[Skyrim] Information Baked Into Saves

[ThreeTen]

• Positions of moveable static objects become permanent after your first encounter with them. Prior to this they will update

I am assuming these are movable statics that you have added via CK?  Only because I add movable statics via scripts and I can move/rotate them all over the place even after I encounter them.

[Arthmoor]

Specifically the ones listed under the "Movable Statics" category in the CK. References to those will bake into their current positions once you've found them in game.

[ThreeTen]

Specifically the ones listed under the "Movable Statics" category in the CK. References to those will bake into their current positions once you've found them in game.

I guess I wasn't clear.

 

I was trying to say that this might only apply to Movable Static objectreferences that were added via CK/Tes5edit and not scripts.

 

Essentially I have a script that adds a bunch of Movable Static objects to one area, all initially disabled.  I then move them in a circle around a center position, give them a rotation, and enable them.

I also can rotate these movable statics again when necessary,  so long as they are disabled when I do so.  

 

This couldn't happen according to your statement as the object references would be stuck in the area that I first created them at via PlaceAtMe(),

 

Now, this might be because I am adding these references via scripts that it is possible or because I never actually enabled them yet.  I also do not know if the same can occur with references that were placed via CK/tes5edit.

 

Edit: Spelling

[Arthmoor]

Everything in the OP refers to stuff placed by hand via the CK. Using scripts and PlaceAtMe() is not treated the same by the game so it's not going to be clear whether or not the same rules apply.

[Kesta]

Hello ! Some necro, because there is still a lot to do learn all of this imo.

 

I'm tring to understand a bit more about all of this using Savetool.

 

Am I right to assume that the two categories "UpdateOffsets1" and "UpdateOffsets2" in Savetool are related to scripts registered for update ? respectively : UpdateOffsets1 is registered for update while UpdateOffsets2 is registered for update game time ?

Edit : That's not a question anymore, just a fact ^_^

 

Also, maybe not exactly related to the savegame, but since it seems to be saved in there as well : How many instances of the same script can be safely attached to objects before breaking things ? (even if 95% of them are idle while the few others are running). Or is it completely dynamic ?

Edit: Nervermind, mineorefurniturescript = 1752 instances with all DLCs >_<

 

And last : Are GlobalVariables properties flagged as constant saved as well ? Despite being "constant" and thus impossibles to change ? What about AutoReadOnly properties ? I'm not sure I completely understand the 1st item on the OP list :/
Finally understood, there was still a pane in savetool I didn't know what it was about... so yeah, it's actually storing the formID it's supposed to look for as an 8 hex number... not the formID though, I guess it have to do with the save not being f*cked up by changes in the load order ?

Thanks for whatever answer you might came up with

[Leonardo]

Load order doesn't bake in (thank God) so you should be fine with updating that on the fly.

I need to ask this;  Are the levelled lists baked-in into a save(s)?

[zilav]

I need to ask this;  Are the levelled lists baked-in into a save(s)?

No.

[Leonardo]

The reason I asked that is, becasue I open the Save Script Cleaner and loaded a save then I clicked on the Mod Editor button and there you'll see all active mods listed as it is in a sorted loadorder, but you will NOT see any mods that's merged into the bashed patch.  Only the bashed patch wil be listed last as it should be.

[Arthmoor]

They do not bake in to the save. The save will reference things it thinks it needs to but leveled lists are considered transient data and any changes to them will be lost when the mods are removed.

[GrimBroom]

Maybe this isn't the best place to ask this, but I don't want to start a new topic.

 

I have a hypothetical. The platform I'm on is the Xbox. Let's say I have two characters, an Argonian and an Orc. In the Argonian game I want Storefront enabled, and in the Orc game I want Storefront disabled. As long as I make sure Storefront is enabled before I load up the Argonian save, and as long as I make sure Storefront is disabled before I load up the Orc save, can I switch between the two saves without causing an issue?

[Arthmoor]

As long as the XB1 mods UI doesn't do something dumb, yes, that's possible.

[ejnomad07]

Maybe this isn't the best place to ask this, but I don't want to start a new topic.

 

I have a hypothetical. The platform I'm on is the Xbox. Let's say I have two characters, an Argonian and an Orc. In the Argonian game I want Storefront enabled, and in the Orc game I want Storefront disabled. As long as I make sure Storefront is enabled before I load up the Argonian save, and as long as I make sure Storefront is disabled before I load up the Orc save, can I switch between the two saves without causing an issue?

 

Will totally be safe so long as you remember to keep doing that, and at least you will get a warning if it's disabled and you try to play your Argonian.

[GrimBroom]

All right, thank you. I don't even know if I'll ever run across this type of situation when I get into running characters, but it's something I might need to keep in mind.

[Leonardo]

Has anyone tried the Skyrim Tools -  Script Cleaner tool yet?

[Arthmoor]

I would suggest avoiding that thing since it's still built assuming 32 bit rules are in place.

[Leonardo]

So we need to wait for a 64-bit Script Cleaner and I doubt that Hadoram's Script Cleaner works for SSE-saves.

[alt3rn1ty]

On 9/15/2014 at 5:05 AM, Arthmoor said:

Bumping to mention that NPC facegen has been added to the list in the OP.

Forgive me if I am just being blind but I dont see this added to the OP

----------------

Also could you add any knowledge reference Game Settings Records ( GMSTs ) being baked in to saves ( do they all get permanently baked in ? ), I found a post reference Timescale on Reddit here ..

 

I was looking for this information due to a Wrye Bash Skyrim SE user wondering why the rebuild patch tweak settings options did not seem to work, eventually it was the user who dug up that reddit post ..

.. And now Utumno needs the Wrye Bash documentation updated

[Arthmoor]

Huh, I swore I stuck the facegen information into the OP. That's been added now.

[Turija]

Does ENBoost bake any memory formatting or anything like that into your save files?  Or is it safe to uninstall ENBoost mid game? 

[Arthmoor]

ENBoost doesn't leave any data in your save at all so it's perfectly safe to drop, just like an SKSE dll would be.

[XJDHDR]

On 7/17/2013 at 11:33 AM, Arthmoor said:

There is one method for mitigating this - to a point. Blank a script you want the system to clear. As long as it isn't carrying out OnUpdate() events, the game will strip all the properties, variables, and other things from it. That will leave behind just an empty stub on your save. That will still never go away, but it DOES clean up most of the problem in the process. It's as close to a "save cleaner" as one can safely get.

Sorry for the necro but I am wondering what would happen if someone uninstalls a mod without providing blank copies of the scripts used by the mod? Would the save game keep all the functions and events (that are not OnUpdate events) from the scripts that were removed? And if so, will the game try to send events to and run functions in those scripts? This is all assuming the scripts do NOT contain OnUpdate events.

 

Edit: Also

• Papyrus script properties. These become permanently baked in from the moment the game starts and/or when a new mod with scripts is added. Script properties can only be updated by forcing them to change via an update script, like what the USKP uses for retroactive fixes.
• Objects pointed to by Papyrus properties. These can never be moved, even with scripted commands. This data is baked in from the moment the game starts and/or a new mod is added. Most attempts will simply fail silently, while others will log an error saying the objects can't be moved.

Does anyone know if these two problems apply to ALL script properties or can AutoReadOnly properties mitigate them.

Edited January 4, 2018 by XJDHDR
Added question about Propertires

[EiffelGTower]

 

I'm nowhere near as experienced as any of you guys, so this is a most enlighting read for me, thanks!

I have a question about scripts if any of you is reading this.

Started working on a scripted mod recently using custom keywords as properties - then experimented removing one keyword from a script property to point directly at the same linkedRef instead (skipping the keyword).

Of course, log shows "Warning: Property _MarkerToCheckKW cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property" if I reload a save made when my test plugin was running.

For the sake of experimenting, I disabled the plugin, loaded a complete Vanilla save from 6 months ago, made a new save, quit, enabled my plugin and reloaded that save.

The crazy thing (for me) is that my log still shows exactly the same warning as if that old save had seen that plugin before.

So my question is where and how is that information stored if not in the save?

[Arthmoor]

It's stored in the save. What you just experienced is the whole point of this thread, that the information has been baked in there and cannot be removed safely. It's the reason there's no such thing as a clean save for Skyrim.

Saves don't just store plugin names and lists of forms anymore like they did prior to Skyrim. They now also contain a table of script files and other information. It's all of this other information that's the problem.

[EiffelGTower]

Hey, thanks a lot for your answer, Arthmoor!

These warnings occured before the game loaded, loading an ancient save which had never seen any version of this script (either with the original Property or with the modified one) and loading a script where that "missing" Property never appeared - so I was wondering if somehow that property change had not been stored in the plugin itself since it couldn't have been stored in that 6 month old save... Just couldn't figure out where that missing property's name and ID was coming from.

But if I'm understanding you and what I read here correctly, these warnings should not "contaminate" the loading save? They can only be baked inside new saves (auto or manual), is that correct?

[alt3rn1ty]

I may be wrong here, but with these games they all also have a problem still if you dont quit to desktop and clear all game related memory. So just quit and reload another save, can carry over some game states

CDCooley once described a scenario in Fallout 4. You know you can sometimes come across a mine that is buried so you cant see it (whether intentional or mistaken placing is not relevant here), do a save just before the area a few steps away. Walk into the mine and blow up so the game immediately loads up the same area, and the mine is now gone as if it was never there. The game state of the mine having blown up has been carried over in memory after reloading the same area, where you would expect the mine still to be active after a reload.

To be sure this does not happen, exit to desktop always. Then reload a save. Its the only way to be sure. Apparently there are a lot of such game states which carry over in memory when reloading from within the game, thats probably how your old save is behaving as if it has had your change when it was saved, when it never has.

I dont know all of the things which can be affected by this, but I am pretty sure this is a problem for at least Skyrim, Fallout 4, and Skyrim SE