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Posts posted by DayDreamer

  1. I agree that the stories could be moved to their own category. I do like reading them from time to time. It brings back some of the feel of Andalay Bay's sites. Many of us have a story in mind as we progress. It's nice to see some written down.

    But posting them in General Discussion means they dominate the recents. When I'm looking in on a Sunday evening, I'm just trying to see all the recent topics at a glance.

  2. On 7/17/2021 at 7:58 AM, Adella said:

    You realise that many console players enjoyed Skyrim from release in Nov 2011 for about four years on purely vanilla….because there were no mods for us.  Millions (sic) of us thought it well worth playing back in the day hmmm.

    It is very sad that so many console players are willing to buy a game where the world gradually becomes perpetually bare and desolate, NPCs don't leave their homes, weapon racks and other activities don't work, many quests don't run properly, and the save games bloat so that eventually the game won't play anymore.

    If I'd known about the vast number of bugs, I'd never have bought the game. Because of the press reported bugs, I'd delayed buying the game until Feb 2012, expecting that the bugs would be fixed by then -- never imagining that Bethesda would actually add more bugs breaking things that already worked....

    To be honest, if I'd not invested so much time into US*P, I'd not still be reporting and fixing bugs. At some point, responsibility to the community became more important than the game itself.

    Someday, I hope to finish a run-through of the game. The last best try died after 500+ hours and 8901 saves. So far, 220 hours and 6326 saves.

  3. On 7/5/2021 at 10:05 PM, Elaura said:

    As for Ysolda, why not just leave her package out of it, altogether? Simply make her essential until the quest is done?

    There is Ysolda forcegreet dialogue, so it helps to have a forcegreet package to make that happen. She is essential (since official patch 1.5).

    There are dependencies in cleaning up the Markarth temple that depend on the Rorikstead stages. Likewise, there is Ennis dialogue conditioned on speaking to Ysolda that makes no sense in any other order than Rorikstead -> Whiterun -> Rorikstead. The quest stages are intended to be mostly linear, within an open world where they can happen partly out of order.

    The mistake in US*P is that the forcegreet package is missing a condition that you've talked to Ennis. Ysolda should not be telling you that she's tired of waiting for payment until you've been pointed to her by Ennis. Otherwise you get dangling objectives and leftover persistent objects.

    On 7/5/2021 at 10:05 PM, Elaura said:

    Also, if a person is using USSEP, they are no longer playing vanilla Skyrim.

    US*P is supposed to be only bug fixes: vanilla seemingly intended by the developers as revealed by underlying data. That's why the Alto Wine is replaced by Holy Water. The developers had made a quest Alias_DA14HolyWater, and the note explicitly says "Holy Water". There's an unused potion called Holy Water. My guess is that during development somebody stuck alto wine in the holy water alias as a placeholder until the graphics folks made them the holy water item, then forgot to update the alias. Call it a QA failure.

    Skyrim without US*P isn't worth playing.

  4. 4 hours ago, Sah said:

    Once you are told to go see Ysolda her behavior changes and will be waiting regardless of time (day/night) next to the well at the center of Whiterun, she will be there at the same spot when you return with the ring even if its 3am

    This is a US*P change. Particularly jarring for those who have married her. Vanilla, she doesn't change behavior, instead you have to find her. Should this be reverted?

    4 hours ago, Sah said:

    I have stumbled lots of times across Witchmist Grove and I have never once found Moira there

    Moira is created as you talk to Isolda. Vanilla, Moira remains forever until killed, and you are supposed to return her ring to Isolda. Isolda says "Don't forget you still owe me!". But there is no way to return the ring after the quest is over, which is a bug.

    US*P, if Isolda tells you about Morvunskar, Moira is disabled again and replaced by a generic hagraven. That fixes the bugs.

  5. 30 minutes ago, BlackPete said:

    The game can't tell the difference between the Alto Wine and Giant Toes that are acquired during the quest and those picked up elsewhere.

    There isn't any Alto Wine. The Wine alias is actually filled with "Holy Water", as is the Water alias. No problem, other than you have to carry 1 extra encumbrance.

    The Giant Toe was originally intended to be a Giant's club. It is annoying that they stack with non-quest toes, but that's a game engine issue. There are other items (such as follower bows) that have the same name, yet do not stack.

    There are no feathers. They are merely mentioned in the quest note.

    37 minutes ago, BlackPete said:

    The quest keeps track of where you meet Sam the first time

    That is kept in the DA14Start quest. It is supposed to be copied into DA14 quest at the latter start. If the alias doesn't fill due to engine timing issues, you can end up in a radiantly selected Inn. (Has not happened to me, but it looks like the possible explaination.)

  6. To make it work retroactively, copy the StageDone style conditions from the US*P Ysolda changes into the earlier Ennis dialogue and packages, so they operate similarly. Fairly straightforward.

    Found an error in the US*P Ysolda forcegreet package conditions. The result of the forcegreet dialogue is stage 100, not 130; 130 is later, transient, and immediately sets stage 135 (which is already correctly checked). Likewise, the forcegreet dialogue conditional should be stage 100, not 150; 150 is the end of the sequence. We really don't want repeated forcegreets. They are flagged as Once, but we know that doesn't always work.

  7. 5 hours ago, Elaura said:

    In addition, I'm not sure if it is vanilla or the result of a mod, but having the entire thing between Rorikstead and Witchmist Grove and then getting dumped at the Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath was jarring.
    That wasn't even where I talked to Sam. Also, my follower was left in Morvunskar instead of showing up in the tavern with me at the end.

    That's another potential bug. I'll look into it. You are supposed to be returned to where you talked to Sam.

    Another bug is that the "drunken night of revelry that crossed all of Skyrim" takes no time at all. It should take at least 24 hours.


    5 hours ago, Elaura said:

    Personally, I think a good way to resolve it is to make it linear, but with the option to skip any or all of it with high enough persuasion or enough gold.

    That looks like the original intent. USKP made it more parallel, adding a forcegreet package to Ysolda. That's what broke Ennis and the goat. The conditions are wrong. Ysolda shouldn't talk to you about this until you have talked to Ennis.

    Also, Ysolda hangs around outdoors until you complete the quest. That's not the original design, and a bit odd.

    Moreover, apparently Moira isn't even spawned until you talk to Ysolda (stage 100).

    While more parallel makes more logical sense, as all the events have happened "across Skyrim" at quest start, there are a lot of vanilla linear conditions. The current US*P approach is haphazard, and didn't handle all of the possible transitions.

  8. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:A_Night_To_Remember

    The progression is wonky. It seems to be logically parallel; once started, all the background events have already happened and could to be investigated individually.

    Instead, some of the quest stages are linear or forgotten. Arriving at Whiterun before Rorikstead causes Ysolda to forcegreet, but disables part of Rorikstead. Then, going to Rorikstead has no forcegreet, but you still have the objective. It actually makes no sense to ask about a goat, as you've never had the forcegreet about the goat. Yet asking still doesn't clear the objective.

    Looking at the other setstages, there are similar problems with Witchmist Grove, because you can skip it by pursuading Ysolda, whereas pursuading Senna and Ennis doesn't skip the next step.

    There are 2 ways to fix this, and the objective bugs.

    1. Force it to be more linear? (Ysolda doesn't talk until after Senna and Ennis.)
    2. Allow Senna, Ennis, Ysolda, and Moira to proceed in parallel?

    I'm in favor of #2, although it is a bit more work.

    Currently, there isn't a good way for Morvunskar to happen without doing some of the others. Ysolda is a bottleneck. That could be fixed by having everything be created at the start.

    The dialogue hints that it should remain live until you've returned the ring, even after persuading Ysolda to tell you about Morvunskar. So the Witchmist Grove objective needs to stay in the journal until the end. Currently it disappears after persuading Ysolda.

    There are other inconsistencies mentioned in the UESP notes. They could be cleaned up as well.

    Which should it be: more linear or more parallel?

  9. On 5/25/2021 at 7:54 PM, Arthmoor said:

    here was an old post on the old Jive forum at bethesda.net (which is long gone now) where SMKViper explained that it's part of how it enabled multithreading and he confirmed that how we initially planned this system out wouldn't have worked and that the refactoring into what you see now was a good call back in the day.

    Thanks, this is important to know. I'm wondering how many other places are affected by this "multithreading"....

    It does make it very hard to follow, and violates the usual teaching on structured programming and object methods.

    No wonder that we had such problems getting the weapon rack scripts to work. Running two parallel scripts was bad enough. If they could in turn be split into threads without any thread locking or coordination method, what a mess!

    Thanks also for printing out each retroscript running. In December, I'd reported the 4.2.4 variable changes in the log; the kind of thing that I've always checked. Never knew to check that a retroscript was running multiple times.


    On 5/26/2021 at 2:03 AM, SenorCorruptedSave said:

    I'd speculate that doesn't apply functions with returns values.

    Also, idempotency. Sometimes it seems to me that Bethesda didn't hire anybody with compiler or kernel experience.

    Back in the day (mid-1970s), we all took a semester systems programming class (multiprocessing scheduler), and a full year compiler class. As time went by, those became graduate level specializations. Nowadays, my colleagues complain kids just want to learn Rudy on Rails to get a job.

    Anyway, want to thank whomever SenorCorruptedSave might be (you really don't need to hide your name around here). Excellent detective work.

  10. 9 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

    Dumping them all into the main process checker would allow it to process them out of order which is something we don't want to happen.

    If Papyrus allows out of order parallel processing within a single function, then a lot of scripts aren't going to work. Could you cite an example?

    Calling the same function 3 different ways isn't a good programming practice. Invoking the serial sequence of functions as subfunctions just builds up the stack, another poor programming practice. All those redundant stage checks aren't good practice either.

    If it is required to make Papyrus work, then it needs to be better documented.

  11. That's an odd bit of coding.

    For one thing, there are two tests for

    2 hours ago, SenorCorruptedSave said:

    ( LastVersion < 424 )

    Are those supposed to be ElseIf?

    Running version USSEP 400, upgrading to 424. Doesn't this require running every Process() in the list? Why is it better to have 406 Process() call 407 Process() call 408 Process() et cetera?

  12. Then this forum package must be really easy to setup.

    A basic locked down version of wikimedia isn't that hard. As Bethesda did for Creation Kit. It's the backend multiuser multiwiki enhancements that add complexity and security issues. Bethesda didn't do them, so the Creation Kit wiki is very slow. UESP did a better job, but they also added a lot of specialized templates and name spaces.

    While I'm a former developer (and still on the tech list), the codebase has changed a lot in 15 years. So I'd not be of much help.

    Still, this forum package gets the job done. Just treat the OP as the Main page, and the rest as Talk page subsections, as is the practice for the big U*P releases and many of the mod releases.

  13. See old https://afktrack.afkmods.com/index.php?a=issues&i=17351 and new https://afktrack.afkmods.com/index.php?a=issues&i=31330

    @BlackPetehad attempted to fix the predators. I've discovered that also the prey have a Z problem.

    The 3 prey have a preferred path to town, so it is clear developers intended predators to follow prey into town. There is also dialogue mentioning animal attacks in town.

    This seems to slow the predators down somewhat, as they have prey to attack first.

    I've added a second patch that may help get the patrol in place sooner. No reason for all the patrollers to start in a block near the water.

    Please check that USSEP [000A4491] isn't a stray edit. I've found no log entry for it.

  14. Over all these years, I've never gotten very far in Skyrim. Since Feb 2012, I kept finding bugs, gave up for many months to play something else (Northgard this past year, No Man's Sky the year before that, Civilization going back to version 1 and the board game in 1980s), and eventually start over.

    The only character I've ever tried is always a Breton named Cormac or Camroc. My long-time persona Cormac an t-aislingeach is/was a bard in the Society for Creative Anachronism since 1976. As I'd discovered picking flowers in my earliest Skyrim run, the first innkeeper encourages me to use their lab, and the bard directs me to the Bards College, I've always played an alchemist-bard who is dependent on followers for help. He doesn't really fit in any of the main factions, but is willing to be recruited by any of them for a time. My goal is legendary alchemy and speech.

  15. 17 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

    bugs xEdit had with doing that and causing worldspace issues

    Could you place a warning at the top of the cleaning pages here? I didn't know, and only recently noticed obvious problems that caused me to search and find the warnings.


    17 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

    Either pick a different save from a different cell, or exit to desktop first.

    This needs to be prominently documented somewhere. Reload after death is probably important.

    Personally, I'm a rather tediously cautious role player, and rarely die. Simply by not doing a quest as soon as it is offered. By rule of thumb, wait at least 10 levels after it is offered. Unfortunately, there are some severe surprises, such as opponents that are always 1.2 or even 1.5 times your level. That's small at levels 5-10, but often insurmountable by level 30. So UESP warnings help, too.

    In my case, I've been frequently reloading in the same cell. I'm a "completionist", and like to hear what alternative answers they've recorded. Then pick the most interesting one.

    [I've changed the title to reflect that this is the most likely culprit, at least from my testing process.]

  16. On 4/23/2021 at 2:31 PM, DayDreamer said:

    MarkarthArnleifandSonsTradingCompany ArnleifandSonsIntroTrigger (DialogueMarkarthIntroArnleifandSonsScene)

    I've tested with the bAllTargetsInTrigger unchecked and the disable after enter checked. Because it's in an interior, there's no significant difference, other than now cleaning up the trigger itself afterward.

    The package order and trigger box seem to be organized so that this wouldn't trigger with the occupants sleeping. But they don't lock the door. That's a bug. All that seems to happen is they are standing in different places, yet still allow you to buy/sell immediately anyway. You can enter in the middle of the night and be invited to step up to the counter. That's another bug.

    The problem turns out to be their aliases in DialogueMarkarth. The packages are duplicated there. By adding a 8x16 schedule to the packages, they can fall through to their sleeping and eating packages.


  17. On 4/23/2021 at 2:31 PM, DayDreamer said:

    HelgenKeep01 MQ101SetStage500

    I've tested a new game with the bAllTargetsInTrigger unchecked. The result is subtle. Instead of it happening as soon as the player enters, it happens after both the player and Hadvar (in my case) enter. That is, ever so slightly later.

    However, carefully leave the disable flag unchecked. The disable is done by a parent. That seems to be an exclusive parent for this box. Maybe a naive design mistake. Or they added the disable after enter to the script sometime after designing Helgen.

    Looking around Helgen, they've used this same box+script with only the player in multiple places. Elsewhere, most places use the defaultSetStageTRIGPlayerOnly box and script instead.


  18. On 4/28/2021 at 2:35 PM, Arthmoor said:

    I don't use any of those so-called fixer plugins either and my game has never once encountered any of the terrible things they say will happen to it without them

    On my third test run, the problem has gone away.

    I'd made only 3 changes:

    • I've reverted to original data. I've not run SSEEdit Autoclean on any of the original game files.
    • Scrambled Bugs (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/43532) instead of Flora Respawn Fix. This patch fixes the engine problem directly, instead of running tens of thousands of OnUpdate events (that add tens of thousands of new objects).
    • Always Quit to Desktop before Load (Continue). The engine is not correctly cleaning up before Load. Only Quit to Desktop seems to ensure the environment is clean.

    Sadly, this makes the Load process painful. It's much slower. Requiring the .NET Script Framework (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/21294) is particularly slow.

    There are many extant examples of things not not correctly cleaned up before load. For example, folks have reported New Game will start on whatever day/time that a previous load had run. I've not verified any of them (many are unverifiable). But I'm thinking that using as ultra-clean practices as possible will avoid long term corruption.

  19. Has setup bug discussed in

    This scene's packages have timing conditions. When the player enters the trigger, they speak their lines from elsewhere (depending on time of day). It likely should use a different trigger, just as


    This quest has two nearly identical scripts:

    • QF_DialogueMarkarthBlacksmith_00025F00
    • QF_DialogueMarkarthIntroBlack_00025F00

    AFAICT, neither of them does anything. Bethesda couldn't get the scene to work properly? Changing name of quest causes duplicate script?



  20. I'd long held out and avoided upgrading my old CDMA flip phone. (I'd consulted for Qualcomm on Internet over CDMA in '93-95, and was a principal author of CDMA IS-99.) But Verizon stopped supporting it, so I'd finally had to change. Based on recommendations by friends, bought a Pixel.

    The first (and so far only) thing that I've downloaded is Signal. Some of my collaborators (Phil Karn, Perry Metzger, Niels Provos) had insisted on it. Once I'd installed it, discovered that nearly everybody in my existing contact list already was using Signal.

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