzinchaleft @ 1,19) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a PaleHoldLocation
MzinchaleftLocation (MzinchaleftExterior @ 1,20) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a PaleHoldLocation
Mzinchaleft is very near the Hjaalmarch/Pale border, but seems more likely to belong in the Pale given the terrain and other nearby locations:
  • HighGateRuinsLocation (HighGateRuinsExterior @ -5,25) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • MilitaryCampPaleImperialLocation (MilitaryCampPaleImperial..09 @ -2,23 .. 0,25) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • FrostmereCryptLocation (FrostmereCryptExterior01 @ 2,17) is a PaleHoldLocation
  • DLC1DimhollowCryptLocation (DLC1DimhollowExterior01 @ 1,15) is a PaleHoldLocation
 
BleakwindBluffLocation (BleakwindBluffExterior @ -26,3) is a ReachHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
RebelsCairnLocation (RebelsCairnExterior @ -27,5) is a ReachHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
The official border map does imply that the Reach/Whiterun border lies somewhere between the ridge line and the main road, but since medieval political boundaries almost always follow existing geographical features, the mountains would serve as a more natural place to draw the line. The landscape coloration and flora patterns also support the notion that Whiterun extends all the way to the mountain ridge (for example, Lavender and Tundra Cotton are both found almost exclusively in Whiterun, and they still grow in the areas around Bleakwind Bluff and Rebel's Cairn).
 
BloatedMansGrottoLocation (BloatedMansGrottoExterior01 @ -10,-9) is a FalkreathHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
The official border map does imply that the Falkreath/Whiterun border cuts at an angle through the western end of the mountain range, but since medieval political boundaries almost always follow existing geographical features instead of crossing them at arbitrary angles, it seems more plausible that the line would be drawn straight down the ridge line. In that case, Bloated Man's Grotto should belong in Whiterun, being on the north side of the mountains.
 
BrittleshinPassLocation (BrittleshinPassExterior01 and 02 @ -6,-9 and -5,-13) is a FalkreathHoldLocation but should be a TamrielLocation
North Brittleshin Pass is clearly in Whiterun, South Brittleshin Pass is clearly in Falkreath, and the interior cuts straight through the mountain range that serves as the Falkreath/Whiterun border. Since it belongs just as much in Whiterun as Falkreath, it should be assigned to Tamriel in general instead of Falkreath in particular.
 
ChillwindDepthsLocation (ChillwindDepthsExterior02 @ -25,14) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a ReachHoldLocation
The official border map does imply that the Reach/Hjaalmarch border lies somewhere between the mountains and the (unnamed?) river that eventually joins the Karth, but since medieval political boundaries almost always follow existing geographical features, that river would serve as a more natural place to draw the line. That would put Chillwind Depths in Reach territory, just like the closest other locations:
  • DragonBridgeOverlookLocation (DragonBridgeOverlookExterior01 @ -26,16) is a ReachHoldLocation
  • CliffsideRetreatLocation (CliffsideRetreat @ -27,13) is a ReachHoldLocation
 
ColdRockPassLocation (ColdRockPassExterior01 and 02 @ -12,7 and -12,9) is a WhiterunHoldLocation but should be a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
The official border map implies that the Whiterun/Hjaalmarch border runs due east-west along the south edge of the mountains; since both entrances to Cold Rock Pass are up in those mountains, it seems more likely to belong in Hjaalmarch, along with these other nearby locations:
  • BroodCavernLocation (BroodCavernExterior @ -14,10) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • DragonLair10Location (DragonLair10Exterior01..04 @ -11,8 .. -10,9) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
 
DeepwoodRedoubtLocation (DeepwoodRedoubtExterior01 @ -33,20) is a ReachHoldLocation but should be a HaafingarHoldLocation
The official border map does imply that the Reach/Haafingar border curves around in a way that might put Deepwood Redoubt in the Reach, but since medieval political boundaries almost always follow existing geographical features, the mountain ridge west of Dragon Bridge would serve as a more natural place to draw the line. Since Deepwood Redoubt is entered from the north side of that ridge, it seems more likely to belong in Haafingar.
 
DLC1ForebearsHoldhoutLocation (DLC1ForbearsHoldoutExterior01 @ -21,16) is a HaafingarHoldLocation but should be a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
The official border map shows that Hjaalmarch extends at least as far west as the (unnamed?) river that eventually joins the Karth. That puts Forebears' Holdout firmly in Hjaalmarch territory, along with these other nearby locations:
  • MeekosShackLocation (MeekosShackExterior01 @ -18,18) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • DeadMensRespiteLocation (DeadMensRespiteExterior02 @ -17,12) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
  • RobbersGorgeLocation (RobbersGorgeExterior03 @ -20,11) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation
 
GraniteHillLocation (wilderness cells @ -14,-9 .. -13,-8) is a FalkreathHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
The official border map does show that Falkreath controls the crossroads east of Fort Sungard, but that doesn't make a ton of sense. It seems more plausible that the Reach controls Fort Sungard and the road leading west, Falkreath controls Sunderstone Gorge and the road leading south, and Whiterun retains control of the open plains, including the crossroads itself since the north and east branches of that road remain firmly in Whiterun territory.
 
IronbindBarrowLocation (IronBindBarrowExterior01 @ 17,14) is a WinterholdHoldLocation but should be a TamrielLocation
Just like Brittleshin Pass, Ironbind Barrow spans a border (between the Pale and Winterhold) and has entrances on both sides. Since it belongs just as much in the Pale as Winterhold, it should be assigned to Tamriel in general instead of Winterhold in particular (which is actually a USKP modification; it was indeed a TamrielLocation in vanilla Skyrim).
 
NorthwindMineLocation (NorthwindMineExterior01 @ 36,-12) is a RiftHoldLocation but should be an EastmarchHoldLocation
TolvaldsCaveLocation (TolvaldsCaveExterior @ 43,-12) is a RiftHoldLocation but should be an EastmarchHoldLocation
The official border map does imply that the Rift/Eastmarch border curves far enough north to put Northwind Mine and Tolvald's Cave in the Rift, but the terrain around both of them matches the pine forests of Eastmarch much more than the birch forests of the Rift. It also seems more plausible that the border would cut due east-west along the cliff underneath Shor's Watchtower, which would put both of these locations north of the line.
 
TalkingStoneCampLocation (TalkingStoneCampExterior02 @ -18,5) is a HjaalmarchHoldLocation but should be a WhiterunHoldLocation
The official border map draws the Whiterun/Hjaalmarch border due east-west along the edge of the mountains, at a latitude just north of the crossroads north of Rorikstead. That puts Talking Stone Camp firmly in Whiterun territory.
 
WinterWarLocation (WinterWarExterior01..04 @ 41,15 .. 42,16) is a WinterholdHoldLocation but should be an EastmarchHoldLocation
The official border map shows all Hold territories stopping at the ocean shore, but since Winterhold has no harbor and Eastmarch has a harbor in nearby Windhelm, it seems plausible that Eastmarch would control the waters around this wreck, especially since it's directly in the shipping lane leading up the White River to Windhelm.
 
YngolBarrowLocation (YngolBarrowExterior @ 38,11) is a WinterholdHoldLocation but should be an EastmarchHoldLocation
The official border map shows that Eastmarch controls some territory north of the White River, and Winterhold does not control anything south of the river. That puts Yngol Barrow firmly in Eastmarch territory, along with these other nearby locations:
  • TraitorsPostLocation (TraitorsPostExterior02 @ 39,9) is an EastmarchHoldLocation
  • HollyfrostFarmLocation (HollyfrostFarmExterior @ 36,8) is an EastmarchHoldLocation
 
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I'll read over this list more closely later, but for now, if you're seeing some stuff the USKP assigned, it was for a purpose. Chesko found a bunch of those comment triggers that depend on location that were either not covered by one or covered by an incorrect one based on what they were targeting. So for those I'm not inclined to undo the edits. It may be slightly inconsistent in some spots but there's not much that can be done without losing the fixes for the comment triggers.

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I'll read over this list more closely later, but for now, if you're seeing some stuff the USKP assigned, it was for a purpose. Chesko found a bunch of those comment triggers that depend on location that were either not covered by one or covered by an incorrect one based on what they were targeting. So for those I'm not inclined to undo the edits. It may be slightly inconsistent in some spots but there's not much that can be done without losing the fixes for the comment triggers.

Interesting. Do you happen to have a link to any notes about which cell locations were changed for that reason?

 

Frostmere I could kind of sort of imagine being in that category, but the YorgrimOverlook edits really look very much like a simple mistake: someone wanted to assign YsgramorsTombLocation up there (which makes perfect sense), so they selected the field and pressed 'Y' and just forgot that there's another Y location that comes first alphabetically.

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I went through Chesko's list and none of them are related to what I've posted here, except for one: Chesko does indeed claim that

Wilderness (22, 28), Wilderness (23, 28), Wilderness (22, 29) needs YorgrimOverlookLocation

but that just doesn't make any sense if you look at the map; those cells are all immediate neighbors of YsgramorsTombLocation off the north coast of Winterhold (23,29), whereas the original YorgrimOverlookLocation is 16 cells due south, on the mainland, in the Pale (23,13). So unless there's some citation for exactly which trigger volumes way up by Ysgramor's Tomb actually need YorgrimOverlookLocation, I still think that must be a mistake.

 
The other USKP bug I've mentioned here (FrostmereCryptLocation @ -16,9) has no citation in Chesko's post so I think that's also a mistake. The USKP edit to IronbindBarrowLocation isn't necessarily a bug, I just mildly disagree with the apparent reasoning behind it. ;)
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Just noticed a few more that have no parent location but probably should:

 

 

DLC2POIFallForest28Location (POIFallForest28 @ 47,-19) "Ebony Warrior's Camp" has no parent location, but should be a RiftHoldLocation
NightingaleHallLocation (NightingaleHallExterior @ 47,-27) has no parent location, but should be a RiftHoldLocation
In addition, NightingaleHallLocation is also erroneously assigned to an unnamed wilderness cell (00009BE3 @ -16,-17), near Knifepoint Ridge in Falkreath (in vanilla Skyrim, not added by USKP). It needs to be unassigned from that wilderness cell.
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The map sounds promising.

I'm interested in generating a "map" that allocates hold names  to the 119 x 94 cells using a schema like:

H Haafingar
F Falkreath
Y Hjaalmarch
P The Pale
A The Reach
R The Rift 
W Whiterun Hold
I Winterhold

to get something in this format, (that prototype was based on this cell grouping).

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You forgot Eastmarch ;) But sure, that's easy -- if we can agree on where the borders should be drawn.

 

Generating such a map was actually how I came up with the original list of questionable cells and locations. I've been using a TES5Edit script to output CSV, and then pasting that into a spreadsheet which has a background image of Skyrim, with cell borders on the image aligned to the cells in the spreadsheet.

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I've been using a map graphic for some time that has the hold borders drawn on it. So far it seems to be pretty accurate whenever I refer to it for something.

 

SR Map Skyrim

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Yes, that's the "official border map" I reference in the original post. It's generally close, but doesn't have enough recognizable landmarks on it to resolve ambiguity in places like Hjaalmarch/Pale and Eastmarch/Rift, and it disagrees with the game data in some places too (such as Yngol Barrow: that map says Eastmarch owns both sides of the White River east of Anga's, but the game has YngolBarrowLocation parented to WinterholdHoldLocation).

 

Some of those borders are also just kind of illogical for a fantasy/medieval setting. For example, if the Jarls of the Reach and Whiterun had a dispute about their border, how would they describe the line that's drawn on that map? "Oh, just kind of somewhere between the road and the mountains, more or less" doesn't seem like it would cut it. Makes *much* more sense for that border to actually follow the mountain ridge line, which also happens to be where the terrain coloration changes and the tundra flora peters out.

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Wow is that script part of the Automation Tools

Looks like just the thing. Saves manual input of ~11,000 values. :P

 

The cell-wise borders should be no problem, if we are to assume all the borders are to be jaggy.

Else deal with a bunch of minor issues cropping up when it is requisite for a cell to share more than one hold. 

Could you post a preview of the map here please?

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That may be, but as far as I've been able to tell the map I linked is really close to accurate and I've never had any problems with resolving where something is.

 

Besides, have you ever SEEN a map from medieval times? Those things have some pretty crazy ass borders that we still follow in some places to this day.

 

Also most wilderness cells don't have location data assigned at all and most of these border areas will not have data for them anyway. It's just the actual dungeon sites and such that need to be looked at.

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Wow is that script part of the Automation Tools

Looks like just the thing. Saves manual input of ~11,000 values. :P

 

The cell-wise borders should be no problem, if we are to assume all the borders are to be jaggy.

Else deal with a bunch of minor issues cropping up when it is requisite for a cell to share more than one hold. 

Could you post a preview of the map here please?

It's a script I wrote myself in order to categorize how many of various items can be found in each hold. I've since switched to using custom defined border coordinates and point-in-polygon tests for that purpose, but I started out just exporting CSV of the hold assignment of all wilderness cells, which I put into a spreadsheet for inspection.

 

I've attached a copy of that spreadsheet to this post, but I had to strip out the background images with the terrain map because it was 13MB. The "Current" sheet shows cell hold assignments as currently defined, including all DLCs and unofficial patches; the "Proposed" sheet reflects the edits at the top of this thread. Both sheets have a frozen row/column with every 10th cell coordinate labeled, and the A1 cell controls conditional formatting: 0 to hide all numbers (only useful if you have a background image to look at underneath), 1 to show numbers only, 2 to show numbers with color coded cells.

 

If you'd like the version with the background images, I can email it to you; otherwise you could find your own game map with cell borders and configure its position and dimensions to line up with the spreadsheet cells.

 

That may be, but as far as I've been able to tell the map I linked is really close to accurate and I've never had any problems with resolving where something is.

 

Besides, have you ever SEEN a map from medieval times? Those things have some pretty crazy ass borders that we still follow in some places to this day.

 

Also most wilderness cells don't have location data assigned at all and most of these border areas will not have data for them anyway. It's just the actual dungeon sites and such that need to be looked at.

I've always had the impression that crazy borders on old maps were often due to tracing some geographic feature -- a river, a ridge, etc. And that's also my argument for a lot of the edits in the first post: there are several places where the terrain provides an obvious natural boundary between holds, but the game doesn't seem to treat it as such, and instead places the boundary somewhere less intuitive and more arbitrary, like "not along the mountain ridge, but instead somewhere east of it" in western Whiterun, or "not along the river, but instead somewhere west of it" in western Hjaalmarch.

 

And sure, most wilderness cells have no locations; I'm not worrying about those for the purpose of this post. But if you look at the spreadsheet I attached, especially with the color coding on, you'll see some spots that are just kind of a mess, where locations from both holds are mixed together randomly -- most notably in the Hjaalmarch/Pale and Eastmarch/Rift areas.

 

 

cellmap-noimage.zip

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Yes, I see what you mean and there are some very obvious mistakes you can see just in your color coding. Would you mind opening a tracker ticket for this and summarize your findings there? You can link back to this thread as well for the details, but as you know if it's just sitting in the forum it can get forgotten easily. We're kind of floating around with material for another update and this might as well get done sooner rather than later.

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It's a script I wrote myself in order to categorize how many of various items can be found in each hold. I've since switched to using custom defined border coordinates and point-in-polygon tests for that purpose, but I started out just exporting CSV of the hold assignment of all wilderness cells, which I put into a spreadsheet for inspection.

 

I've attached a copy of that spreadsheet to this post, but I had to strip out the background images with the terrain map because it was 13MB. The "Current" sheet shows cell hold assignments as currently defined, including all DLCs and unofficial patches; the "Proposed" sheet reflects the edits at the top of this thread. Both sheets have a frozen row/column with every 10th cell coordinate labeled, and the A1 cell controls conditional formatting: 0 to hide all numbers (only useful if you have a background image to look at underneath), 1 to show numbers only, 2 to show numbers with color coded cells.

 

If you'd like the version with the background images, I can email it to you; otherwise you could find your own game map with cell borders and configure its position and dimensions to line up with the spreadsheet cells.

 

I've always had the impression that crazy borders on old maps were often due to tracing some geographic feature -- a river, a ridge, etc. And that's also my argument for a lot of the edits in the first post: there are several places where the terrain provides an obvious natural boundary between holds, but the game doesn't seem to treat it as such, and instead places the boundary somewhere less intuitive and more arbitrary, like "not along the mountain ridge, but instead somewhere east of it" in western Whiterun, or "not along the river, but instead somewhere west of it" in western Hjaalmarch.

 

And sure, most wilderness cells have no locations; I'm not worrying about those for the purpose of this post. But if you look at the spreadsheet I attached, especially with the color coding on, you'll see some spots that are just kind of a mess, where locations from both holds are mixed together randomly -- most notably in the Hjaalmarch/Pale and Eastmarch/Rift areas.

 

 

attachicon.gifcellmap-noimage.zip

 

@Taleden

Thanks, shall do.

0 Wilderness
1 Eastmarch
2 Falkreath
3 Haafingar
4 Hjaalmarch
5 The Pale
6 The Reach
7 The Rift
8 Whiterun Hold
9 Winterhold

This is ideal. :) Will check back here & post for any refinements to the map.

As everything is LCRT driven, there is absolutely no way of filling in the blanks via script? Something like fixing a ref on a wilderness cell? Wishful thinking.  :rolleyes:

 

BTW tried the 2048 x 1536  official UESP map as overlay. It overlaps the LH green border by 4 cell widths on the right and falls short by 2 cell widths exposing rows 81 & 82 beneath. Did you have to resize yours?

Did you have any success adjusting the alpha on the bitmap so the numbers and cellgrids become visible again?

 

The bunch of 3's around 14:H on the proposed sheet don't seem to have a match on the map. Was that intentional?

Also gofig how they got to 13mbs when the raw bitmap comes in at 1.73 mb.

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Some of those borders are also just kind of illogical for a fantasy/medieval setting. For example, if the Jarls of the Reach and Whiterun had a dispute about their border, how would they describe the line that's drawn on that map? "Oh, just kind of somewhere between the road and the mountains, more or less" doesn't seem like it would cut it. Makes *much* more sense for that border to actually follow the mountain ridge line, which also happens to be where the terrain coloration changes and the tundra flora peters out.

 

I've always had the impression that crazy borders on old maps were often due to tracing some geographic feature -- a river, a ridge, etc. And that's also my argument for a lot of the edits in the first post: there are several places where the terrain provides an obvious natural boundary between holds, but the game doesn't seem to treat it as such, and instead places the boundary somewhere less intuitive and more arbitrary, like "not along the mountain ridge, but instead somewhere east of it" in western Whiterun, or "not along the river, but instead somewhere west of it" in western Hjaalmarch.

I disagree. In real life, both in medieval times and nowadays, a lot of borders don't follow geographical features (mountains, rivers, etc) at all.

 

EDIT : In fact the history of borders is very complex ! It seems that until modern times borders were not clearly defined lines. Interesting subject ! :)

 

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@Taleden

Thanks, shall do.

0 Wilderness
1 Eastmarch
2 Falkreath
3 Haafingar
4 Hjaalmarch
5 The Pale
6 The Reach
7 The Rift
8 Whiterun Hold
9 Winterhold

This is ideal. :) Will check back here & post for any refinements to the map.

As everything is LCRT driven, there is absolutely no way of filling in the blanks via script? Something like fixing a ref on a wilderness cell? Wishful thinking.  :rolleyes:

 

BTW tried the 2048 x 1536  official UESP map as overlay. It overlaps the LH green border by 4 cell widths on the right and falls short by 2 cell widths exposing rows 81 & 82 beneath. Did you have to resize yours?

Did you have any success adjusting the alpha on the bitmap so the numbers and cellgrids become visible again?

 

The bunch of 3's around 14:H on the proposed sheet don't seem to have a match on the map. Was that intentional?

Also gofig how they got to 13mbs when the raw bitmap comes in at 1.73 mb.

Well, sure, you could assign an XLCN to every single wilderness cell in the Tamriel worldspace if you wanted. I went a different route in my script and mod -- for anything in that exterior worldspace, I just get the exact coordinates and compare to border edge coordinates which I laid out by hand the way I think they make the most sense. I only check the XLCN for interior cells.

 

If you're referring to the 2048x1536 image that Arthmoor linked above and I linked in the first post, I didn't use that because I wanted one with the actual terrain texture and map marker labels on it. So I made one myself by using UESP's interactive map, turning on cell borders, zooming in just far enough to make all map markers appear, and then taking a bunch of screenshots and stitching them together in GIMP. Tedious, but effective. The result was a 2848x1952 PNG which I manually positioned and sized to make it line up with the spreadsheet grid, and then you can right click and send to background so that it's rendered behind the spreadsheet's own cells and numeric labels (rather than using alpha to see through it).

 

The "3"s you're seeing around 13H are Castle Volkihar -- I forgot that my "Proposed" sheet reflects some tweaking I did for my own purposes, in addition to the edits in this thread. So you can ignore those if you like. :)

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I'm pretty sure Castle Volkihar is intended to be treated as not part of Haafingar Hold for gameplay purposes.

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Aye, which is why it's not listed in my first post. :) It just snuck into the spreadsheet because it did make sense to treat it that way for my own purposes, and I'd forgotten that I had a few of those edits loaded alongside the other corrections when I generated the CSV export for the cell map.

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Well, sure, you could assign an XLCN to every single wilderness cell in the Tamriel worldspace if you wanted. I went a different route in my script and mod -- for anything in that exterior worldspace, I just get the exact coordinates and compare to border edge coordinates which I laid out by hand the way I think they make the most sense. I only check the XLCN for interior cells.

 

 

 

Aah, something like assigning an XLCN to each with a name Wilderness00001 ... Wildernessnnnnnn. Wouldn't that be rather long winded affair using conditions on the HoldAliases.  :cry: Edit: This would be handy. :P

Is it possible to compress the ods and email it please?

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I don't think I'd recommend actually assigning an XLCN to every single wilderness cell -- surely there must be a better way to accomplish what you want to do.

 

I'd be happy to email the spreadsheet with the background map image, but I don't see an address on that link -- is it something @ that domain? Or you could PM it to me I suppose.

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Since this is definitely the official map: http://images.uesp.net/e/ef/SR-map-Skyrim.jpg we're going to consider the border lines it has drawn on it as official. They're positioned well enough that we can see roughly how they should work out. With that in mind, a couple of notes:

DarkwaterCavernLocation: Given the precise positioning of the border cutting through the road in that area, this location (which covers Darkwater Pass) is actually correct to stay marked as being in The Rift. SnaplegCaveLocation is where the real error is, since according to the map this location is well south of the border and solidly within Rift territory. So that's the correction we're making there.

BleakwindBluffLocation and RebelsCairnLocation are both solidly within The Reach according to where the official border is drawn just west of Rorikstead. The positioning puts that right around where the foothills begin, not at the top of the ridge line. Plus, both of these are Forsworn related locations and the game is crystal clear that they only operate within The Reach. So these will not be altered.

BrittleshinPassLocation will need to be left alone since the location also covers the interior and changing it to an unexpected location like TamrielLocation could be disruptive to any radiant quests that may get assigned there.

ChillwindDepthsLocation in the CK is literally right on the river. Logical or not, the official map puts the border west of the river, in the hills above the location. So this is going to be left alone.

DeepwoodRedoubtLocation is occupied by Forsworn, the border very clearly puts it in the Reach, and the radiant quest system expects it to be assigned that way. Even if there were incontrovertible proof that it was within Haafingar, changing it will break things. So we're leaving this one alone.

GraniteHillLocation will be left alone as the official map is pretty explicit about where the border is at that location.

IronbindBarrowLocation will remain fixed as is per Bug #12423 since using TamrielLocation cuts it off from availability for radiant quests.

NorthwindMineLocation is within The Rift according to the official map. Same with TolvaldsCaveLocation. These will not be changed.

While you are correct about the positioning of TalkingStoneCampLocation from what I can see, we can't change this one because it would break the giant bounty quest that's available from the jarl in Morthal. Talking Stone Camp is the only giant camp in the hold.

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