Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Breaking off of the discussion in the random thread, I'm extremely curious of someone's claim that they can and are working miracles and cleaning up _far nif garbage. I need to prove this to myself, so I'll be thinking out loud here, don't mind if it's somewhat random in itself. Feel free to jump in any time.Disclaimer: I am not trying to maliciously discredit anyone. I just find it hard to believe and need to see it for myself.The claim is in regards to RAEVWD, and I'll get there eventually. Like I said, bear with me. Hopefully, data captured here can help the RAEVWD team (i.e. Arthmoor) improve on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 First, we need a baseline and I'll start with the Imperial City, the worst FPS drain on distant views ever.Couple of notes;- These are straight vanilla meshes, non-pyffi'd or optimized in any way.- Does it surprise anyone that there is only a total of 25 _far nifs for the IC?- There's apparently an extra _far nif that doesn't even have a base nif, it's not included here. File Orig File Size Far File Size Orig vert/face Count Far vert/face Count-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------icauouterwall01 768kb 89kb 7589/11866 899/756icauouterwall02 750kb 89kb 7418/11580 899/756icautower01 ** 1727kb 36kb 20888/22460 207/300icbridge01 163kb 16kb 1423/2094 111/141icbridge02 98kb 15kb 821/947 158/134icbridgecap01 38kb 5kb 326/288 35/23icbridgecap02 37kb 5kb 323/283 35/23icbridgeramp01 61kb 6kb 573/686 46/33icbridgetower01 1043kb 148kb 12067/13197 1387/1230icentrance01 1085kb 152kb 12388/13544 1387/1252icexteriorwall01 * 1275kb 470kb 13267/15317 5391/4392icexteriorwall02 * 1224kb 470kb 12716/14748 5391/4392icinnerwall01 1356kb 148kb 12348/17114 1510/1260icpalacetower01 ** 2506kb 98kb 24818/29520 972/930icpalacetowerbase01 * 2403kb 230kb 26089/31425 2267/1920icprisonouterwall01 762kb 89kb 7494/11882 899/756icprisonouterwall02 749kb 89kb 7418/11580 899/756icprisontower01 828kb 52kb 8690/12604 458/420icwall01 ** 943kb 20kb 11639/12489 130/156icwall02 ** 944kb 20kb 11649/12497 130/156icwalltower01 342kb 52kb 4071/4512 458/420icwaterfrontbridge01 509kb 52kb 5632/6937 458/420icwaterfrontwall01 * 1742kb 392kb 15194/20345 4710/3660icwaterfrontwall02 * 1689kb 401kb 14560/19713 4730/3696icwaterfrontwall03 * 1519kb 363kb 13066/17682 4239/3330* = bad, bad, bad** = seriously, can't get any better than this and notice a difference Let's do the math;Total of Original file sizes = 24,561kb or 25mbTotal of Far nif file sizes = 3,507kb or 3.5mbTotal Original vert count = 252,467Total Far nif vert count = 37,806Total Original face count = 315,310Total Far nif face count = 31,312As far as vanilla Oblivion goes, those numbers are pretty damn good.I'll be making a vanilla install setup to get some FPS baselines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Next up, PYFFI'd vanilla meshes, when I get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'll be looking forward to what you find out. Do keep in mind that she's processing a bunch of stuff in Blender as well, apparently by hand even. Not some magic miracle process I could duplicate unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Oh I know exactly what she's doing. Simply running a poly reducer script in Blender. Even you could do that.What I'm really researching is how much is being saved in the end and the differences between vanilla and your far nifs.My guess though, the real problem with RAEVWD is textures and not meshes.Edit: So, did you create far nifs that weren't there before? You have 33 meshes in your IC folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes, there are numerous _far.nif files that did not exist. None of the IC housing came with them. Not even the one complete building they provided.Textures are not the issue. They consume a paltry 50MB of extra VRAM and that's it, and that's with the QTP3 pack. The standard core pack is less than that. It's definitely a poly count issue, because it only ever lags when the on-screen poly count passes 2 million triangles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwip Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm only sort of following this conversation, but I would be curious to know what the difference between Blender poly reduction and RAEVWD's Milkshape poly reduction works out to be. I was not heavily enamored of the Blender process when I did it for Kerrach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I don't think she's actually doing poly reduction. Her entire thing with the files was duplicate verts or something. Supposedly millions of them. It involves Blender, so my eyes glazed over the moment that all got started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 I don't think she's actually doing poly reduction. Her entire thing with the files was duplicate verts or something. Supposedly millions of them. It involves Blender' date=' so my eyes glazed over the moment that all got started [/quote']Poly reduction script = the removal of unnecessary verts and faces (that would include dup verts). Hopefully your eyes didn't glaze over when you read that sentence. I can guarantee she's not removed millions of them. Look above. There's only 68-70,000 of them in the IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Jumping ahead, I've not done PYFFI'd meshes yet, I've gone and looked at the RAEVWD IC meshes to satisfy my curiosity. Interesting results. Again, this is baseline data. File Far File Size Far vert/face Count-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------icauouterwall01 53kb 898/756icauouterwall02 53kb 898/756icautower01 24kb 207/300icbridge01 10kb 110/141icbridge02 9kb 158/134icbridgecap01 3kb 34/23icbridgecap02 3kb 34/23icbridgeramp01 4kb 46/33icbridgetower01 97kb 1396/1230icentrance01 98kb 1386/1252icexteriorwall01 299kb 5390/4392icexteriorwall02 299kb 5390/4392icinnerwall01 87kb 1509/1260icpalacetower01 52kb 971/930icpalacetowerbase01 136kb 2267/1920icprisonouterwall01 53kb 898/756icprisonouterwall02 53kb 898/756icprisontower01 34kb 458/420icwall01 14kb 130/156icwall02 14kb 130/156icwalltower01 34kb 458/420icwaterfrontbridge01 34kb 458/420icwaterfrontwall01 249kb 4709/3660icwaterfrontwall02 253kb 4730/3697icwaterfrontwall03 226kb 4239/3331 Additional meshes; Orig file size Orig vert/face Count Far file size Far vert/face Countictalosblock01house01 1395kb 15901/15887 336kb 9264/6030icwaterfrontcauseway01 83kb 647/742 26kb 543/454icwaterfrontplaza01 773kb 7370/9330 134kb 3579/2173icwaterfrontstreet01 264kb 2350/2853 70kb 1798/1300icwaterfrontstreet02 255kb 2244/2792 63kb 1621/1200icwaterfrontstreet03 236kb 2088/2580 59kb 1525/1110icwaterfrontwallhouse01 232kb 2507/2643 60kb 1561/1013icwaterfrontwallhouse02 371kb 3995/4251 68kb 1770/1231 Let's do the math; (top group of files, same as vanilla)Total of Far nif file sizes = 2,191kb or 2.1mbTotal Far nif vert count = 37,802Total Far nif face count = 31,314What have we learned, kids? There is virtually no difference between vanilla _far meshes and RAEVWD meshes. The only savings come in disc space.Let's do the math again; (bottom group of files, new additional _far meshes)Total of Original file sizes = 3,609kb or 3.6mbTotal of Far nif file sizes = 816kb or 1.0mbTotal Original vert count = 37,102 Total Far nif vert count = 21,661Total Original face count = 41,078Total Far nif face count = 14,511I think we can all agree these are not the best optimized meshes. I already know what's wrong with them. Later I'll run them through the Blender process to squeeze a few more savings out of them and compare, but it is not going to be extreme savings. These leads to some curious questions though.- Why only 1 of the 6 talosblockhouse done?- Why not other houses like taloswallhouse, templeblockhouse, marketblockhouse?- Why not arboretumplaza, arenaplaza and palacewall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndalayBay Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Might want to have a look at the ships at the Waterfront. I took the individual ship meshes and combined them into one NIF, which I shrunk down to make a miniature ship for IFR. The thing had a ridiculous number of vertices. I fixed it to some extent by redoing the collision, but I'm not a modeller so I couldn't do much more than that. Syscrusher helped a bit by optimizing the mesh a bit more...Anyway the ships might be a source of a large number of verts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 You need to install the additional IC Architecture pack to get the rest. What you're listing off is only from the core package, which only deals with what comes with the game and a couple of useful extras, like that one Talos blockhouse.The IC Architecture package has 99 more meshes for your viewing pleasure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 wtf, how did I not see that? Judging by their file sizes, they seem pretty negligible to me but I'll look deeper.So, basically, RAEVWD is rendering new objects for me to see, thus adding to degraded performance issues for some. Alright.Andalay may have a point about the ships. I'll have to compare separate and unified models to see if there is any savings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Also, yes, ships are another source of raging poly counts. That's why those are in a separate folder as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Wonderful..... Sexy RAEVWD. Just what you need associated with RAEVWD. Saw that coming.With her completely untrue and misleading statement of hundreds of millions of vertices. Did you not say you wanted to look at these first? Did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwip Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 All else aside, you know, when I think "sexy", definitely the first thing that pops to mind is RAEVWD....no, wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Gah. You know, it's clearly stated in the readme that permission is required before pulling something like that. I had my suspicions but this just galls me. Yes, I'm sure it helps, but goddamn, just because I was interested in the results does NOT mean I gave permission for this.That said, now that she's done this, is there any way to verify the claims being made based on what's there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Already on it. Go give her hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Further analysis has gone private for now, sorry folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurð Stormhand Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Gah. You know' date=' it's clearly stated in the readme that permission is required before pulling something like that. I had my suspicions but this just galls me. Yes, I'm sure it helps, but goddamn, just because I was interested in the results does NOT mean I gave permission for this.That said, now that she's done this, is there any way to verify the claims being made based on what's there?[/quote']With the greatest respect to your Imperial-mod-awsomeness-of-superior-quality-taste-and-imagination, and I really mean all that, the most likely upshot of "Sexy RAEVWD" will probably be massively improved publicity for RAEWVD. Actually, I suggest you rename all your uploaded mods to "Sexy" until the end of this debacle, really.In view of this, you might also want to restrain your full, and justified, mod-fury in view of the above.Just sayin' chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I was more than happy to allow her to continue on that with the full understanding that it was being done as an update for the main project. Branching it off on her own to exploit the name reputation RAEVWD already has was not what I had in mind, and I think everyone knew that. I've already asked her to take it down and told her the plan is to incorporate the updates into the main package and update THAT instead. She'd get full credit for the added optimization work obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndalayBay Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And having another RAEVWD download only confuses things. There have been Nexus users already asking if they install the original and then download her version or what.Arthmoor was clear: he said he would incorporate her changes into the main download. She's jumping the gun to get some glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And she has now taken it down, so issue resolved. Time permitting I can get an update in place for it that includes her work. Any gain in FPS is a good thing IMO so long as the visual quality is not lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Glad to see she was co-operative. I'm still rolling my eyes at the outrageous claim though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmoor Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well she seems intent on going to war over this when I never granted her permission to release modified versions of my work. Looks like I'll need to keep an eye on the situation now to make sure she's not trying to pull a fast one later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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