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Investigations into GetIntimidateSuccess


MadCat221

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Intimidate speech options seem to fail more often than not when chosen.  When delving into dialog conditions, it's revealed that there is a condition function "GetIntimidateSuccess" is at work.

 

Consulting the Creation Kit Wiki reveals absolutely nothing but the glaringly obvious, so that's no help in figuring out how it works.

 

Is it even functioning properly?

 

I PM'd SmkViper, one of the BGS devs that is active in the forum, and he had the following reply:

 

 

 

I don't really do anything with condition functions, but a quick glance seems to take into account speechcraft, player's level, perks, and the actor's confidence.

 

So... four factors to play around with to see what's up.

 

Garthand said that Lynly Star-Sung seems to have a passable intimidate check.  Looking at the "Gut you like a fish" random encounter thieves, it seems that it has a level mult of 1.1x, min 6 max 45, and Foolhardy confidence, which would explain why passing theirs never seems to happen.  Why would a thief be Foolhardy anyway?  Oversight bug?  One would think that if a mark was too tough that they'd high-tail it outta there instead of fighting to the bitter end.  That's what Warriors with their "honor" do, not thieves looking out for themselves.

 

I've thought of a few testing methods. Altering the Intimidation perk's value from 2x to 50x is my first idea; basically changing values to absurdity.  If anyone else tries this, be advised: Some perks bake in their effects even after RemovePerk-ing them again, so don't save with that perk altered so, in case that its entry point effect has such a problem.

 

Another method that I thought up: See if "GetIntimidateChance" works in the console.  Choose a soft, perishable NPC (like the kind that Run For Your Lives or When Vampires Attack is meant to protect) even if they have no Intimidate dialog options and try it as a console command.  Check their level, confidence AV, and GetIntimidateChance success.  Record your current PlayerChar level, speech skill, and whether or not you have the Intimidation perk (and whether you set it to absurdity or not).  Then do it again on a hardier NPC (like a guard or a follower character).  If it returns 1, then I think it is indeed working and the problem is that most of the NPCs that have an intimidate check are just too high-level/confidence for it to succeed.

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Welp, two bits of good news: It responds in the console, and my first target got a success.

 

Target: Ghost of Katria (the Aetherium archaeologist lady).  Her level was 15, my level was 21, her confidence was 3 (the one right below Foolhardy which is 4), my speech skill was 36, and I did not have the Intimidation perk.

 

The console responded "player intimidate try: success"

 

I'm gonna check the Riften gate guard to see how he responds in the dialog itself, testing with the console beforehand, once I've cleared Arkingthand.  It'll be a test to see if it actually reflects what happens in-game.

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I think it would be a good thing if we can also noodle out what the formula is. Maybe the SKSE guys can find that for us? That information needs to be on the wiki.

 

I'd also be sure to run your test on the bandit at Valtheim Tower.

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More data for the pile:

 

Dwarven Centurion Master: Level 36, Confidence 4, Player Level 22, Player Speech 36, no Intimidation perk, FAIL.

 

Did it again with Intimidation perk added and set to 50x Absurdity, and again, FAIL.

 

Garthand had a hypothesis that Confidence of 4 (Foolhardy) may autofail intimidation checks.

 

A thought occurred to me... If you have any mods that fiddle with Speechcraft, check all their perks in the CK or TES5Edit to see if there are any Intimidate modifiers on perks other than Intimidation.  Check that perk to see what the perk entry is.  Just to account for any outside influences...

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And something that may indicate that Foolhardy != autofaill intimidation...

 

Target is a bandit that was part of the Companions quest to kill an escaped prisoner from a hold's dungeons.  Level is 19, Confidence is 4 (Foolhardy), player level is 22, player speech is 36, no Intimidation perk.  It failed.

 

But then I boost speech to 100 and add the 50x absurdity Intimidation perk.  It succeeded.

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Maybe the absurdity thing should be scaled back to the maximum possible values a legit game will provide? We don't really need to know that there's some crazy theoretical upper limit where even foolhardy will buckle.

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Tetsting to absurdity is to just see if things work at all.  Since it's done its purpose, I think it's not needed anymore (unless we're doing repeatability), since it's shown that Foolhardy targets can return a successful intimidate roll.

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Okay, the moment of truth: Riften Gate Guard.

 

Level 23, Confidence 4 Foolhardy (Crap...), my level 23, my speech 36, no perk: FAIL, both in dialog and in check,

 

Same as above, with 100 Speech and the regular perk, FAIL again.

 

With absurd-ized perk to 10x, still FAIL.  What the hell...?

 

With 50x, SUCCESS in both dialog and console checks.

 

The NPC_ base form for it is GuardRiftenGateNorthStartup, so if we disable inheriting AI data from template on it, we can then directly control the confidence to a level where one might actually pass it without being uber-leveled.  Dig deep enough into the template nest to the level where the Confidence setting is Foolhardy to refer to for the rest of the AI Data tab info (as the nested leveled list in between just reads default values since they become variable due to the leveled list).

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This amazes me that we didn't test this sooner....

 

The Riften North Gate guard, I've always persuaded as that's "Easy" -- level 25. But I can image a lot of players aren't level 25 yet, and your tests show have always failed Intimidate too.

 

According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Speech,

  • Persuade: get information using Speech skill alone. Chances of success depend solely upon your Speech skill.
  • Intimidate: get information forcefully. Chances of success depend upon your Speech skill and your overall level.

So I'd always assumed level was simply added to Speech. That NPC confidence really skews the result.

 

What about Caught Red Handed, getting the Mark of Dibella from Hofgrir Horse-Crusher. That's supposed to be Easy too, but I've never been able to persuade him (fixed by version 2.0.1 of the Unofficial Skyrim Patch). Instead, I've had to Intimidate (which works). His Confidence isn't listed.

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This amazes me that we didn't test this sooner....

 

The Riften North Gate guard, I've always persuaded as that's "Easy" -- level 25. But I can image a lot of players aren't level 25 yet, and your tests show have always failed Intimidate too.

 

According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Speech,

  • Persuade: get information using Speech skill alone. Chances of success depend solely upon your Speech skill.
  • Intimidate: get information forcefully. Chances of success depend upon your Speech skill and your overall level.

So I'd always assumed level was simply added to Speech. That NPC confidence really skews the result.

 

What about Caught Red Handed, getting the Mark of Dibella from Hofgrir Horse-Crusher. That's supposed to be Easy too, but I've never been able to persuade him (fixed by version 2.0.1 of the Unofficial Skyrim Patch). Instead, I've had to Intimidate (which works). His Confidence isn't listed.

Most of the Persuade checks work fine, I don't think they look at the target's confidence level, only intimidate checks do. The only Persuade check that is still unreliable, (that I'm aware of), is Lynly Star-Sung's.

 

More data on the GetIntimidateSuccess check:

 

I tested it on the Riften gate guard, always failed, even with an unreasonably overpowered intimidation perk. I also tested it on the bandit at Valtheim keep, and failed unless I was using the overpowered version of the perk.

 

The issue seems to be that while it is theoretically possible to intimidate a target with a confidence level of 4, it is functionally impossible without dramatically modifying the power of the intimidate perk, or wearing the amulet of articulation.

 

I think our best bet would be to compile a living list of NPCs that have a confidence level of 4 that are supposed to be able to be intimidated successfully.

 

So far:

 

-Riften gate guard

-Drahff (in Riften ratway)

-Random world thief encounter

-Valtheim keep bandit

 

Possible:

-Belligerent adventurer encounter (does this have dialogue for successful intimidate?)

-Skooma dealer encounter (again, not sure if this has successful intimidate dialogue set up)

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Level 62, Speech 99, all Speech Perks except Bribery, Persuasion, Intimidate, Master Trader. No "fortify" items.

Just did "Caught red handed" twice, all 3 "Persuades" worked, all 3 "Intimidates" worked.

Go figure... ;)

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Level 62, Speech 99, all Speech Perks except Bribery, Persuasion, Intimidate, Master Trader. No "fortify" items.

Just did "Caught red handed" twice, all 3 "Persuades" worked, all 3 "Intimidates" worked.

Go figure... ;)

Those persuades and intimidates work for me as well; do you have any luck persuading Lynly Star-Sung in Ivarstead during The Lover's Requital? I can easily intimidate her, but can only persuade her while wearing the amulet of articulation.

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Those persuades and intimidates work for me as well; do you have any luck persuading Lynly Star-Sung in Ivarstead during The Lover's Requital? I can easily intimidate her, but can only persuade her while wearing the amulet of articulation.

 

 Haven't done that quest yet. Now a couple of levels higher, 100 Speech + Master Trader, but none of the others I mentioned above. I'll have a play and report back ;)

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Persuade failed, Intimidate worked. I don't yet have the Amulet of Articulation to try it. Tried adding the Bribery and Persuasion Perks - made no difference.

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Persuade failed, Intimidate worked. I don't yet have the Amulet of Articulation to try it. Tried adding the Bribery and Persuasion Perks - made no difference.

Thank you, that confirms the issue then. I wonder why hers is acting strangely, it's only supposed to be a normal level persuade check.

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 Can't answer that, but I'd try comparing her to, say, Erdi or Una (Blue Palace, during The Mind of Madness). Pretty sure I didn't have to Intimidate (thus Persuade succeeded) - and not all that long ago.

There has to be a difference - it's just a matter of finding it ;)

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I think it would be a good thing if we can also noodle out what the formula is. Maybe the SKSE guys can find that for us? That information needs to be on the wiki.

 

I'd also be sure to run your test on the bandit at Valtheim Tower.

Good idea.

 

I think the thief that's always there when you follow Delphine during the A Blade in the Dark quest should be tested too since it's almost impossible to have a successful Intimidation based on how many NPC allies the player has regardless what Speech skill you have.  That seems to me to be missed by Bethesda in vanilla and I think that's a bug.

 

Also you can forget Maul in Riften since that's more likely based on what dialogue options you choose.

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