Jump to content
Our Domain Name Has Changed! Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Arthmoor

Random Stuff

Recommended Posts

Oh' date=' it'll run well enough, sure. But without the phone home part, no DLC for you. Which, as you say, I've seen happen with my own eyes on my own install. Which if that's not what you want, fine, but let's not pretend it's much if anything different than what Steam does.[/quote']I can confirm this, Dragon Age on the Xbox does the same thing. When you start it up before it even displays the menu, you get the little pop-up thing at the bottom of the screen that reads:"Connecting to Dragon Age Servers....""Sending account information...."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I should probably throw in MotB next time I install it then. Though, I dunno. I was impressed most of my first time through, but then I kind of...stopped. I dealt with the rails ok, I guess, but the tunnel on top of them was a bit overkill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So speaking obliquely of FO3' date=' when did your blog get paginated comments, anyway?[/quote']Sometime in the last few days. Long overdue, I know.
Actually I thought you got Anchorage off GFWL, but I'm apparently confusing you with Shamus Young, who had a less than optimal experience with the thing. More than once.
Yes, I'm given to understand some of the poor saps who "beta tested" it in the early days ran into stuff like that but shockingly enough, Bethesda or Microsoft, or both, actually fixed it so that experience doesn't get repeated again. Since nobody I know has another GFWL game other than Fallout 3, I guess the mystery of whether it actually works right will have to be taken up some other time.
If GFWL was the DRM system for some game you bought, guess what, you'd need to be running GFWL and, you know, logging in.
Except for how there's enough evidence out there to call bullshit on this. Since GFWL apparently can be the DRM scheme, and people claim you don't interact with it when it is, beyond the initial authentication exchange, it is very much comparable to Steam. Steam, which you well know, insists on making you register and deal with their client each and every time you want to play. Whether that's "offline" mode or not.BTW, even the folks on the Shamus blog seem to bear out exactly what I'm saying. That Steam's offline mode is a lie. So take that for what it's worth to you.
And as far as Securom goes, I'm still waiting for Steam to do something as egregious to me as the time it took me 3 hours and 5 installs to figure out that Medieval 2 Total War's Securom didn't want to play with Vista and that I needed to some bronze knife waving and goat slaughtering bullshit. Not to belabor the point, but I have 19 games installed via Steam, 10 of which came off retail discs, and I had zero problems with those installs.
The odds are more in favor of your account being randomly blacklisted due to bank errors. That said, the choice of how far to go with SecuROM is entirely up to the developer. Apparently M2TW decided to go balls out with the entire package. That's well known to be nasty for Vista users, and probably Win7 users too. Bethesda didn't do this with FO3 and used the far less intrusive disc-check-only version. Which as you also know can be bypassed entirely - and legally - with a direct shortcut to the game EXE itself. Try that with your Steam games and get back to me when Steam allows this to happen.
And yeah, I've heard several stories of Civ 5 people who bought retail and had to download the game for some reason.
Not surprised. It's a ridiculously common complaint for F:NV, Civ 5, and numerous other supposedly "install from disc" retail copies. Steam simply isn't reliable in this sense, and I don't need to have used it to reach that conclusion. From the number of complaints, you're one of the lucky ones where it just works.
I assume you're pretty much approaching this from the F:NV/Skyrim debates, which no, I'm not really following because I followed the Civ 5 debates, which were about as I described. Having read through that particular set of vitriol previously, I'm not really invested in doing it again, since yeah, I've pretty much reached the conclusions I need to reach.
There's been some bleedover from the Civ 5 people there too, and they all report it being much the same. Huge flamy debates about it, with a really large number of people openly opposed to the whole thing. All ignored by the developer in the end, just like with F:NV. People apparently also got banned on their forums for it just like Bethesda is threatening to do now.Here's a suggestion to both developers - drop the damn thing and you won't have to openly threaten your customers to stop voicing their consumer opinion to you about it.
So, I said to myself just now "Well, I guess he might be right. I've never actually tried that option, so maybe it doesn't work for some reason."The option, for those of you playing along at home, is Settings/Interface/Notify me (with Steam instant messages) about additions, etc.So I turn it off, quit Steam, log back in, and I'm staring at my games library. No advertising has in fact been presented to me whatsoever.So I turn it back on, quit Steam, log back in, and lo and behold, I get an advertising popup.Kind of what I expected, to be honest.
Also what my buddies expected but in reality not what actually happened.
Oh, it'll run well enough, sure. But without the phone home part, no DLC for you.
Wrong again. DLC worked fine. I bought Warden's Keep through their system and it was installed and still fully functional while I was experimenting with the block via the firewall. No notices about being unable to authenticate it.
Well, ok, you talked about it just now in terms that sounded like RAM/CPU footprint, of which there's essentially none. And yeah, it will send a certain amount of info back home. A bit of info on system specs (Windows does this too, of course, and for that matter your god damned blog does this to me every single day), gameplay hours logged, and achievements. Dragon Age and consoles both phone home for achievements. I'm not sure about the hours logged.
I'm well aware Dragon Age will phone in for achievements and plenty of other things. You read my review, you know I poked at it to see the extent of what got sent, and you are also entirely and fully aware of the real truth - it does NONE of that if you do not log in to the social networking portion of the system. Steam does not allow you to play unless the client is running, period.Windows sends hardware profiling info when you activate. I have not caught it attempting to phone home for anything other than regular update checks since it's been installed. And I opted in to the update checks, so I'm fully aware of what it's looking for when it does those.What is the blog doing that would qualify for this other than what every last web application on Earth does with the login cookie? Being the principal author of the software, and it being entirely open source, you can look at it yourself and see what it does with that login cookie. What else is it supposedly doing?
So again, use Steam or don't. Totally up to you. But if you're going to talk shit about it, you can expect some pushback.
Not entirely up to me if the game I want forces that decision on me and won't act like its GFWL counterpart and allow me to play without the client involved. If you're going to defend it based on provably false assertions, expect people to get angry and voice their discontent over it. It's not talking shit to point out factually correct information about it as a basis for why you don't like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Injecting some randomness again here - I just saw the download progress bar in Firefox actually go backwards for about 5 seconds. I've never seen it do that before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sometime in the last few days. Long overdue' date=' I know.[/quote']It's pretty handy, yeah.
Yes' date=' I'm given to understand some of the poor saps who "beta tested" it in the early days ran into stuff like that but shockingly enough, Bethesda or Microsoft, or both, actually fixed it so that experience doesn't get repeated again. Since nobody I know has another GFWL game other than Fallout 3, I guess the mystery of whether it actually works right will have to be taken up some other time.[/quote']May of 2010 was the early days? For that matter, the thing with AoE III I also linked was in November. Did something happen in the last month I'm completely unaware of?As far as Bethesda and GFWL goes, I find it somewhat telling that the stuff they've put out since FO3 stayed very, very far away from it.
Except for how there's enough evidence out there to call bullshit on this. Since GFWL apparently can be the DRM scheme' date=' and people claim you don't interact with it when it is, beyond the initial authentication exchange, it is very much comparable to Steam. Steam, which you well know, insists on making you register and deal with their client each and every time you want to play. Whether that's "offline" mode or not. BTW, even the folks on the Shamus blog seem to bear out exactly what I'm saying. That Steam's offline mode is a lie. So take that for what it's worth to you.[/quote']Yeah, everybody in the world knows that Steam's offline mode is a lie, which is why you haven't heard me say one word about it. Nor, since it's particularly related to any of the things you've brought up, did I figure it was any kind of solution for you.The comments I was reading on the matter seemed to suggest that, in fact, GFWL was almost precisely like Steam in that it wanted you to log in a lot and insisted on running in the background. Since neither of us appears to have any sort of clue, however, I'd suggest we forget about it.
The odds are more in favor of your account being randomly blacklisted due to bank errors. That said' date=' the choice of how far to go with SecuROM is entirely up to the developer. Apparently M2TW decided to go balls out with the entire package. That's well known to be nasty for Vista users, and probably Win7 users too. Bethesda didn't do this with FO3 and used the far less intrusive disc-check-only version. Which as you also know can be bypassed entirely - and legally - with a direct shortcut to the game EXE itself. Try that with your Steam games and get back to me when Steam allows this to happen.[/quote']Well, actually, as I've said, the odds are more in favor of it actually working, which to be fair is also true of Securom in my experience. And I don't really have a problem with disc-check Securom either, for that matter. Horse apiece in my estimation. And in any event, you've already said you don't have a problem with Steam as DRM, so whatever.
Not surprised. It's a ridiculously common complaint for F:NV' date=' Civ 5, and numerous other supposedly "install from disc" retail copies. Steam simply isn't reliable in this sense, and I don't need to have used it to reach that conclusion. From the number of complaints, you're one of the lucky ones where it just works.[/quote']Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's a great thing to have happen, and I surely hope that's being worked on. That said, on the scale of catastrophies, it's pretty low.
Here's a suggestion to both developers - drop the damn thing and you won't have to openly threaten your customers to stop voicing their consumer opinion to you about it.
This is also' date=' let me note, not a solution I have a problem with. Just saying.
Also what my buddies expected but in reality not what actually happened.
Yeah' date=' definitely not my very very recent experience at all, wherein expectation indeed lined up with actual reality.For another data point, I asked Whir just now, and he lets Steam run all the time (I just fire it up when I need it), and he had no idea there were ads in the first place. I'm sure the rest of the Steam users here can provide their own experiences. Even so, it's a pretty small thing.
Wrong again. DLC worked fine. I bought Warden's Keep through their system and it was installed and still fully functional while I was experimenting with the block via the firewall. No notices about being unable to authenticate it.
It is apparently either selective or they've removed the feature' date=' since I just killed the internet entirely and things worked. Didn't even get the usual error messages. Which, as I say, is decidedly not the way it ever behaved in the past, which was no login, no DLC.In the event, considering how much logging in I had to do to get to the DLC in the first place, the point may as well be moot, but.
I'm well aware Dragon Age will phone in for achievements and plenty of other things. You read my review' date=' you know I poked at it to see the extent of what got sent, and you are also entirely and fully aware of the real truth - it does NONE of that if you do not log in to the social networking portion of the system. Steam does not allow you to play unless the client is running, period.[/quote']Yeah, I know, and I if I'm not mistaken, I also remember you opting in to at least some of those things.
Windows sends hardware profiling info when you activate. I have not caught it attempting to phone home for anything other than regular update checks since it's been installed. And I opted in to the update checks' date=' so I'm fully aware of what it's looking for when it does those.[/quote']As far as I'm concerned, doing it however many times isn't somehow worse than once. Once you're off that particular cliff, you're off that cliff.
What is the blog doing that would qualify for this other than what every last web application on Earth does with the login cookie? Being the principal author of the software' date=' and it being entirely open source, you can look at it yourself and see what it does with that login cookie. What else is it supposedly doing?[/quote']You may, as always, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked both of our blogs make use of Google Analytics. Which I am sure you are aware collects all manner of aggregated data from users about system specs, searches, location, and whatever else without any kind of consent or knowledge. What Steam is doing here isn't any different than that, and hell, you even know about it and can consent to it. For that matter, tracking searches is more invasive than anything Steam ever did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
May of 2010 was the early days? For that matter' date=' the thing with AoE III I also linked was in November. Did something happen in the last month I'm completely unaware of?[/quote']Early days in regard to the only experience I'm apparently allowed to have an opinion on, yes.
As far as Bethesda and GFWL goes, I find it somewhat telling that the stuff they've put out since FO3 stayed very, very far away from it.
People bitched. Not unlike they're doing now because of Steam. So if the pattern holds, perhaps they'll try something different. That would be refreshing to see happen. What we apparently can't count on though is a disc-only check.
Well, actually, as I've said, the odds are more in favor of it actually working, which to be fair is also true of Securom in my experience. And I don't really have a problem with disc-check Securom either, for that matter. Horse apiece in my estimation. And in any event, you've already said you don't have a problem with Steam as DRM, so whatever.
With the DRM, no, with the extra baggage that has no business being attached to it, yes. Steamworks is not the same thing as Steam. Steamworks is the DRM package, and even Valve says it's an independent module that doesn't require the use of the actual Steam client. It just seems the developers who use it are either all clueless, or got suckered into using the Steam client as well. Why the hell sandbox games need that is beyond me though.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's a great thing to have happen, and I surely hope that's being worked on. That said, on the scale of catastrophies, it's pretty low.
Unless you're Conner, or one guy I found a few months back via Google who only has dial-up. Then it becomes a very real problem to have Steam insist on trying to download 12GB. As you seem fond of making fun of my being in CA, not everyone in the USA lives here and has access to FiOS, or even cable/DSL. I'd even bet real money that the majority of gamers DON'T have large scale internet connections at their disposal at home.
For another data point, I asked Whir just now, and he lets Steam run all the time (I just fire it up when I need it), and he had no idea there were ads in the first place. I'm sure the rest of the Steam users here can provide their own experiences. Even so, it's a pretty small thing.
Folks in the Skyrim forum report everything from "I never see them" to "they pop up all the god damned time and I'm sick of it". So take it for what it's worth. The "stop spamming me" option isn't reliable.
It is apparently either selective or they've removed the feature, since I just killed the internet entirely and things worked. Didn't even get the usual error messages. Which, as I say, is decidedly not the way it ever behaved in the past, which was no login, no DLC.
Well Kayle just said it does that on the Xbox, so it's not entirely false. On the PC though, as you just saw, it isn't an issue. If it ever was, it never bothered me about it.
Yeah, I know, and I if I'm not mistaken, I also remember you opting in to at least some of those things.
I allowed it to do everything it wanted, but I don't log into the system every time I play either. That's the point. I have that choice. Everything I've found about Steam says I only partially have that choice, based on the client's whims and not mine. The whole offline mode being a lie thing, remember?
As far as I'm concerned, doing it however many times isn't somehow worse than once. Once you're off that particular cliff, you're off that cliff.
True, and I'm not disputing the privacy invasion it represents because in M$'s case, they DO know who you are and CAN track that. However, surely you must see that the alternative is either use linux or get a Mac? Both of which mean you don't game on your computer. You either don't game, or you get a console. I sense a pattern here.I'm far more willing to deal with it on a one-shot basis than I am to have it done all the time, every time, and actively engaging in it when I just want to play.
You may, as always, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked both of our blogs make use of Google Analytics. Which I am sure you are aware collects all manner of aggregated data from users about system specs, searches, location, and whatever else without any kind of consent or knowledge.
Ah. I thought you might have meant something nefarious that perhaps I didn't know about. You may or may not be aware of it, but GA data has no identifying markers. I can't point to a particular data set and say "that's Dwip's click". Yes, it logs browser info, ISP info (in the general sense), Geolocation data that is derived from the IP, and quite a bit of other stuff. But guess what? Your browser offers all that information up to anyone who might want to do something with it. Your IP is quite obviously necessary to even navigate. Your browser has to tell the site it knows Flash to display Flash content. Your IP can be used by anyone at any time to find out what ISP you're with, and most of the time what region of the country you're in. Block too much of it from being sent, and things break, and there's nothing you can do about that.
What Steam is doing here isn't any different than that, and hell, you even know about it and can consent to it. For that matter, tracking searches is more invasive than anything Steam ever did.
Google can't track searches if you don't use it. Use Bing. Use Yahoo. Use some other obscure search engine. The search data GA shows you comes from the search engine itself, and tells you how people are finding you. That search was willingly submitted. It wasn't mined from your PC without your knowledge.Your browser doesn't refuse to operate when you do this. Your game however does if you refuse to engage Steam. Which if you've been paying attention is more or less the point I'm making.People bitch endlessly about being locked into Windows, yet for some totally unfathomable reason, they fling themselves willingly over the cliff known as Steam without even a second thought to all of the personally identifiable information you're forced to give them. At least if GFWL starts forcing you to log in, you can feed them an alias and some bogus address information. If you're buying stuff on Steam, they've got way more data on you than Google could ever hope to gather. And you're doing it eyes wide open acting as though it's the greatest thing ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People bitched. Not unlike they're doing now because of Steam. So if the pattern holds' date=' perhaps they'll try something different. That would be refreshing to see happen. What we apparently can't count on though is a disc-only check.[/quote']We'll see, I guess. I mean, how many high-profile games have we actually seen Steamworks on, anyway? A few that came out in 2010 to my knowledge. And I've made the point before that, to be fair, if you're going to do the DLC thing, it does seem to make a lot of sense to go the Steam route, especially considering the fiasco of the Oblivion DLC store. Speaking of annoying DRM, bugs, and bad customer service.So I dunno. We haven't had enough time to really tell yet.
Unless you're Conner' date=' or one guy I found a few months back via Google who only has dial-up. Then it becomes a very real problem to have Steam insist on trying to download 12GB. As you seem fond of making fun of my being in CA, not everyone in the USA lives here and has access to FiOS, or even cable/DSL. I'd even bet real money that the majority of gamers DON'T have large scale internet connections at their disposal at home.[/quote']Yeah, and I'm not going to attempt to argue any of that even a little. It's definitely not your situation, however, which is mostly what we've been talking about.For whatever this is worth, I don't think any of the games I've downloaded off Steam were ever above 2 and change gigs for the download (not the install). Pretty sure they compress the shit out of that stuff. Which doesn't really change the point much at all, but.
I allowed it to do everything it wanted' date=' but I don't log into the system every time I play either. That's the point. I have that choice. Everything I've found about Steam says I only partially have that choice, based on the client's whims and not mine. The whole offline mode being a lie thing, remember?[/quote']Yeah, you are pretty much dependent on Steam, that's true. And, you know, you know that going in, so. It's not like that's really a surprise. Too, I find that, in practice it's just not that big deal. I've only seen Steam ever down once or twice for a couple hours, and for those of us with always on internet connections, who really cares, you know?
Ah. I thought you might have meant something nefarious that perhaps I didn't know about. You may or may not be aware of it' date=' but GA data has no identifying markers. I can't point to a particular data set and say "that's Dwip's click". Yes, it logs browser info, ISP info (in the general sense), Geolocation data that is derived from the IP, and quite a bit of other stuff. But guess what? Your browser offers all that information up to anyone who might want to do something with it. Your IP is quite obviously necessary to even navigate. Your browser has to tell the site it knows Flash to display Flash content. Your IP can be used by anyone at any time to find out what ISP you're with, and most of the time what region of the country you're in. Block too much of it from being sent, and things break, and there's nothing you can do about that.[/quote']You're slightly to the side of my point, which isn't so much that YOU know all that stuff about me, it's that GOOGLE knows all that stuff, and for that matter if you used Bing or Yahoo, they'd collect about the same stuff. My point is that Steam collects the same or less info, and makes even less of it publicly available than what Google Analytics does. Either way, big company has some random info about you. Eh.To be sure, it'd be one thing if Valve were Facebook, with Facebook's ethics. But they're not, so it's probably less nefarious than what happens browsing the web every day. Not a big deal in my mind.
Google can't track searches if you don't use it. Use Bing. Use Yahoo. Use some other obscure search engine. The search data GA shows you comes from the search engine itself' date=' and tells you how people are finding you. That search was willingly submitted. It wasn't mined from your PC without your knowledge.[/quote']Yeah, as I say, Google is hardly unique among search engines in what they collect. For that matter, a lot of what they collect is accessible by other people as well through other means - IP data is obviously pretty trivial. And you pretty much aren't going to know who's collecting what on the web - who really knows that you and I run GA, for instance? Steam, well, you know. It's not a secret. They tell you.
People bitch endlessly about being locked into Windows' date=' yet for some totally unfathomable reason, they fling themselves willingly over the cliff known as Steam without even a second thought to all of the personally identifiable information you're forced to give them. At least if GFWL starts forcing you to log in, you can feed them an alias and some bogus address information. If you're buying stuff on Steam, they've got way more data on you than Google could ever hope to gather. And you're doing it eyes wide open acting as though it's the greatest thing ever.[/quote']Yeah, and you need about as much to get a Steam login as you do a Hotmail/WL login, which is damn little. Nobody's forcing you to give Valve your credit card info. Yeah, you need to if you buy something FROM THEM, but that's hardly unique - you give all manner of people your credit card info all the damn time. I'm not sure how that's even objectionable.Not sure what the big deal there is. For that matter, not sure what the big deal is period, as I've said. You do almost all of this stuff in other contexts anyway, and the only problem here seems to be the little gear logo on the thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We'll see' date=' I guess. I mean, how many high-profile games have we actually seen Steamworks on, anyway? A few that came out in 2010 to my knowledge. And I've made the point before that, to be fair, if you're going to do the DLC thing, it does seem to make a lot of sense to go the Steam route, especially considering the fiasco of the Oblivion DLC store. Speaking of annoying DRM, bugs, and bad customer service.[/quote']Shouldn't that question be more like "How many games have used Steamworks DRM?" instead? You're making the same fatal mistake in your argument as every other Steam supporter I've run into. You're conflating the DRM with the entire rest of the service when even Valve doesn't do that. Steamworks does not require the use of Steam, and Steam does not require the game to use Steamworks DRM.What part of it's not the DRM I'm objecting to isn't getting through here?
Yeah, and I'm not going to attempt to argue any of that even a little. It's definitely not your situation, however, which is mostly what we've been talking about.
Except it is, when we're talking about the potential for a large DVD release to up and decide to download whatever it feels like despite there being no need. I will balk at being shot in the face with a 12GB download any day. You should know me well enough that I'd be back at the store challenging the EULA to get my money back on something that pulled that kind of shit.
and for those of us with always on internet connections, who really cares, you know?
You're doing it again btw.
You're slightly to the side of my point, which isn't so much that YOU know all that stuff about me, it's that GOOGLE knows all that stuff, and for that matter if you used Bing or Yahoo, they'd collect about the same stuff.
Google, and the server logs on every website you've ever visited know all that stuff about you. Apache logs the IP, user agent string, and referrer data for every connection made to it. The big search guys are obviously collecting a bit more than that, but they've been doing it for 20 years now. What they don't know is everything else, except for M$, who with Windows users DOES have the capacity to link your search data via the IP to your Windows activation data and thus personally identify it as yours.
My point is that Steam collects the same or less info, and makes even less of it publicly available than what Google Analytics does. Either way, big company has some random info about you. Eh.
Depends on how random, but yes. Valve at least tells you they collect it. Which changes nothing, because you have to consent to letting them collect it or, guess what, you can't get the game to run. So as far as I'm concerned they already have Facebook's ethics. Even if the general public doesn't think they do yet, that will change. It's inevitable. They'll eventually realize they have monopoly control over the gaming market and become what most of us on the anti-Steam side have been warning you is coming.Also, last I checked, my Analytics data isn't publicly available unless I make it available.
And you pretty much aren't going to know who's collecting what on the web - who really knows that you and I run GA, for instance? Steam, well, you know. It's not a secret. They tell you.
Anyone who has visited my blog on a regular enough basis knows I have GA. You can also check the HTML source of any page you visit to see if they collect it as well. I even make a yearly tradition out of discussing the data in January. You should know this. It's not a secret. Seeing as how you also run GA, you're fully aware of what you can know from it. None of us are fully aware of what Steam actually knows even if we know they collected something. You have only their word to go by, and I dunno, I don't particularly trust nebulous 3rd parties who have nothing to do with my games to be telling me the truth about what they do with all that data. They'll eventually get to the point where selling that information will look mighty tempting.
Nobody's forcing you to give Valve your credit card info. Yeah, you need to if you buy something FROM THEM, but that's hardly unique - you give all manner of people your credit card info all the damn time. I'm not sure how that's even objectionable.
When I buy something with a credit card in a store, I get the goods. If something happens that messes up the transaction after I've taken possession, they don't break down my door and take it away from me by force. They send me a letter in the mail politely informing me something went wrong. Usually they fixed it long before I was even told.Valve has the CC info. They have been documented as abusing customers by effectively stealing ALL of their locked-in content. Including that which was not purchased from them. They have also been documented as reporting you as a fraud risk to the credit reporting agencies in the event of those little fuck ups like what happened to both of my friends who got shafted by Valve. They're both still trying to get that part of the shitstorm corrected because Valve keeps insisting that they're both thieves despite the banks both insisting they're not and that Valve is the thief. I'll take Facebook's ethics any day if this is supposed to be the shining example of Valve's ethics.
Not sure what the big deal there is.
You know exactly what the big deal is. I think I've more than adequately explained that. I just don't think you want to see it because it worked for you and you aren't willing to accept that other people hate it for perfectly legitimate reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kayle - I have the clever, unguessable name of Dwip.And I'll hold off on the rest, since I need to go help some people survive the zombie apocalypse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No zombie apocalypse was, in fact, survived. Grrrrrr. Raaaa.

Shouldn't that question be more like "How many games have used Steamworks DRM?" instead? You're making the same fatal mistake in your argument as every other Steam supporter I've run into. You're conflating the DRM with the entire rest of the service when even Valve doesn't do that. Steamworks does not require the use of Steam' date=' and Steam does not require the game to use Steamworks DRM. What part of it's not the DRM I'm objecting to isn't getting through here?[/quote']To be a little clearer, the choice that seems to have been made with at the least Civ 5 was "Well, we're going with Steamworks anyway, so we may as well go whole hog with Steam and do our DLCs with their store as well." F:NV may or may not be the same, CoD: Black Ops definitely has. You were talking about people bitching, not about you, so.My larger point is that they tried the store thing with Oblivion, GFWL with Fallout 3, Steam with New Vegas, and we may or may not get something else entirely based on reactions to the previous set of stuff.
Except it is' date=' when we're talking about the potential for a large DVD release to up and decide to download whatever it feels like despite there being no need. I will balk at being shot in the face with a 12GB download any day. You should know me well enough that I'd be back at the store challenging the EULA to get my money back on something that pulled that kind of shit.[/quote']Where did 12 GB come from, anyway? In the event, as I say, I feel this is an unlikely outcome. There's also a chance that, say, my Windows registry will end up corrupted, too, but it's not something I spend much time worrying about. You maybe not so much.
You're doing it again btw.
Wait' date=' what?
Google' date=' and the server logs on every website you've ever visited know all that stuff about you. Apache logs the IP, user agent string, and referrer data for every connection made to it. The big search guys are obviously collecting a bit more than that, but they've been doing it for 20 years now. What they don't know is everything else, except for M$, who with Windows users DOES have the capacity to link your search data via the IP to your Windows activation data and thus personally identify it as yours.[/quote']None of which particularly changes my point.
Depends on how random' date=' but yes. Valve at least tells you they collect it. Which changes nothing, because you have to consent to letting them collect it or, guess what, you can't get the game to run. So as far as I'm concerned they already have Facebook's ethics. Even if the general public doesn't think they do yet, that will change. It's inevitable. They'll eventually realize they have monopoly control over the gaming market and become what most of us on the anti-Steam side have been warning you is coming. Also, last I checked, my Analytics data isn't publicly available unless I make it available.[/quote']No, Facebook's ethics would be if they were collecting your info without you knowing it, then publishing it to all and sundry, including your name, your email, etc. Valve isn't anything like that kind of evil, nor in the 6 or 7 years I've seen their services have they ever given any indication of anything of the nature. And no, it's not inevitable at all, or else Google, Microsoft, and everybody else would have done so long ago.You are aware, I trust, that there does exist competition to Steam. If it was actually good competition, more people might actually use it. As-is, well, not so much. As it is, Valve's offering a product with reasonable quality that a lot of people like to use.
Anyone who has visited my blog on a regular enough basis knows I have GA. You can also check the HTML source of any page you visit to see if they collect it as well. I even make a yearly tradition out of discussing the data in January. You should know this. It's not a secret. Seeing as how you also run GA' date=' you're fully aware of what you can know from it. None of us are fully aware of what Steam actually knows even if we know they collected something. You have only their word to go by, and I dunno, I don't particularly trust nebulous 3rd parties who have nothing to do with my games to be telling me the truth about what they do with all that data. They'll eventually get to the point where selling that information will look mighty tempting.[/quote']Yes, true, I suppose they could. As could Microsoft. Or Adobe. Or whoever. Show me the evidence. Because the evidence I have is that they're doing all of basically nothing with all of basically no information.Again, as opposed to your average web browsing session, where who knows who could be collecting who knows what for who knows why. Advertising, usually. Shit, even when Steam throws ads at me, they're not even targeted at me. You'd think they could at least do that. I mean, that's at least minimally evil or something, right? But no, they don't.On the other hand, Valve is taking for god damned ever to finish Half-Life 2: Episode Three, which yeah, I guess is pretty evil when you look at it.
When I buy something with a credit card in a store' date=' I get the goods. If something happens that messes up the transaction after I've taken possession, they don't break down my door and take it away from me by force. They send me a letter in the mail politely informing me something went wrong. Usually they fixed it long before I was even told.[/quote']So like every transaction I've ever had or heard of with Steam then, you mean.Look, I'm not going to fight this particular fight with you. Nobody's ever going to force you to buy anything through Steam. You don't wanna, that's fine.
You know exactly what the big deal is. I think I've more than adequately explained that. I just don't think you want to see it because it worked for you and you aren't willing to accept that other people hate it for perfectly legitimate reasons.
Yes, I accept that you have issues, and I even accept that some of them are perfectly legitimate, although I happen to disagree with them. As I say, though, considering the other exceptions you make for other things and considering what you seem to be willing to subject yourself to to avoid this particular bit of software, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But, hey, whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To be a little clearer' date=' the choice that seems to have been made with at the least Civ 5 was "Well, we're going with Steamworks anyway, so we may as well go whole hog with Steam and do our DLCs with their store as well." F:NV may or may not be the same, CoD: Black Ops definitely has. You were talking about people bitching, not about you, so.[/quote']What you just described is basically the point. They look at Steamworks DRM, then figure, hell we're already using part of it just use the whole thing. Nobody will care.Then they find out they were wrong and about 30% of the customer base not only cares, but is being extremely vocal about being forced into something they don't want. With probably about 1/3 of those people openly stating they'll pass on buying the game because of it.I sure hope you're right and 2010 ends up being a fluke once the marketing guys get beat over the head with the truth, but somehow I'm not hopeful of that. I've worked in the corporate arena. Glacial paced doesn't begin to describe it. By the time they realize shit's gone to hell, people have abandoned them.
Where did 12 GB come from, anyway?
Size of the download for F:NV for one. There's other stuff that's reported to be even larger than that.
Valve isn't anything like that kind of evil, nor in the 6 or 7 years I've seen their services have they ever given any indication of anything of the nature.
That you know of anyway. People said the same about Microsoft at one time. Turned out to be wrong. Said the same about Google and "do no evil". Turned out to be wrong. Said the same thing about MySpace. Turned out to be wrong. Said the same about Facebook. Turned out to be wrong. They all lied to their users' faces, some taking longer than others to come clean, but I have zero reason to trust Valve and take them at their word that they're not evil either.
And no, it's not inevitable at all, or else Google, Microsoft, and everybody else would have done so long ago.
They already are.
You are aware, I trust, that there does exist competition to Steam. If it was actually good competition, more people might actually use it. As-is, well, not so much. As it is, Valve's offering a product with reasonable quality that a lot of people like to use.
I've heard the same argument about Microsoft and people using Windows. The obvious flaw here should be obvious as hell.
Yes, true, I suppose they could. As could Microsoft. Or Adobe. Or whoever. Show me the evidence. Because the evidence I have is that they're doing all of basically nothing with all of basically no information.
Again, that you know of. You've already seen several companies lie about what they did and didn't collect and then sell behind your backs. Only the naive would assume Valve isn't doing the same.
So like every transaction I've ever had or heard of with Steam then, you mean.
Except that in the future, should something go wrong, and you find yourself in the same shoes as my two friends, it will be the equivalent of Sears showing up at your door because you missed a payment and confiscating everything you've ever bought from them, and denying you access to stuff you didn't buy from them either, then banning you from ever setting foot in any of their stores. Ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, apparently Valve went off and changed the rules on what Steamworks is and does in the last 6 months or so because their site now describes it as a truly invasive and aggressively intrusive system that deeply integrates with the game. So fuck. I'd hate to have to circumvent things by using a crack, but it's starting to sound like that's going to be the only viable solution to playing the game without all the bullshit. Especially since people on the BGS forums are starting to claim Todd confirmed Skyrim will be a Steam release :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got snubbed by a mod before this post got added, so... yeah...

Steam cannot be optional or the entire point of a DRM is defeated' date=' they use Steam to reduce theft and improve ease of upgrades, etc. It worked very well with New Vegas overall.[/quote']It might have made getting patches slightly less hassle for lazy people who can't surf webpages, but it did nothing at all to curb piracy. There are pirate versions of F:NV out there in great numbers if you know where to look. They were there on the day of the actual release too, with no Steam attached. Word has it that the pirate version of the game was even more stable than the Steam version. I wouldn't know, as F:NV wasn't compelling enough for me to put up with Steam or risk the possibility of malware from other sources.It's become apparent though that companies don't care that forceably imposing steam on their users is costing them sales. So be it. I'm sure that will make Microsoft and Sony very happy for the ones who opt to spend their money that way instead. Not all of those opposed to Steam will choose that option. Some will simply not buy the game at all, and will be very vocal in that choice in the hopes that the company will listen.If someone wants to buy the game through Steam, that's great. If someone wants to by retail disc (me) that's great too. If those people want to use the features Steam offers (why the hell would you?) then that's fine too. More power to you. But there's plenty of us who just don't want it no matter how many Steam lovers try to convince us otherwise.The very idea that an uninvolved 3rd party has total control over my right to play a game I've purchased elsewhere is abhorrent. At least with disc checks no uninvolved 3rd party has any control over the process. Spare me the SecuROM falsehoods too, the program isn't anywhere close to as evil as Valve holding a universal kill switch over you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd recommend an Xbox 360 over the PS3 [...]
Since this topic is called random stuff I'll take that up. [...]
So' date=' since the two of you decided to take up this particular debate within a topic that's specifically geared towards making pretty much nothing off-topic anyway.. what do the two of you (or others too' date=' for that matter) think of the Wii? My wife's been wanting one for awhile now because her folks got one and she really thinks she'd like it enough to use it far more than we ever get around to using our PS2 (the only gaming console we still have here).
Otherwise, I'm going to keep out of the Steam debate, because I don't really know anything much about it.
I think I'm going to gracefully bow out of the Steam debate as I clearly don't know nearly as much about it as I thought I did, let alone enough to keep up with the back and forth on it between these guys. Instead, I'll just leave it at what I already said. For me, it seems like a bad thing, but not enough so that I'll arbitrarily give up on anything supported by it because it hasn't bit me so far. :shrug:
@Conner - It's the sort of thing where I overuse that particular phrase a whole hell of a lot' date=' so I like to blame me. Gives me feelings of power, POWER! buahahahahaha!....sorry.[/quote']:lol: Quite alright, I just had to ask. ;)
Right' date=' because I have monster bandwidth capable of downloading multi-gigabyte games on a whim. I see. Oh wait' date=' no, I don't. You talk about embracing the future. Think for a second will you? That's the future you're advocating I embrace. One which would necessitate me getting a fiber optic connection in order to make that reality not suck the donkey balls it would suck on a 3Mbit DSL line. It's already difficult enough to download several hundred megabytes for mods. I don't have the capacity to withstand downloading 12GB to play a game that should have been sold at retail.[/quote'']Well, I dunno. I've got about that level of cable connection, and in fact, I downloaded, oh, about 12 gigs spread over 4 games in let us say 6 hours to be overly generous. While I web surfed and did some other stuff with my computer. Steam has really fast servers. It's not particularly onerous.And for fuck's sake, that's only if you're actually buying things through Steam. Maybe patches, but even the biggest patches don't seem to take more than about 5 minutes. In fact, as I was typing this, Steam downloaded a 35 meg Left4Dead 2 patch, and it was over so fast I didn't even notice.
Damn, must be nice. :sigh: F-ing satellite... :headbang:& grumble mode>
Nice GFWL screen. Good thing I've never once seen such a thing and since it's not even installed and FO3 fires up just fine' date=' I guess you haven't really proven your point or something.[/quote']Actually, I do still have GFWL installed, on this very computer in fact, but I've also never seen that screen before this either. Guess I'd never bothered to make the effort to see what M$ had to offer at their Marketplace. :shrug:
Kayle seems to have made a strong case in favor of the XBox 360 Slim' date=' so there's that. Thus far I've not wanted to go down the console road because of mods and better resolutions on the PC, along with generally better performance. I have in fact been considering getting a PS3 because of all this BS lately, and yes, it would mean I'd be exiting the modding scene. You can chalk that tragedy up to Steam and its insidious bullshit. I've had people actually plead with me over PMs to not do that because they want to see what I might come up with for Skyrim.[/quote']I didn't even know you were considering that route, but I must admit I'm sorry to hear that you're thinking the purchase of a gaming console might preclude your further use of a computer. It seems like an extreme reaction even from you to me. :(
You don't really mind the activation stuff' date=' which is the number one biggest reason people hate Steam.[/quote']Yes. You read that right. I don't mind the activation stuff. Provided that's *ALL* I'm required to do. You'll once again note that I had no objection to it for Gothic 4' date=' Two Worlds 1, Dragon Age, and I'm sure a few other things I'm forgetting right now. At least you haven't pulled the tired old line of "well would you rather have Ubisoft DRM" on me. Because no, I wouldn't. Also, if you've paid any attention to the debates on the subject at all (doesn't look like you have) most people who voice hatred for Steam are voicing it against things OTHER than the DRM.[/quote']Actually, unless my memory has somehow suddenly failed me altogether, we've had games that phoned home with registration info since long before the internet really even existed. In fact, I still have quite a few older games that require you to complete some mini survey and then choose to use your modem to phone in your answers, print it for faxing, or print it for mailing as the last step in installation. A simple one time activation/registration doesn't actually bother me at all. :shrug:
Injecting some randomness again here - I just saw the download progress bar in Firefox actually go backwards for about 5 seconds. I've never seen it do that before.
Does that mean that it rejected part of the download and sent it back for retransmission? Back in the BBS days' date=' I'd seen the zmodem protocol do things like that from (rare) time to time for a few blocks of data, but it's been nearly a decade since the last time I'd seen it...
Yeah' date=' don't get me wrong' date=' I'm not saying that's a great thing to have happen, and I surely hope that's being worked on. That said, on the scale of catastrophies, it's pretty low.[/quote'']Unless you're Conner, or one guy I found a few months back via Google who only has dial-up. Then it becomes a very real problem to have Steam insist on trying to download 12GB. As you seem fond of making fun of my being in CA, not everyone in the USA lives here and has access to FiOS, or even cable/DSL. I'd even bet real money that the majority of gamers DON'T have large scale internet connections at their disposal at home.
Yeah' date=' and I'm not going to attempt to argue any of that even a little. It's definitely not your situation, however, which is mostly what we've been talking about. For whatever this is worth, I don't think any of the games I've downloaded off Steam were ever above 2 and change gigs for the download (not the install). Pretty sure they compress the shit out of that stuff. Which doesn't really change the point much at all, but.[/quote']Actually, the way my satellite feed works, something like that would be pretty bad, if it happened during hours outside my "download free zone" window. I'd never actually get the download. I'd get through the first 300-400 MB of it and be shutdown by the provider for the next 24 hours. In my world, that's mildly but fairly catastrophic.I know this is what would happen because I've had windows updater do that to me once or twice before since moving here. :(As for the majority of gamers, I really couldn't knowledgeably address that, but my own guess would be that, given the low cost of DSL/Cable and their popularity these days, the majority of gamers do, in fact, have access to reasonably high capacity broadband these days. It's those of us who live in rural outskirts that don't have access to it. As much as I'd love to have a louder voice in the telecommunications arena, we're a fairly small minority or the phone companies and cable companies would be making a much larger push to see Obama's dream of seeing a broadband in ever pot (or was that a chicken?) come true. :shrug:
And you pretty much aren't going to know who's collecting what on the web - who really knows that you and I run GA' date=' for instance? Steam, well, you know. It's not a secret. They tell you.[/quote']
Anyone who has visited my blog on a regular enough basis knows I have GA. You can also check the HTML source of any page you visit to see if they collect it as well. I even make a yearly tradition out of discussing the data in January. You should know this. It's not a secret. Seeing as how you also run GA' date=' you're fully aware of what you can know from it. None of us are fully aware of what Steam actually knows even if we know they collected something. You have only their word to go by, and I dunno, I don't particularly trust nebulous 3rd parties who have nothing to do with my games to be telling me the truth about what they do with all that data. They'll eventually get to the point where selling that information will look mighty tempting.[/quote']Actually, aside from Samson making it a big deal annually, I notice it on every site that I visit that runs it because my browser tells me it's transacting with Google Analytics while I wait for the site to finish loading. At one point I even considered blocking it through Firefox, but I realized that it's mostly harmless data harvesting and would impact far more sites than I cared to impact, so instead I mostly barely tolerate it a few dozen times daily.
Also' date=' apparently Valve went off and changed the rules on what Steamworks is and does in the last 6 months or so because their site now describes it as a truly invasive and aggressively intrusive system that deeply integrates with the game. So fuck. I'd hate to have to circumvent things by using a crack, but it's starting to sound like that's going to be the only viable solution to playing the game without all the bullshit. Especially since people on the BGS forums are starting to claim Todd confirmed Skyrim will be a Steam release :([/quote']Seriously? They describe their own product in such terms now? Or was their site hacked or some such?
If someone wants to buy the game through Steam' date=' that's great. If someone wants to by retail disc (me) that's great too.[/quote']Now see, this is the real crux of the debate to me. I don't know that Steam is really nearly as evil as Samson's trying to paint it, nor as holy as Kayle seems to feel, but the idea that you won't even be able to install a copy of the game that was retail bought on disc without it being attached to Steam (potentially from some other game's install) is pretty bothersome.Damn, that was a huge wall of text to try to get caught back up... :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So' date=' since the two of you decided to take up this particular debate within a topic that's specifically geared towards making pretty much nothing off-topic anyway.. what do the two of you (or others too, for that matter) think of the Wii? My wife's been wanting one for awhile now because her folks got one and she really thinks she'd like it enough to use it far more than we ever get around to using our PS2 (the only gaming console we still have here).[/quote']The Wii is an interesting concept, quite novel in fact. It doesn't have any games I'm all that interested in though so I don't see much of a desire to buy one.
Damn, must be nice. :sigh: F-ing satellite... :headbang:& grumble mode>
Yes, it must, because despite what Dwip thinks, I don't have the capacity to handle a download of that magnitude. The theoretical capacity of my line is 3Mbit, which roughly translates to about 350KB/s. I have *NEVER* seen actual throughput that high though. The closest I've come is about 300KB/s off of some linux site I was grabbing an ISO from. A 650MB ISO which took a great deal of time to acquire due to the fact that the 300KB/s wasn't sustained over the entire download period. That was on the server btw, which for whatever reason seems to be able to maintain more steady speeds. I simply can't imagine trying to push 12GB over the wire through to the Windows box with as flaky as that usually is even for smaller files.
I didn't even know you were considering that route, but I must admit I'm sorry to hear that you're thinking the purchase of a gaming console might preclude your further use of a computer. It seems like an extreme reaction even from you to me. :(
I am, for gaming purposes. I would almost certainly still use a PC for internet and other non-gaming related things. Like I said, it would almost certainly remove me from the modding scene but I'm willing to pay that price in the face of assholery on the level of Steam. It's called just say no to Valve's universal and totally arbitrary kill switch that can shut down every game attached to it.
Actually, unless my memory has somehow suddenly failed me altogether, we've had games that phoned home with registration info since long before the internet really even existed. In fact, I still have quite a few older games that require you to complete some mini survey and then choose to use your modem to phone in your answers, print it for faxing, or print it for mailing as the last step in installation. A simple one time activation/registration doesn't actually bother me at all. :shrug:
We have, and I have plenty of titles that offer to register online. I've never allowed a single one to actually do so for the purposes they state on the registration screens. They all still play just fine, and Valve isn't in a position to mercilessly steal them from me on a whim. Of those games with online DRM authentication, they all have done so one single time and ALL they ever ask for is the game's CD/DVD key that's provided in the box.
Does that mean that it rejected part of the download and sent it back for retransmission? Back in the BBS days, I'd seen the zmodem protocol do things like that from (rare) time to time for a few blocks of data, but it's been nearly a decade since the last time I'd seen it...
Probably something like that. I never saw this even back in the BBS days when I was heavily involved with such things. I thought I was tripping at first, but it definitely did it.
Actually, aside from Samson making it a big deal annually, I notice it on every site that I visit that runs it because my browser tells me it's transacting with Google Analytics while I wait for the site to finish loading. At one point I even considered blocking it through Firefox, but I realized that it's mostly harmless data harvesting and would impact far more sites than I cared to impact, so instead I mostly barely tolerate it a few dozen times daily.
World + Dog uses GA these days. However, World + Dog generally does not have your real name or CC# on hand either. And they certainly don't possess the power to shut off your browser and lock you out from ever using it again if you piss them off.
Seriously? They describe their own product in such terms now? Or was their site hacked or some such?
No, they don't describe it in truthful terms like that. They used flowery marketing speak to make it sound attractive and useful to anyone who might be interested in it. The reality is, based on what their site now says, that's precisely what it is. It's as bad, or probably worse, than every argument Dwip has made against GFWL in this topic. I say worse, because M$ has no universal kill switch to terminate your right to play any games that might use their client just because something went wrong with a transaction.Actually, I dare say, their points system makes screwing people that way impossible. So they have no motivation to cut you off at the knees for bank errors. You just don't get the points you thought you paid for. I think I can live with that rather than suddenly finding out one day I'd be unable to play Skyrim because some other unrelated thing fucked up. Although, since I will be buying retail disc, I can't be entirely cut off. Cracks FTW.
Now see, this is the real crux of the debate to me. I don't know that Steam is really nearly as evil as Samson's trying to paint it, nor as holy as Kayle seems to feel, but the idea that you won't even be able to install a copy of the game that was retail bought on disc without it being attached to Steam (potentially from some other game's install) is pretty bothersome.
It is but one core component of the argument. Single player games have zero reason to require the integration of a multi-player gaming platform.I think the kill switch is actually far more insidious though, and I've seen nobody successfully defend it. Probably because it's indefensible to even have one.Also, people claim Valve would be cool and detach all the games from the client if they were to go under. Anyone with half a brain knows that will be the least of their worries should the day come that they're bankrupt and can't pay the bills. It could also happen sooner than you think if people like my two friends ever band together and file class action suits for fraud against Valve. Personally, even if Skyrim is attached to it and I have it on PC, I will welcome the day when Steam is wiped from the face of the Earth and Valve is a smoking ruin brought down by such a lawsuit. They have it coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat related to the topic of Steam, be glad we're not all in Canada: http://www.antiubb.com/Australia-like bandwidth capping with penalizing extra costs for exceeding it. The guy obviously isn't familiar with Australian internet either because both prettyfly and Fury have said they have quotas. I'd also question the claim that the US is poorer than Canada but that's not really relevant to the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So' date=' since the two of you decided to take up this particular debate within a topic that's specifically geared towards making pretty much nothing off-topic anyway.. what do the two of you (or others too' date=' for that matter) think of the Wii? My wife's been wanting one for awhile now because her folks got one and she really thinks she'd like it enough to use it far more than we ever get around to using our PS2 (the only gaming console we still have here).[/quote'']The Wii is an interesting concept, quite novel in fact. It doesn't have any games I'm all that interested in though so I don't see much of a desire to buy one.
I've really put her off on the idea as much as I could because I don't want to spend money we can ill-afford on a gaming console, let alone that one because it really doesn't have much appeal for me, but she's been quite hooked on the idea for well over a year now so I'm starting to lose ground for arguing. :shrug:
Damn' date=' must be nice. :sigh: F-ing satellite... :headbang:& grumble mode>[/quote']Yes' date=' it must, because despite what Dwip thinks, I don't have the capacity to handle a download of that magnitude. The theoretical capacity of my line is 3Mbit, which roughly translates to about 350KB/s. I have *NEVER* seen actual throughput that high though. The closest I've come is about 300KB/s off of some linux site I was grabbing an ISO from. A 650MB ISO which took a great deal of time to acquire due to the fact that the 300KB/s wasn't sustained over the entire download period. That was on the server btw, which for whatever reason seems to be able to maintain more steady speeds. I simply can't imagine trying to push 12GB over the wire through to the Windows box with as flaky as that usually is even for smaller files.[/quote']On my connection I can usually get up to about 120-150kb/s, so I know what you mean about the idea of downloading something that big taking forever, but for my concerns, I'd be far more fearful of the size compared to my quota limitations. I doubt I could pull 12gb in the five hour window I get at night, and the system would definitely not let me pull it outside of that window.
I didn't even know you were considering that route' date=' but I must admit I'm sorry to hear that you're thinking the purchase of a gaming console might preclude your further use of a computer. It seems like an extreme reaction even from you to me. :([/quote']I am' date=' for gaming purposes. I would almost certainly still use a PC for internet and other non-gaming related things. Like I said, it would almost certainly remove me from the modding scene but I'm willing to pay that price in the face of assholery on the level of Steam. It's called just say no to Valve's universal and totally arbitrary kill switch that can shut down every game attached to it.[/quote']I would've thought asshattery like Giskard would've been a greater impetus but I guess when you start combining such things... either way, it's really a shame that you're considering giving up on computer games and modding.
Actually' date=' unless my memory has somehow suddenly failed me altogether' date=' we've had games that phoned home with registration info since long before the internet really even existed. In fact, I still have quite a few older games that require you to complete some mini survey and then choose to use your modem to phone in your answers, print it for faxing, or print it for mailing as the last step in installation. A simple one time activation/registration doesn't actually bother me at all. :shrug:[/quote'']We have, and I have plenty of titles that offer to register online. I've never allowed a single one to actually do so for the purposes they state on the registration screens. They all still play just fine, and Valve isn't in a position to mercilessly steal them from me on a whim. Of those games with online DRM authentication, they all have done so one single time and ALL they ever ask for is the game's CD/DVD key that's provided in the box.
You've seriously never registered anything?
Does that mean that it rejected part of the download and sent it back for retransmission? Back in the BBS days' date=' I'd seen the zmodem protocol do things like that from (rare) time to time for a few blocks of data' date=' but it's been nearly a decade since the last time I'd seen it...[/quote'']Probably something like that. I never saw this even back in the BBS days when I was heavily involved with such things. I thought I was tripping at first, but it definitely did it.
It was definitely rare even back in the BBS days, but I have seem zmodem do it a few times before. Of course, I was the one running the BBS at the time, as well as using zmodem regularly to download all sorts of things from other BBSes too, so I may have seen it a bit more often than most normally ever would've.
Actually' date=' aside from Samson making it a big deal annually' date=' I notice it on every site that I visit that runs it because my browser tells me it's transacting with Google Analytics while I wait for the site to finish loading. At one point I even considered blocking it through Firefox, but I realized that it's mostly harmless data harvesting and would impact far more sites than I cared to impact, so instead I mostly barely tolerate it a few dozen times daily.[/quote'']World + Dog uses GA these days. However, World + Dog generally does not have your real name or CC# on hand either. And they certainly don't possess the power to shut off your browser and lock you out from ever using it again if you piss them off.
I suppose that's true enough.
Seriously? They describe their own product in such terms now? Or was their site hacked or some such?
No' date=' they don't describe it in truthful terms like that. They used flowery marketing speak to make it sound attractive and useful to anyone who might be interested in it. The reality is' date=' based on what their site now says, that's precisely what it is. It's as bad, or probably worse, than every argument Dwip has made against GFWL in this topic. I say worse, because M$ has no universal kill switch to terminate your right to play any games that might use their client just because something went wrong with a transaction.Actually, I dare say, their points system makes screwing people that way impossible. So they have no motivation to cut you off at the knees for bank errors. You just don't get the points you thought you paid for. I think I can live with that rather than suddenly finding out one day I'd be unable to play Skyrim because some other unrelated thing fucked up. Although, since I will be buying retail disc, I can't be entirely cut off. Cracks FTW.[/quote'']Well, I suppose there is always that option, though is there anything under Steam preventing you from burning your own installation disks? You know, in case Steam ever goes under...
Now see' date=' [i']this[/i] is the real crux of the debate to me. I don't know that Steam is really nearly as evil as Samson's trying to paint it' date=' nor as holy as Kayle seems to feel, but the idea that you won't even be able to install a copy of the game that was retail bought on disc without it being attached to Steam (potentially from some other game's install) is pretty bothersome.[/quote']It is but one core component of the argument. Single player games have zero reason to require the integration of a multi-player gaming platform.
Well, to me, it's the heart of the debate, but I do understand your position too.
I think the kill switch is actually far more insidious though' date=' and I've seen nobody successfully defend it. Probably because it's indefensible to even have one.[/quote']I can't argue that point, I have to agree that their having a kill switch that affects games you've bought from them globally seems wrong on several levels to me, but the fact that it can impact even games you didn't buy from them is pretty indefensible.
Also' date=' people claim Valve would be cool and detach all the games from the client if they were to go under. Anyone with half a brain knows that will be the least of their worries should the day come that they're bankrupt and can't pay the bills. It could also happen sooner than you think if people like my two friends ever band together and file class action suits for fraud against Valve. Personally, even if Skyrim is attached to it and I have it on PC, I will welcome the day when Steam is wiped from the face of the Earth and Valve is a smoking ruin brought down by such a lawsuit. They have it coming.[/quote']I couldn't tell you if Valve has it coming, but I can tell you I've watched plenty of gaming companies fold over the years and it's been pretty rare for one to be good enough to ensure their last act was a sacrifice for the sake of their customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Somewhat related to the topic of Steam' date=' be glad we're not all in Canada: http://www.antiubb.com/Australia-like bandwidth capping with penalizing extra costs for exceeding it. The guy obviously isn't familiar with Australian internet either because both prettyfly and Fury have said they have quotas. I'd also question the claim that the US is poorer than Canada but that's not really relevant to the issue.[/quote']I'm not certain I see the tie to Steam, but.. nice rant. I also question whether the US is poorer than Canada, but I know I'm poorer than some Canadians. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On my connection I can usually get up to about 120-150kb/s' date=' so I know what you mean about the idea of downloading something that big taking forever, but for my concerns, I'd be far more fearful of the size compared to my quota limitations. I doubt I could pull 12gb in the five hour window I get at night, and the system would definitely not let me pull it outside of that window.[/quote']I'd have to go try it again, but when I last downloaded the big Nehrim installer, which is 1.6GB, the estmated time to download was several hours. I canceled it and got the server to pull it overnight while I slept. Having no quota, yes, I can do this.Let's say this was a Steam game and I wanted it badly enough to forfeit my consumer rights to get it.In the time it took to download, I could have taken a shower, gone to the store, bought the game, watched a movie in the theater, stopped for pizza on the way home, and had time to consume the entire pizza, watch a TV show, and then sit down to install the game afterward. All before Steam would have been close to done downloading it. This is not the halmark of high speed internet.I shudder to think of all the things I could do while waiting on 12GB to download. Unless I miss my guess, this would be > 24 hours at present speeds on my PC. That's not my definition of convenient by any definition of the word. I'm just not THAT lazy I'm afraid.
I would've thought asshattery like Giskard would've been a greater impetus but I guess when you start combining such things... either way, it's really a shame that you're considering giving up on computer games and modding.
I can ignore Giskard. I generally do in fact. I wouldn't be able to ignore Valve if they shut off my game for arbitrary and fraudulent reasons.On that subject, there is a thread on the first two pages of the Steam forums where they did exactly this. One guy lost 90 games due to giving his copy of F:NV to a friend without realizing he'd need to prostrate himself in front of Valve to transfer the disc key. The fanatics there all piled on to him claiming he should have known better. Why would you if you bought retail box? It's physical property. Serves as a fine example of what I don't want happening. Two people got banned from the forums in that thread, and the thread itself locked, though after 12 pages. I guess Valve doesn't want bad things said about them despite it being the truth.
You've seriously never registered anything?
Not online, no. I have occasionally sent in physical registration cards though. Know why? They can't prevent me from putting them in mailboxes because I didn't give them my phone number. The online forms can, because they're generally hardcoded to demand it, and some of them are smart enough to realize 000-000-0000 is invalid. A blank spot on the paper form serves the same purpose. I don't see any reason for them to need that info.
Well, I suppose there is always that option, though is there anything under Steam preventing you from burning your own installation disks? You know, in case Steam ever goes under...
No, you can burn backups of Steam stuff. Which I suppose is nice, but that won't remove the DRM protection. You'd still need cracks for that, but I guess it beats being completely out the purchase price of your games.
I couldn't tell you if Valve has it coming, but I can tell you I've watched plenty of gaming companies fold over the years and it's been pretty rare for one to be good enough to ensure their last act was a sacrifice for the sake of their customers.
Very few game companies last longer than 5 years. It's a rare thing for one to last 10. Of those that did, they usually went on to become publishing houses like EA and Bethesda. Not just developers. There are people involved in the Steam debate who have been around gaming for 30 years and who to this day still play 15-20 year old titles. And they can because they don't have draconian DRM attached.
I'm not certain I see the tie to Steam, but.. nice rant. I also question whether the US is poorer than Canada, but I know I'm poorer than some Canadians. ;)
It's an indirect tie. But consider. Downloading games is a sure way to run up a 25GB/mo quota, yes? It changes the economics of the entire setup when users suddenly realize that downloading 2 things the size of F:NV will cost you dearly in payments to the ISP. As much as I despise quotas and bandwidth overcharges, if it causes Steam to go out of business I'm happy to see it become more widespread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'm about done with the argument for the moment, but do want to respond to a few things here:

Also' date=' apparently Valve went off and changed the rules on what Steamworks is and does in the last 6 months or so because their site now describes it as a truly invasive and aggressively intrusive system that deeply integrates with the game. So fuck. I'd hate to have to circumvent things by using a crack, but it's starting to sound like that's going to be the only viable solution to playing the game without all the bullshit. Especially since people on the BGS forums are starting to claim Todd confirmed Skyrim will be a Steam release [/quote']Dunno, I'm not sure if that's entirely what I understood it to be previously, but post-Civ 5/COD:BO/F:NV, yeah, I pretty much believe it. Again, it's kind of in for a penny in for a pound and doesn't bother me a whole lot, but I'm me.And I haven't seen anything one way or another with regards to Steamworks on Skyrim, though I spent some time looking after you said it. Obviously they'll be selling it through Steam among other things, but as you say, not the same thing.
It might have made getting patches slightly less hassle for lazy people who can't surf webpages' date=' but it did nothing at all to curb piracy. There are pirate versions of F:NV out there in great numbers if you know where to look. They were there on the day of the actual release too, with no Steam attached. Word has it that the pirate version of the game was even more stable than the Steam version.[/quote']I would note that I don't really disagree with this, just for the record, although I will say that post-patch F:NV is incredibly stable, and runs for 10 hours at a time, which isn't something I've experienced with any other Bethesda game ever. Success rates for other games are pretty similar, although I hesitate to ascribe that to Steam, per se. Modern game design, maybe the absence of the blight of Securom, who really knows. Too, for whatever it's worth, Valve's own games tend to be pretty rock solid. I had Left4Dead 2 system lock a couple times last night, but that wasn't L4D2, that was me being too stupid to clean my fan filters.Word has it, obviously, that the release version of F:NV was a huge pile of bugs, but I didn't play the release version, so, you know.
So' date=' since the two of you decided to take up this particular debate within a topic that's specifically geared towards making pretty much nothing off-topic anyway.. what do the two of you (or others too, for that matter) think of the Wii? My wife's been wanting one for awhile now because her folks got one and she really thinks she'd like it enough to use it far more than we ever get around to using our PS2 (the only gaming console we still have here).[/quote']I don't have a whole lot of experience with the Wii. My parents have one, and they really love it. I think they're too busy to do it right now, but for a while they were spending an hour or so a night playing games. My mother is about as far from being a gamer as you can possibly get (unless it says Ms. Pac-Man on it and looks like an Atari), so whatever that's worth. I played it a bit, mostly various parts of Wii Sports, and thought it was ok, definitely the first controller since the N64 I could actually play on, but I like different sorts of games than we had, so it wasn't hugely compelling there. Take that for what it's worth.
Actually' date=' unless my memory has somehow suddenly failed me altogether, we've had games that phoned home with registration info since long before the internet really even existed. In fact, I still have quite a few older games that require you to complete some mini survey and then choose to use your modem to phone in your answers, print it for faxing, or print it for mailing as the last step in installation. A simple one time activation/registration doesn't actually bother me at all.[/quote']My experiences here are much as Samson's - there are games that ASK you to register, sure, but I can only think of maybe one that MAY have required registration, and I can't really remember over the space of 10-15 years what it even was.Man, remember that? When mailing in registration cards was some huge deal? Oi.
Yes' date=' it must, because despite what Dwip thinks, I don't have the capacity to handle a download of that magnitude. The theoretical capacity of my line is 3Mbit, which roughly translates to about 350KB/s. I have *NEVER* seen actual throughput that high though. The closest I've come is about 300KB/s off of some linux site I was grabbing an ISO from. A 650MB ISO which took a great deal of time to acquire due to the fact that the 300KB/s wasn't sustained over the entire download period. That was on the server btw, which for whatever reason seems to be able to maintain more steady speeds. I simply can't imagine trying to push 12GB over the wire through to the Windows box with as flaky as that usually is even for smaller files.[/quote']A couple of things which may only be marginally comforting here, but which are nevertheless true:- I have roughly equivilent cable, for the record.- Steam has extraordinarily fast servers, and I was able to sustain pretty high speeds over sustained periods. Yeah, it still took a while, but.- Steam has a pretty good download manager in place that can be paused and resumed at will, auto-pauses while you're playing games, and such things. I realize that's not really a perfect solution, but it does exist. You're not being forced into some multi-gigabyte in one go suicide pact.All of that said, I'm fully aware how aggravating that sort of thing would be for Conner. Still, I was able to push about 6 or 8 GB down to my box without any real trouble other than having to dick around on the internet for a few hours.
Somewhat related to the topic of Steam, be glad we're not all in Canada:
Not that I'm really in a position to know, but the Canadians I hear talk about the subject make it sound like Canadian telecom as a whole is like something out of the Dark Ages. Ridiculous rates for cell phone data plans kept coming up a lot.
I couldn't tell you if Valve has it coming, but I can tell you I've watched plenty of gaming companies fold over the years and it's been pretty rare for one to be good enough to ensure their last act was a sacrifice for the sake of their customers.
Considering that every Valve game ever released is almost universally loved by the people who play them, considering how much money Steam must be making them I can't say I'm really worried by this. For that matter, Valve has gone on record a number of times saying they'd get ways to unlock games if Steam ever does go under. Which, you know, maybe. Believe it when it happens.Opinions justifiably differ on the matter, however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So on the whole bandwidth issue:

I would have LOVED to buy Star Wars The Force Unleased: Ultimate Sith Edition... but I couldn't. I noticed that the install size was 30GB.
30 fucking GB people. That's insanity no matter what type of connection you have. Just how do they expect this to work out for, say, Canadians? I guess all of Canada just got the bad news.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd recommend an Xbox 360 over the PS3 [...]
Since this topic is called random stuff I'll take that up. [...]

So' date=' since the two of you decided to take up this particular debate within a topic that's specifically geared towards making pretty much nothing off-topic anyway.. what do the two of you (or others too, for that matter) think of the Wii? My wife's been wanting one for awhile now because her folks got one and she really thinks she'd like it enough to use it far more than we ever get around to using our PS2 (the only gaming console we still have here).[/quote']Well, the Wii is an incredibly fun console, but only for short periods of time. The wii had a lot going for it for a while, but you were always hampered by the Wiimote. It always had to be in your hand or on your person, or the Wii had no idea what you were doing. At the start, that was great, it still is great. I still enjoy playing on the Wii from time to time, but the Wii isn't truely a frontrunner for console gaming. Not hardcore gaming anyway, the Wii is more for casual gaming. And it's strengths are more for the sports games like WiiSports, or WiiSports Resort, which are both fun in their own right. The one game for the Wii that actually has my attention and makes me want to go out and buy is Epic Mickey. Google it, it's a pretty fun looking game.For a long time the Wii didn't really have any competition in the "Active" gaming scene. "Active" gaming meaning you have to actually stand up and be active to play it. But now PS3 has the Move system which sadly is almost a direct rip-off of the Wii's system, except the PS3's Move is a little more queer looking. You have to hold what looks like a glowing torch ball to work with it, and honestly, I'd take the Wii over that anyday. But now the Xbox and Microsoft have stepped into the "Active" gaming scene with Kinect. and Kinect blows the other two out of the water. Kinect doesn't require anything but the Kinect sensor, and a Kinect enabled game. Once the Sensor is plugged in your body is the controller. You can control movies with a wave of your hand, and the games involve your whole body, and not just where the Wiimote or Move sensor is.Overall, the Wii is a great console if you're looking for casual gaming, it doesn't have any High Def support, and it's games are kind of limited, but fun. But it's not the only way to get that "active" experience anymore, and in my opinion, unless there's a game you want to play on it, like Epic Mickey, the Kinect or Move would be a better buy. I'm personally partial to the Kinect because of all the stuff it does in addition to just expanding the games into the "Active" category.But it's all going to boil down to what you and Dragona want to do. So if you do go to buy one, look into all the options, Kinect for Xbox 360, Wii, and Move for PS3. I'd reccommend Kinect, but that's my cup of tea, and your mileage may vary. But I'm loving controlling movies with my hands. >.>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

Support us on Patreon!

×