[RELz/WIPz] Unofficial Skyrim Patch

[Jumps-Down-Stairs]

I know this is a rather old fix, but I belive the error with Shor's Stone being an ebony mine, when NPCs say its an iron mine, is rather an error of dialog, rather then the ore itself.

 

The relevant bug is indeed quite old, and the comments are a mess because it was ported over from one of the previous bug trackers. But it's about Redbelly Mine. Shor's Stone is a town, and there are two mines nearby: Redbelly and Northwind. There are numerous reasons to believe Redbelly was supposed to be an iron mine, as various dialogue, quests, and external literature all refer to it as such. Northwind was previously an iron mine, but the USKP changed it to ebony in order to balance out the change to Redbelly. Seeing as Northwind is close to Shor's Stone, it should satisfy the lore conflict you raise.

[Makaan]

it should satisfy the lore conflict you raise.

Not really, as Northwind Mine isn't a mine that they actually mine, and naming the town after a mine you dont actually mine doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

As for the "external literature", PRIMA guides are probably the singular worst source you could ever cite as evidence of anything beyond Prima's known incompetence. They are consistently wrong about in-game aspects, due to being made with incredibly ancient versions of the game, as to be able to complete the guide and print it out in time for the game's release. The Fallout 3 guide was notorious for making things up, or taking things said in-game in ways they were never implied. I know several people who are still fighting to get that cancerious matieral removed from the Fallout wikis. All the prima guide proves is that Bethesda had it set as an iron mine when they gave a copy of the game to PRIMA, so they could make the guide, then realized the mistake, switched it to an ebony mine as the town's name suggests it should be, and then prima never updated since they were already printing it out.

 

Even TESO(canonisity debateable) outright calls Redbelly Mine an ebony mine in a loading screen.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loading_Screens

"Shor's Stone Mine - Sometimes called Redbelly Mine for reasons that can't be repeated in mixed company, the ebony mine at Shor's Stone is the foundation of the local economy, and generations of villagers have sent their young men and women down into the works, despite the dangers."

 

-The name of the town.

-The type of ore found in the mine in the vanilla game.

-The lore behind that type of ore.

-Other game's lore about the same place

 

All point to Redbelly Mine as being an ebony mine.

[Arthmoor]

This is Skyrim. Questionable lore from TESO is not a valid source of information. Considering even Kirkbride thinks they made half the shit up in TESO on drunken binge night, why should we have any reason to consider them a source of anything?

 

In-game dialogue trumps all other sources and the in-game dialogue clearly identifies it as an iron mine.

[Makaan]

Considering even Kirkbride thinks they made half the shit up in TESO on drunken binge night, why should we have any reason to consider them a source of anything?

Actually he doesn't, he got over that ages ago. In fact, both him and his wife-to-be Lady Nerevar have said they LIKE Lawrence Schick's, and TESO's contributions to the lore for the most part.

 

IIRC they even hang out with him often.

 

In-game dialogue trumps all other sources and the in-game dialogue clearly identifies it as an iron mine.

By that logic shouldn't the unoffical patches have moved Andurs from Whtierun to Windhelm as per what Alessandra said in her quest dialog instead of changing her audio, and shouldn't the thalmor have been switched to be using Daedric arms and armor as per that one Altmer in Soltiude who hangs out with Erukur?

 

The numerious audio changes you yourself have made in the patches pretty much prove that in-game dialog can be very wrong becuase of a lot of it being left over from previous versions of the game, and the audio never being updated to refelct those changes.

 

As said before, given the name of the town, the ore found in the mine in the vanilla game, the lore behind that ore, and other game's saying its an ebony mine, theres far more evidence that shows its supposed to be an ebony mine then one or two dialog lines saying iron.

 

The only other comparison I can think of is if Whtierun was named "The city of kyne's tree", and then you moved the gildergreen outside Whiterun to some location becuase an NPc said it was there, obviously, the NPC's dialog doesn't make sense given the towns name, and the lore behind the gildergreen.

[Arthmoor]

This is not going to get changed after all this time. You have not presented an adequate case to overturn the prior discussion and the decision that resulted from it.

 

Trying to make a case with weasel logic will get you nowhere. So will knowingly twisting my words. I take a very dim view of people who do that.

[Makaan]

Trying to make a case with weasel logic will get you nowhere.

How is it weasel logic to show how the name of the town connects to the lore behind the type of ore that the town not only had in the vanilla game's relase, but is also stated to have an an entirely canon, if we like it or not, other game?

 

I hoenstly dont know what else there is to show.

-We know that ebony is considered the blood of gods from Morrowind era lore.

-This in turn connects to the name Shor's Stone, aka stone made of/from Shor, aka the blood of Lorkhan.

-This is turn connects to the ore found in the game at relase, which is ebony.

-This is turn is supported by another offical TES game, which says its an ebony mine.

-Iron ore had zero past lore connecting it to the the gods in any way shape or form.

 

The only other thing I can think of would to be get Pete Hines to say it was supposed to be, but hes way to busy to do that.

 

All in-game lore from games before and after Skyrim point to ebony instead of iron, which matches up with what the devs put in the game.

 

So will knowingly twisting my words. I take a very dim view of people who do that.

Twisting words implies I somehow changed the meaning behind them. You said in-game dialog trumps everything, and I pointed out several examples of where that was proveably wrong.

"In-game dialogue trumps all other sources and the in-game dialogue clearly identifies that Andurs is in Windhelm"

"In-game dialogue trumps all other sources and the in-game dialogue clearly identifies that The Dominion soldiers use daedric equipment"

 

I am sorry the way you worded that happened to be wrong in other instances.

[tyrel68]

How is it weasel logic to show how the name of the town connects to the lore behind the type of ore that the town not only had in the vanilla game's relase, but is also stated to have an an entirely canon, if we like it or not, other game?

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I am sorry the way you worded that happened to be wrong in other instances.

I appreciate your love to have a good argument...i really do.

You are never going to win one on the internet but even if your right, all you can do is present your case and let it go! Nothing is gained by beating a dead horse aside pissing people off!

.......again personal knowledge......

ALSO THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO ARGUE THE POINT!!!!!

Place a ticket in the bug tracker and if it gets adopted or shot down, so be it.

[Makaan]

all you can do is present your case and let it go!

That would fundamentally defeat the purpose of rational debate if one wasn't willing to actually debate his point, and just let it go immediatly after making the first statement.

But I have to ultimately agree with your overall point, the...inability...to get anything changed on the unofficial patches after it has been changed is rather infamous amongst most TES sites, I didn't really think I had much of a chance of being the one person in a million that magically got a change changed again, but I at least had to try, if not for the sake of the lore of a series I hold dear.

 

I will probably just edit the esp myself to remove it... maybe I could find someone on the nexus to split the word wbony in that one guy's dialog since I dont know hwo to do that myself.

[Arthmoor]

All in-game lore from games before and after Skyrim point to ebony instead of iron, which matches up with what the devs put in the game.

No. There are no games in the series that fall after Skyrim. Even if that were the case it wouldn't matter because the only evidence in consideration is the game itself and the official guide that Bethesda approved.

 

Twisting words implies I somehow changed the meaning behind them. You said in-game dialog trumps everything, and I pointed out several examples of where that was proveably wrong.

No. You attempted to make an invalid case out of it. Hence, weasel logic. Unless you're going to seriously now try and claim that because of one line of dialogue, Windhelm was intended to be the city of Arkay or something.

You are attempting to make your argument by way of absolutes. There is only one absolute which will change things at this point. A certified statement from Todd Howard himself that Shor's Stone was mean to be an ebony mine. A retconed 2nd Era source isn't going to cut it any more than it did when people were seriously trying to argue that the UOP should turn Cyrodiil back into a jungle.

 

 

 

But I have to ultimately agree with your overall point, the...inability...to get anything changed on the unofficial patches after it has been changed is rather infamous amongst most TES sites, I didn't really think I had much of a chance of being the one person in a million that magically got a change changed again, but I at least had to try, if not for the sake of the lore of a series I hold dear.

It's only infamous for that among those who whine but don't get their way in the end. People can tell you that we have indeed changed things after a rational argument with proper evidence was presented for the case. You have not done this.

[tyrel68]

That would fundamentally defeat the purpose of rational debate if one wasn't willing to actually debate his point and just let it go immediatly after making his first statement.

But I have to ultimately agree with your overall point, the...inability...to get anything changed on the unofficial patches after it has been changed is rather infamous amongst most TES sites, I didn't really think I had much of a chance of being the one person in a million that magically got a change changed again, but I at least had to try, if not for the sake of the lore of a series I hold dear.

 

I said this wasnt even the right place to be talking about this!!!! BUG TRACKER ENTRY!!!!!!

If Arthamoor says he aint doing it, he generally has a good reason and a lot of research. Just look at his rebuttal to the SMPC crap. I

Im not trying to sound like im bashing Arathmoor but i know he comes across gruff but think about the size, scope and crap he deals with and maintains  this patch!

Without him i doubt the USKP would be nearly as wide spread and that there would be dozens of splintered patch mods.

Im not saying one line let it go, im saying once you say everything you can....STOP. Repeating it generally doesn't help.

[Mael]

The in-game dialog, as I recall, supports that Shor's Stone's Redbelly Mine is a dried-up iron mine _in this video game_. I reached this conclusion after doing the quest in which you take an ore sample back to Shor's Stone from Riften, where the alchemist's wife in Riften confirms it to be ebony. After that, I think there is dialog that alludes to the discover of ebony in the mine putting Shor's Stone back on the map? My recollection is hazy.

This tells me that for all intents of purposes, Shor's Stone's Redbelly Mine is originally an iron mine, and during the time of Skyrim's plot, ebony was discovered and then it became an ebony mine. Why was it called Shor's Stone previously? Maybe in the timeline of Oblivion or Morrowind it was an ebony mine and dried up, leaving only iron. I really have no idea.

 

 

* Added Redbelly Mine to text for clarity

[Makaan]

-No. There are no games in the series that fall after Skyrim.

-Even if that were the case it wouldn't matter because the only evidence in consideration is the game itself and the official guide that Bethesda approved.

-Unless you're going to seriously now try and claim that because of one line of dialogue, Windhelm was intended to be the city of Arkay or something.

-A retconed 2nd Era source isn't going to cut it any more than it did

-when people were seriously trying to argue that the UOP should turn Cyrodiil back into a jungle.

-You have not done this.

-I meant in terms of realse... obviously.

-Guides which even a quick google search can prove are notoriously wrong.

-No, in fact, I was doing literally the opposite, by showing how one or two lines of dialog does not make something true, such as the obviously incorrect dialog of Melaran and Alessandra, and comparing it to the obviously incorrect dialog of Filnjar in Shor's Stone.

-Given that TESO was released AFTER Skyrim was, it technically holds highest canonisty. That's how canonistiy works, the newest relase is always the most true unless stated otherwise. A past game cant retcon something in a future one. That's not how retcons work, never has been.

-There is a VERY large difference between this and that, in that Oblivion itself outright stated in the Mythic dawn Commentaries that Tiber Septim chimed the land from a jungle into that generic garbage we got in Oblvion. Its estalbished lore he changed the land, so it doesnt make sense to change it back. whereas, in this case, nothing has firmly established that ebony somehow changed its connection to the gods.

-The point when establsihed lore isnt a valid argument is the point when all argument is nothing but 4chan levels of shitposting.

[Makaan]

 where the alchemist's wife in Riften confirms it to be ebony.

The ore sample you take back to her is quicksilver, not ebony.

[Mael]

You sir, are quite correct. I really remembered it being ebony! :sigh:

[Arthmoor]

Mael basically has it - for the purposes of Skyrim, it's an iron mine. All evidence points to that. Spoken dialogue wins out here because there's more of it in support of it being an iron mine that's drying out. Hence why in the bug tracker someone brought up the geology evidence to support why the red mist is there to begin with - which was argued convincingly at the time to point to someone on the game's team knowing the processes involved in running an iron mine out of ore.

 

TESO is 2nd era. As timelines go, that can never trump something that happens at least 600 years prior. That's how actual lore works. Not "it was released later in the real world" lore. Kirkbride even argues that canonicity is BS, and most people don't pay attention to even 1% of his ramblings.

 

In any case, if you dig into the actual timeline, 2E 582 is almost 1000 years prior. A hell of a lot can change even if we assume TESO is 100% correct that at that time Shor's Stone was a profitable ebony mine. It clearly is not that today, and in-game events point squarely at the iron mine becoming a profitable quicksilver mine in the not so distant future.

[Makaan]

-All evidence points to that

-which was argued convincingly at the time to point to someone on the game's team knowing the processes involved in running an iron mine out of ore.

-that can never trump something that happens at least 600 years prior. That's how actual lore works

-Kirkbride even argues that canonicity is BS

-and most people don't pay attention to even 1% of his ramblings.

-It clearly is not that today, and in-game events point squarely at the iron mine becoming a profitable quicksilver mine in the not so distant future.

-Besides the name of the town, and the ore found in it in the vanilla game, along with other game's showing it as an ebony mine.

-We are talking about a game full of literal magic, where this same gods blood not only created the Chim-El-Abiel, but also ash monsters in the Dragonborn. and was brought ot tamriel by a time traveling robot sent into the distant past by Kyne. Red mist is nothing.

-It actually can, such as how the formation of the Aldmeri domion being changed from 2E840, as stated in the pocket guide relased aroiudn the time of Tiber Septim, to 2E 582 as stated in TESO.

-No, he actually argues that the people own the series, and that with C0DA, everyone can have thier own canon.

-Except everyone in the TES lore community, which is a rather sizeable group. Even hordes of people on 4chan listen to MK almost religiously.

-You right, its clearly a failing ebony mine since its almost out of ore and spiders have taken over the mine, though it has the chance to become ap rofitable quicksivler mine in the future

[Arthmoor]

Maybe you should go back to 4chan and argue with them instead. Apparently in this particular case, you are part of the 1%.

 

We have to deal with what's in front of us, and that means it's an iron mine due to the overwhelming in-game material saying so. Lore from other games is not a factor in this. Retconned 2nd Era lore would never be considered a valid source as that's 1000 years ago.

 

Just as we used the single passage in Mankar's Commentaries from the UOP to push back against the same lorehounds who insisted it was wrong and that the Pocket Guide was the gospel of Vivec or something and that Morrowind described Cyrodiil as a jungle a mere 6 years before Oblivion's slot in the timeline. It took months of standing firm on that before they finally gave up and went back to their caves. We're not going to be spending months on the Shor's Stone thing.

 

We have made our decision on the available evidence presented by Skryim. There is really nothing more to be said.

[Deathbydestiny]

I may not agree with some changes in the patches, or changes not being made, but I still trust what the uskp does. You can't make everyone happy and as Arthmoor said you need to stick with what you got

[Makaan]

-Retconned 2nd Era lore

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity

Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short

-http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retroactive

retroactive: extending in scope or effect to a prior time or to conditions that existed or originated in the past; especially :  made effective as of a date prior to enactment, promulgation, or imposition

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_Online

Release Date: April 4, 2014

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyrim

Release Date: November 11, 2011

 

April 4, 2014 > November 11, 2011

 

I honestly dont care about the mine stuff anymore, but please, for the love of all possible gods, stop using that word incorrectly. Place within the series timeline has never been a factor of retcons, in any series, ever, its always by newest real world relase.

 

Apparently in this particular case, you are part of the 1%.

It took months of standing firm on that before they finally gave up and went back to their caves.

Please dont try to "name call" myself or others, its a terrible type of fallacious argument, and I honestly would except better from someone of your stature.

 

 

BUT ANYWAYS, on the subject of bugs

• Three mills have activators which do not function properly, even with Hearthfire installed: Battle-Born Farm, Chillfurrow Farm, and Pelagia Farm.
• Three mills exist which do not have activators at all: Loreius Farm, Salvius Farm, and Snow-Shod Farm.

from UESP. this is an increadbily odd inconsistancy between how mills are treaed in-game/

[Arthmoor]

>wiki links

>thinks they have weight here

 

^ Imagine those are green.

 

You seem to think that chronological release order in the real world means anything at all. It doesn't. If you want to go down the road of "The One True Fan" that would never fly. One does not get to rewrite Skyrim based on 1000 year old timeline data from TESO just because TESO came out in 2014.

 

Now. As for the mills. I'd have to go double check it, but I'm pretty sure that Hearthfire only changes one particular type of mill. Like the one you find at Merryfair Farm outside Riften. They did so by editing the base object, which would have converted any placements of it in the game. That list of other mills, as I recall, are of a different type that can't be used by the player to begin with.

[Makaan]

>wiki links

>thinks they have weight here

 

You seem to think that chronological release order in the real world means anything at all. It doesn't. If you want to go down the road of "The One True Fan" that would never fly. One does not get to rewrite Skyrim based on 1000 year old timeline data from TESO just because TESO came out in 2014.

-implying release dates are some sort of subjective information.

-http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retcon

Heres a dictonary citation for retcon if that pleasues you

 

It does? it always has? Such as how the newer Star Wars trilogy retconed several aspects of the older trilogy despite the newer trilogy taking place before the older one. thats how retcons work in every series ever since.... forever, its even true for retcons made to greek religious myths about Zeus and the other gods.

 

Now. As for the mills. I'd have to go double check it, but I'm pretty sure that Hearthfire only changes one particular type of mill. Like the one you find at Merryfair Farm outside Riften. They did so by editing the base object, which would have converted any placements of it in the game. That list of other mills, as I recall, are of a different type that can't be used by the player to begin with.

I do belive you are right in that only one type of them was changed, im not 100% which type it was, but even then, both types had activators so that you could do the animation, even if it didnt DO anything, so several of them still need activtors to play that animation, even if they dont need to full functionality of making flour that hearthfire gave the other types.

[Makaan]

Welp, figured it out, the REAL bug with the mills is that the mills at Battle-Born Farm, Chillfurrow Farm, and Pelagia Farm have activators, yet hitting E doesn't cause them to activate since they have no handles for the player to grab onto, nor should they since they are not hand driven mills, but function automatically due to the windmill built around them.

 

The mills at the Battle-Born Farm, Chillfurrow Farm, and Pelagia Farm need to have thier activators REMOVED, in order to be like the ones at Loreius Farm, Salvius Farm, and Snow-Shod Farm, which are of the same type, yet DONT have activators, becuase the milling device is automatic, due to the windmill, instead of hand driven, and thus there is nothing for the player to grab onto, or DO for that matter.

 

I will add it to the bug tracker, is the aniation section right for that? or the item section? I can never tell in situations like these.

 

*edit* ehh, ill just put it under locations.

[lmstearn]

From our own beloved Wikipedia:

 

 

Ebony is a dense black wood, most commonly yielded by several different species in the genus Diospyros

 

Who wouldn't have given Beth better marks for consistency if there were cypress mines, sandalwood mines, cedar mines - sequoia mines?

 

 

A certified statement from Todd Howard himself that Shor's Stone was mean to be an ebony mine

 

Well if there is such strong feeling about it - I support you!

 

OTOH, even if he did, the patchers here base all their work on divining the intentions of Beth at_the _time_of_publish- or at least at the time of issue of the last official patch. If continuity is top priority, why cannot there be representations made to the ESO team to change their mine back to quicksilver?

 

We can only hope that there will be an ESO_Lore mod available for not only Skyrim but all previous ES games. Perhaps an interesting exercise for modders dealing with  compatibility issues in Skyrim_Lore mods for earlier games & so on. Good luck to them.

[Arthmoor]

Heh. Pretty sure TES ebony has little to do with IRL ebony

 

If Todd did come to us and say "hey bozos, it's an ebony mine" there's still the issue of there not being an adequate audio sample anywhere in the spoken lines to be able to work with. More than one NPC calls it an iron mine, and they're not the same voice type, so it gets quite complicated to address it that way.

 

Plus, given the circumstances in Skyrim, Northwind Mine isn't so far removed from the town that they couldn't have been up there mining ebony before the dragon shows up to roost nearby - keeping them from getting at it - and causing their current circumstances where a dying iron mine is all they have left. 1000 years ago, there was no dragon roosting near Northwind Mine.

[VaultDuke]

if i was to report an UV and vertex color error on the solitude mill, that is only visible outside (and with no clipping active; inside, like really inside) the solitude wall, you'd all laugh at me, right?